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Hi Jim,
I've only got a few minutes, (as usual), to
reply this morning, and I'd like to pay particular attention to the section of
your post immediately below. It is my contention that if you had, (if it
were possible to have, which I believe it is not), 'interest-free' money, there
would still be an imbalance.
This is very clearly revealed in a
simplified form in "The Veil of Finance", which is an excellent 'exposition' of
the REAL problem.
A 'debt' is still a 'debt', whether it
has interest appended to it or not. It is a 'call' by the lender upon the
borrower for that borrower to 'do' something, and as such is an external means
of control over one individual by another. To say that this 'doesn't
matter', as long as another 'debt' can be incurred to meet the first one, and
that there's no problem unless there's interest on it , doesn't strike me as
being the sound basis for either a very good social or economic
system.
But anyway, for the time being, I'll just deal
with the piece immediately below.
[Jim wrote:-] (And this has been
my criticism of the accounting proof offered by the banks and a member of the
Social Credit group that states that the loans (debt) and credits (money) are in
balance, and interest has no affect on this balance because it's bank
equity. But as I've always stated, by the TIME that bank equity has been
spent back in the system, more interest has accrued, because interest is a
function of time)
This reminds me again of the type of deductive
reasoning expressed in 'Zeno's problem'. You may not have seen it, Jim, so
I'll reproduce it here. Maybe you can see the
similarities.
A classic example is the problem of Achilles and the tortoise. In its
classical form, with the classical pre-suppositions, the problem is insoluble.
As stated by William James, the problem, or paradox as it is usually known,
runs: "Give that reptile ever so small an advance and the swift runner
Achilles can never overtake him, much less get ahead of him; for of space and
time are infinitely divisible (as our intellects tell us they must be), by the
time Achilles reaches the tortoise's starting point, the tortoise has already
got ahead of that starting point, and so on ad infinitum, the interval between
the pursuer and the pursued growing endlessly minuter, but never becoming wholly
obliterated," The modern mind can "see through" the problem at once
because we are the possessors of new points of view to encompass such paradoxes;
the problem has in fact vanished, and we concern ourselves with the more
practical problem: "Given that the tortoise and Archilles have such and
such speeds, and start with such and such a distance between them, how long will
it take Achilles to overtake the tortoise?"
And now I must be off. In the meantime I
hope others will give you a more detailed reply to the rest of the points
you've raised. Since it's Bill Ryan's 'accounting proof' you take such
exception to, would it not be better to at least allow him a chance to respond,
too? So we may all know just exactly where the differences lie?
I reallly do think we should broaden the discussion to a more public forum, and
have all points of view considered. In that regard, I've posted this to 'socialcredit@elistas.com ,
too. Talk to you later, Jim.
Take care,
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:32
PM
Subject: Re: It's Not Interest, Jim:
Wally responds
I'm going to copy a section that Douglas wrote on
A+B and add comments in red:
The A plus B Theorem, Saving, and the
Repetition of Payments Increasing Prices.
For the convenience of readers who have not Professor Copland's paper, or
the book in which this theorem is contained.
It is reprinted herewith:-"A factory or other productive organization has,
besides its economic function as a producer of goods, a financial aspect-it
may be regarded on the one hand as a device for the distribution of purchasing
power to individuals, ,through the media of wages, salaries, and dividends;
and on the other hand, as a manufactory of prices- financial values. From this
standpoint, its payments may be divided into two groups:-
"Group A-All payments made to individuals
(wages, salaries, and dividends).
"Group B-All payments made to other organisations
(raw materials, bank charges and other external costs).
"Now, the rate of flow of purchasing power to individualsis represented by
A, but since all payments go into prices, the rate of. flow of prices cannot
be less than A plus B. Since A will not purchase A plus B a proportion of the
product at least equivalent to B must be distributed by a form of purchasing
power which is not comprised in the description grouped under A."
(And my criticism of A+B is what Douglas thinks
comprises B, not that B does not exist. I argue that the only factor
that causes B is interest on debt created money, or what Douglas calls
usury. I will elaborate further below.)
It is fortunate that the criticism of Professor Copland is practically
contemporaneous with a criticism of the same theorem by Professor Robbins, as
it is possible to use either of them to confute the other. It is, however,
obvious that, at any rate, Professor Copland has not understood, what seems to
me to be, its fairly simple language, and what are the consequences which
might be expected as a result of its truth.
