| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Jessop's questions | | Date: | Wednesday, August 4, 2004 21:27:22 (+0200) | | From: | Jessop Sutton <sutton @...........za>
|
On Sunday 01 Aug 2004 8:32 pm, william_b_ryan@yahoo.com wrote:
> In continuing reply to Jessop Sutton's post of July . . . . . . . .
============================
Thanks for your comments, Bill.
You wrote:
> In an intangible sense, when we purchase, our
> personal debt to the community increases; when we
> sell, our debt decreases.
That is profound. I have spent a lot of time thinking about it. I haven't got
my mind fully round it yet, but it does start to make other things fall into
place.
You also say:
> In modern industrial economies, the banks have
> subrogated the credit position of the consuming
> sector. The firms sector nominally owes its debt to
> the banks, not the consumers. Yet, the banks are
> functionally agents for consumers, not the firms.
> There is no other conceivable way for multi-stage
> production to be organized, if we are to have
> competitive free markets.
I like that. I have concluded that the banks are not the enemy. There has
always been credit (loans), I suppose, for as far back as one can go. The
emergence of the banking system is a logical development along with
sophisticated commerce. The devil manifests not in the system but in the
greed of men who operate the system to their own excessive gain. This
weakness is inherent in human nature and we can hardly point a finger because
we would be hard challenged to point to even one poor person who, given the
ability and the opportuninty, would not quickly accept a place on the Board
of any conglomorate.
What any solution has to offer is a way to out-smart the