The A plus B theorem, then, may be said to be first, an assertion that,
under certain circumstances, almost universal in modern industry, which will
subsequently be specified, purchasing power cannot be equal to prices, if
purchasing power and prices are both considered as a flow, which is the
commonly accepted and correct method of regarding the matter. The second
aspect of the theorem is that it puts forward an explanation as to the
mechanism through which this disparity is produced. Obviously, the correct
method of approaching the subject, although not that commonly employed by
professional economists, is first ofall to ascertain if the situation does, in
fact, confirm the theorem. Now, fortunately, or unfortunately, it is not
necessary to seek very far for this confirmation. I do not suppose that
Professor Copland, or any responsible student of the economic situation would
deny that it is concerned with a problem of glut, still less would he contend
that it was a problem of scarcity. It is admitted that we can produce all we
want, but cannot buy or sell to the extent of our productive capacity.
(Agreed!)Without going over the
well-known ground covered by the literature of sabotage, such as the burning
of wheat as fuel because it cannot be sold or to keep up the price, the
destruction of millions of bags of coffee, the shooting of calves an the
Argentine plains, the restriction of rubber tapping, and merely emphasising
that this glut of actual consumable products does not take into account the
immense unused productivity represented by half-idle factories, large bodies
of unemployed, decreasing cultivation of farm lands, and unused processes far
increasing the productivity of agriculture, to name only a few of these
aspects of the matter, it is quite certain that the introduction of mechanical
power into the economic service of man has at least multiplied his productive
capacity by the ratio of his muscular energy to the power at his disposal,
that is to say, at least fifty times. It is highly probable that the
multiplying factor is considerably greater than this. An association of
American engineers and technologists at Columbia University remarks:
"The advent of technology makes all findings based an human labour
irrelevant, because the rate of energy conversion of the modern machine is
many thousand times that of man.
The total capacity of U.S. industrial equipment is one billion horsepower
which does the work of ten billion men or five ,times the earth's total
population." Both from observation, therefore, and by scientific deduction, we
are justified in regarding it as beyond all reasonable doubt that, from the
realistic or physical point of view, the world actually is rich and could be
much richer in real goods and services, and that economic want is an
anachronism.(Again, agreed so
far) On the other hand, we may regard Governments as
being spokesmen of the financial system, since it is by the sanction of
Governments that the existing system is maintained. It is claimed by these
governmental spokesmen that we are living in a period of great stringency,
that financial economy is necessary, both of the voluntary or saving
description and of the involuntary description, which may be for the present
purpose described as taxation. Obviously, these two pictures cannot be at one
and the same time true. We cannot be rich and poor, in an economic sense,
simultaneously. That is to say, the financial system does not reflect the
facts of the physical, economic, and production system. (Absolutely) Since fact and logic both
demonstrate that we are rich, while the financial system says that we are
poor, it seems beyond dispute that it is purchasing power which is lacking,
and not goods, or, in other words, that the collective prices of the goods for
sale are in excess of the purchasing power available to buy them.
(With all this I absolutely agree with Douglas, I
just disagree with the factors that cause this except one.)
Professor Copland seems to have some inkling of this in his
first paragraph, in which he remarks that: "With many others, Major Douglas
finds a disparity between consumers' spending power and production." (sic).
I am not specially concerned with any claims to priority, and am,
therefore, quite content to agree that I have an increasing body of
acquiescence on this point, although I do not gather that Professor Copland
admits it.
Turning to the specific criticism of the theorem, Professor Copland begins
by remarking as follows: "Taking the first part of this argument, it is
assumed that the so-called B payments are not distributed to consumers. This I
believe to be the fundamental fallacy of the Douglas Credit Analysis."
(And so do I with the exception of interest or
debt retired).
I think I am justified in retorting to the second sentence just quoted that
I think the first sentence is conclusive evidence that Professor Copland does
not understand the Douglas Credit Analysis. The B payments to which he refers
are specifically stated in the enunciation of it, to be payments made from one
producing organisation to another, and are,beyond dispute, the completion of a
cycle of cost accountancy. (Yes they
are)
I trust Professor Copland will not consider me unduly elementary if I
explain that a cost is created either by the application of paid labour
to production or by the allocation of book costs in respect of
previously-incurred expense, or by both together. Payments to labour
distribute purchasing power to consumers, who supply the labour as workers,
and create costs which go into prices of the goods that they produce.
The allocation of book costs does not distribute purchasing
power,(This is where I absolutely disagree with
Douglas, and will elaborate on why below.) but is the
presentation of a claim an purchasing power already distributed, and is
met, if it is met,by the inclusion of the sum claimed, in: price. B payments
area settlement of the combined claim produced in this way at every
separated stage of production. (This is
true, but when a book cost, or overhead is paid to an outside manufacturer,
that money used to pay him does not disappear. It still exists in that
manufacturer's bank account, and that money can still be used as purchasing
power to clear the product that the second manufacturer is producing.
This seems to me to be a major - no pun intended - point of confusion on
behalf of Douglas. I will elaborate further below.)
Fortunately, Professor Copland, while ignoring the diagram on page 31 of
The Monopoly of Credit, the book from which he is at the moment
quoting, includes a diagram of his own, which confirms my belief. It will be
noticed that in this diagram time is non-existent, (And this has been my criticism of the accounting proof
offered by the banks and a member of the Social Credit group that states that
the loans (debt) and credits (money) are in balance, and interest has no
affect on this balance because it's bank equity. But as I've always
stated, by the TIME that bank equity has been spent back in the system, more
interest has accrued, because interest is a function of
time)and apparently, to Professor
Copland, is of no importance. (Apparently, to some
people who use accounting proofs it's of no importance
either) That I am not misrepresenting him is, I think,
proved by his remark, on page 16 of his pamphlet, that it is "not relevant to
the point at issue" that "spending power distributed two years ago is not
available for consumption today. The several stages of production are in
progress at the same time."
Let us suppose that production is divided into five processes, all of them
in progress at the same time. Each of these five processes pays its workmen
weekly, and each pays £ lO in wages. Each one of the factories carrying out
the five processes allocates 100 per cent onto its direct labour in the form
of book charges, which is a very moderate average overhead charge. For the
moment we will leave out payments for materials. The total amount of wages
distributed in the week is £50. It seems to me to be merely perverse, to deny
that the price values or claims on the public created in that week are £ 100
while the purchasing power distributed is only £50. (Actually, the purchasing power distributed that week is
$100 because the money that went to "overhead" went to another manufacturer,
and is in his bank account which is still purchasing power to be
used.)When factory No. 4 sells its weekly
output to factory No. 5, it sells it for £80, and factory No. 5, if it
can sell at all, sells for £ 100. If Professor Copland cannot show me a week
in which, in the normal operation of the cost system, this process is not
going on, the only question at issue is whether the £50 of overhead charges
still exist in the form of purchasing power. It is not merely relevant; it is
the major portion of the problem.(It absolutely is
the major problem I have with Douglas' A+B as
presented) I might remark that if he can show me a
factory which does not allocate book charges, I will show him a factory which
is heading straight for bankruptcy.
In order to decide this question, we have to examine the nature of the
overhead charges, how they were created, and what financial processes have
been associated with them.(Yep) To
make the matter as simple as possible, I shall, for the moment, assume that
overhead charges are nothing but charges for the use of buildings and plant,
and at a later stage explain how this definition can be extended.
Before, then, each of the factories in the above illustration could
commence operation, it had to be built and equipped with machinery. There are
two methods by which this operation could have been financed. The first is
that it could have been financed out of savings, the method commonly suggested
by orthodox financial authorities as that by which capital expenditure is
financed. It is very questionable whether much modern finance is done this
way.(Absolutely)Assuming this
course to be pursued, the money to buy the plant must have appeared in the
cost of some previous product, and therefore its mere saving causes a
deficiency of purchasing power to that extent.(That is true, but the labour used to build the new
factory, which was being used to produce consumer goods, is now making the
economy produce less consumer goods, because it's building a capital
good, so purchasing power should come out of the system to reflect this
decrease in the production of consumer goods) If it is
now applied to pay the wages, etc., necessary to produce the new buildings and
plant, quite obviously these new buildings and plant are produced without the
creation or distribution of any fresh purchasing power.
In other words, the money creates a second price value, but does not
produce any fresh money. (Fresh money is not
needed to cancel costs if it is circulated more than once, and I think Douglas
is confused in this matter) This is the simplest, but by no
means the only, example of a sum of money appearing more than once in series
or chain production, and producinga cost on each occasion without creating
fresh purchasing power.
From the ordinary point of view, the people who put up the money are
legitimately entitled not only to a profit on this money, but also to get it
back again in full, since in their case the money may be assumed to represent
past effort, so that the factories in question must make a charge on each
article turned out which will provide the money to meet these claims.
(Absolutely, and I have always stated that I agree
that it's fair to charge interest on pre-existing money saved or
invested)The only objection to this perfectly fair assumption
is that, in the aggregate, the public have not got the money.
The second method, and probably the method by which most modern financing
is done, under cover of a smoke screen provided by comparatively small
subscriptions from the public, is that some financial institution actually
creates the money, taking debentures on the new factories as security.
Ethically, there is every difference between money created by a stroke of the
pen and money acquired as the result of years of effort, but I am not at the
moment concerned with ethics. (Absolutely, and
that is why when people learn that bank loans are just created money, they are
appalled, but I agree with Douglas in that I'm not concerned with the ethical
implications of this at the moment.) At first sight it is a better method, considered as an
isolated operation. When the new factories come into existence, new
money is distributed to the men who built the factories. But there are two
practical objections, leaving aside any question of ethics. The new money or
credit is claimed by the financial institution as its property, and therefore
when it is lent creates a debt against the public.(Not true, the debt is also a credit. The "property" of
the money belongs to both the bank and the loanee. This is double entry
bookeeping, as the loan is entered as a debt (iou) and a credit
(deposit)). At the same time, being distributed in
advance of consumable goods, it tends towards true inflation. (I concur, and is the problem with debt created investment
as opposed to real savings). The debt differs in nature
from the debt created by private finance in exactly the same way that a debt
to foreigners differs from an internal debt-its repayment actually takes money
out of the country. If a rise of prices has occurred, it is repaid twice over,
once in increased prices and again on redemption. Secondly, there is no
provision in this method of financing for the money required to pay the
interest on the debentures, which, in fact, can only be paid, if it is paid,
by the issue of fresh money to pay it, which, under existing
circumstances, comes from the same source, that is to say, the financial
system. (Douglas is right at the precipice
here. He has found his inbalancing factor, and the factor which forces
us to produce more debt, but watch as he steps away from this
revelation)From this point of view, it is the difference
between usury and profit-a difference clearly drawn in the Middle Ages. (And a difference I've pointed out on many occasion, so
from now on when I speak of interest, I'm going to use the word usury which
Douglas coins here to maintain clarity, because there is a difference between
interest charged on pre-existing money, and interest charged on debt created
money.)There is an additional
factor, perhaps more important than any of these, and that is that,
either by directly calling in the debentures or by selling the debentures to
the public and calling in public overdrafts, financial institutions can, and
most unquestionably do, recall the money equivalent to the plant value at a
greater rate than this plant depreciates. (Yes,
and this is mostly caused by the charging of interest, instead of repaying the
loan over the active life of the asset as it depreciates, the loanee pays back
that amout + interest.)
It is therefore, I think, incontestable that, either wholly or in part, the
purchasing power to pay overhead charges on a scale which is legitimate from
the plant owner's point of view does not exist, except in times of wholly
excessive capital production or quite abnormal exportation. (Yes, but the only "overhead" charge which can't be paid
back without access to more loans is interest based on
usury.)It is now necessary to see to what
extent this conception of overhead charges can be extended, and I think that a
little consideration will make it clear that in ,this sense an overhead charge
is any charge in respect of which the actual distributed purchasing power does
not still exist, (Yes, but it appears that Douglas
thinks that when a cost is cancelled, the money, or credit, that cancelled
that cost ceases to exist, or is cancelled itself. This is not true, and
that credit exists to cancel more costs as it is circulated, until such a time
as it is used to pay back a debt.) and that practically this means any charge created at a
further distance in the past than the period of the cyclic rate of the
circulation of money. There is no fundamental difference between tools and
intermediate products, and the latter may therefore be included. Admittedly,
at this point we get into a certain difficulty, both to ascertain the average
rate of circulation of money, and the antiquity of the various charges made,
but the disparity is so great that, qualitatively, there is no difficulty in
proving the point.
In Great Britain, for instance, the deposits in the Joint Stock Banks are
roughly £2,000,000,000. In rough figures the annual clearings of the clearing
banks amount to £40,000,000,000. It seems obvious that £2,000,000,000 of
deposits must circulate twenty times in a year to produce these clearing-house
figures, and that therefore the average rate of circulation is a little over
two and a half weeks. (Douglas seems to
acknowledge the circulation, or velocity of money, here)At this point it may be desirable to deal with the common
error that the circulation of money increases its purchasing power, an error
which seems implicit on page 19 of Professor Copland's pamphlet, where he
remarks: "A given unit of money will circulate many times in a unit of time.
It will make many payments, because it has what economists call velocity of
circulation." I think that what Professor Copland means by this is that, if I
pay £ 1 to the butcher for meat and the butcher pays the £ 1 to the baker for
bread which the baker has supplied to the butcher, then two debts are
liquidated. This is a complete and major fallacy. The butcher incurred costs,
perhaps from a farmer in respect of cattle supplied, who in his turn possibly
borrowed the £1 from a bank. In any case, if the butcher uses my £ 1 to pay
the baker, he has broken the chain of repayment from me to the farmer and
ultimately to the banker, and the costs which were created when the farmer
sold his cattle to the butcher are not liquidated. (But the baker could buy meat from the butcher, who then
has $1 to pay the farmer, who then can use the one dollar to cancel the
debt. The credit doesn't disappear because it's given to the baker, the
baker can then use the dollar to buy meat in exchange for the bread which he
sold to the butcher, and then the butcher can use this same dollar to cancel
other costs. Like I stated previously, I can clear the market of
$1,000,000 dollars in costs with one dollar so long as I circulate it
$1,000,000 times. Now if the cost of the meat the butcher supplies, is
exacly equal to the cost of the cattle which the farmer supplies to the
butcher (i.e. one dollar), and when receiving the dollar spends it on bread,
instead of spending it on clearing his debt to the farmer, THEN THE BUTCHER
SHOULD GO IN DEBT. He has just spent money on something for which he has
made no profit. So the butcher should go in debt, to pay back the
farmer, who in turn pays off his debt to the bank. So now the farmer is
out of debt, and the butcher is in debt. $1 of debt was created to
cancel a $1 of debt, and the aggregate debt did not change. It only
change as to who has the debt)The
clearing-house figures just quoted contain a large number of. "butcher-baker"
transactions, and these must be deducted in estimating circulation rates. The
vital fact is, of course, that one unit of money can circulate an indefinite
number of times through the costing system, in each case creating a fresh cost
or, if it be preferred, a fresh debt charge, but not fresh purchasing power.
It is, perhaps, unnecessary to contend that the average antiquity of
the debt charges against the population is more than two and a half weeks. It
is certainly a considerable number of years, but it would be difficult to say
exactly what it is.
Categorically, there are at least the following five causes of a deficiency
of purchasing power as compared with collective prices of goods for sale:-
1. Money profits collected from the public (interest is profit on an
intangible). (Interest is what drives profit,
because it is the rate of return of capital - i.e. the opportunity cost of
capital. It is more than just profit on an intangible, it is profit that
is guaranteed to grow continuously over time, it guarantees that the rate of
growth of debt is greater than the rate of growth of credits to cancel that
debt, and that forces more debt into the system, and causes an inbalance in
prices.)
2. Savings, i.e., mere abstentation from buying.
3. Investment of savings in new works, which create a new cost without
fresh purchasing power.
4. Difference of circuit velocity between cost liquidation and price
creation which results in charges being carried over into prices from a
previous cost accountancy cycle. Practically all plant charges are of this
nature, and all payments for material brought in from a previous wage cycle
are of the same nature.
S. Deflation, i.e., sale of securities by banks and recall of
loans.
There are other causes of, at the moment, less importance.
Excluding taxation, which is a separate although allied subject, all
distributed purchasing power is recovered from the public through the agency
of prices. This is just as true in connection with the recall of trade loans
as in any other form of expense. It seems obvious, therefore, that, with the
exception of savings, the whole of the above causes of the difference between
purchasing power and prices can be found in B payments, which are money
ultimately on its way back to the bank, (Yes,
money back to the bank creates less credit in the system as money is
cancelled, but either new capital projects are created to create more consumer
goods, and hence, the money supply remains constant or growing, or less and
less capital investments are made, and the amount of consumer goods produced
slows with depreciation, and therefore, less and less money is needed to clear
the market. In either event, there is no inbalance. The inbalance
comes from the fact that the debt can never be paid off, and access to more
loans is made necessary because of usury.)and none of them,
with the exception of savings, are found in A payments, and if we subtract the
A payments distributed in a given week, minus savings from the total prices
claimed in a given week, we shall get B payments as a measure of the net debt
claims against the public for the week in question.
As bearing upon this, the Association of American
Engineers at Columbia University, previously referred to, remarks that "the
total debt claim against the physical equipment of all American industry has
risen to the fantastic figure of 218,000,000,000 dollars-a debt claim on
posterity." They correctly remark that a temporary revival to "prosperity
levels" is possible by increasing the debt claim through a policy of
inflation, but that a downward oscillation will result from this that is
likely to end in the utter collapse of the price system under which industry
has operated.
The foregoing is sufficient answer to the quotation from Mr. J. Keynes,
which begins: "Let X be equal to the cost of production of all producers. Then
X will also be equal to the incomes of the public." This is the well-known
logical fallacy known as the petitio princil, which consists in
assuming the truth of the fact which you have set out to prove and then
proving the assumption from the logical conclusion.
The cost of production is not equal to the incomes of the public,
and therefore the rest of the argument merely indicates what would happen if
it were equal.(This is true, but the only
thing that causes this inbalance is the cost of interest on debt created
money).
Professor Copland then goes on to argue that the whole system of production
would have broken down had my analysis been correct, and mentions the
interesting fact that A payments in Australian industry are about one-fourth
of the total value of the output of goods in factories. It is well understood
how it has been possible for industry to carry on up to the present time under
the faulty financial system we have examined, and the two more important
causes are: firstly, the excess of exports over imports, resulting in taking
goods out of the country and receiving purchasing power in return for them,
thus at one and the same time decreasing the amount of goods in the country
and increasing the amount of purchasing power in respect of the remaining
goods; and secondly, by a progressively excessive production of capital goods,
the A payments of which become available to buy the consumable goods, the
method to which reference is made by the American authorities quoted
previously. Both of these latter processes have now become, in practice,
impossible to any considerable extent, and the present crisis is the
result.
Take
care,
Jim
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 11:20
AM
Subject: Re: It's Not Interest, Jim:
Wally responds
I'll reply in
'italics bold green' to the parts below.
~Joe
(Joe) Why is interest any different from any other 'B'
cost?
(Jim) And that's maybe a point of
confusion on my behalf? I'm not absolutely certain, as I don't
profess to know everything about social credit. But my suspicion is
that the only time credit is really "cancelled" or taken out of the
system, like a drain, is when an actual bank loan is paid.
It's from whence the money originated, and the imbalance comes from the
pump. And my arguement is that the actual inbalance, when you trace
it all the way back, comes from the fact that bank expect you to pay back
more than they create. Not at the exact moment of the loan, because
that balances, but over time, because interest
grows.
I think what you're missing, Jim, is that there has to
be a relationship that's accurate between ' physical reality' and the
'financial' reflection of it. It is true, or at least it certainly
seems to me to be, that the banker does indeed expect you to pay back more
than he's initially created when he credits your account with a sum of
'money'. And it is easy to say this is the 'cause' of the imbalance,
and the source of all our problems, since he didn't create this 'interest'
at the time of the loan. But it is not. Because that is not
how the system works. He creates many loans, as 'debt', and these loans
can be measured overall as 'flows', since in reality we are dealing
with a whole dynamic process, not one solitary part of it at a time in
isolation. In that imaginary solitary instance, what could be said
of 'interest' could also be said of a 'service charge' to replace
interest. The banker, in the ficticious one loan situation
didn't create the money for that either. Nor also the money for
anyone else's 'profit'. So how could any of these
things be paid? The 'real' problem ISN'T 'interest,' nor
'profit', to any extent. Only what happens to both of them in the
sense of where do they go ~ whether they are distributed or
not. The problem IS what happens when there is a
difference in the rate between the 'physical' realities of production and
consumption, and the inaccurate 'financial' reflection of that
rate.
(Jim) Debts and costs are not the same
thing. Costs can be cancelled without cancelling the credit (money)
in circulation. Money (credit) is cancelled when a debt is
repaid. This isn't really cancelling a cost, it's cancelling a debt,
and this is why I said it seems Douglas was confused in this
matter.
(Joe) I won't presume to speak for Douglas, but
I know I'm confused in this matter the way you've phrased the
preceding. I have no problem with your saying 'money' as
bank-created credit is cancelled when the debt is paid
off. I also have no problem with your saying, "This isn't
really cancelling a 'cost', it's cancelling a 'debt'..." Is this not
one of the reasons why we call for Social Credit?
(Jim)
Actually, I want to address this fully Joe, for I actually believe it's
the genius of Douglas. Douglas saw that we benefit from our
association together via trade. And being the engineer, saw that
technology increased our productivity, and could provide us with more
goods, or more leisure. He also believed that as people were
"richer" they would choose to seek more leisure. We no longer needed
an economics of scarcity, but an economics of abundance. As it
stands now, the people who benefit from our mutual association is the
banks. How? By establishing credit with a cost (debt)
that is grows over time. In reality, all of us should
benefit from association and technology, because the discoveries of
Einstein depended on Newton....... Have we not just
established a disparity between 'costs' and 'purchasing power' available
to meet them in the community at large when the 'debt', which is in
'money' is paid off, but the 'cost' of the asset it created is an
'accrued cost', still on the books of the borrower and yet to be
liquidated? We have created a disparity, if we
pay off debt. But I have a question? Why would you pay off
debt if there were no interest accuring on the
loan?
Because we could not all just continue to run up
'debt' that would never be repaid, or your entire money system would be as
worthless as 'green dollars'. And if you try to 'make' the 'debt'
under such a situation in any way 'callable' to correct that little
problem, you have established an external control over the
individual. Social Credit seeks to remove external controls over the
individual and allow the benefits of association to be fully realized by
him. You do not do that by putting people further into 'debt', nor
pretending a system of money can function where 'debt' doesn't have to be
repaid. We want, or at least I do, Social 'Credit' , not Social
'Debit'.
Again, I contend that the bank loan not
only creates a loan, it creates a credit (deposit), so there is no "cost"
associated with debt at this
point.
The bank loan also gives rise to a physical
asset, and the money in existence should accurately 'reflect' what is
happening to that physical asset. That is, I believe, what we
have a money system for.
The
cost of debt is interest, which IS the drains the money supply,
because it all comes back to the banks, and they "settle the score" +
interest. Which can usually only be done by charging the
public a price they've now not the money to pay? Unless there's a
further dispensation of credit from the banks. Yes, once money is drained, more money must be replaced to
clear the market because the velocity of credit is set within a certain
amount of time by physical
constraints.
I'll leave this one for somebody with a superior
knowledge of economics to comment on.
But
again, it's important to distinguish between the cancelling of a cost with
credit, because the credit still exists, and cancelling the original debit
from whence the credit originated. But again, what need would I have
to cancel a debit, if the debits were not accruing. Then I would not
be obligated to retire that "cost". That "cost" should actually be a
"benefit" as you, and Douglas so rightly point out. Paid to all of
us as a dividend for our "cultural heritage". Which, if it's in respect of some addition to further
productive capacity, creates another set of 'costs' carried forward into
future prices. Do you not agree with Douglas's 'three demands',
Jim? The three statements about 'collective cash-credits', 'loan
credits', and the 'dividend' progressively replacing the wage?
Victor listed them in a recent post you replied to. He did? I'm going to have to revisit that because I don't
remember off hand, and it's not because I didn't read it. I
appreciate everything Victor, yourself and Wally all have to
say. If you could explain it to me better, or provide a link, I'd
love to see it
Joe.
I'll post it here, without further
comment:-
1. The
cash-credits of the population of any country shall at any moment be
collectively equal to the collective cash prices for consumable
goods for sale in that country, and such cash credits shall be cancelled
on purchase of goods for consumption.
2. That the
credits required to finance production shall be supplied, not from
savings, but be new credits relating to new
production.
3. That the
distribution of cash credits to individuals shall be progressively less
dependent upon employment. That is to say, that the dividend shall
progressively replace the wage and the salary. ~ Swanwick address,
1924
Regards to
all,
Joe
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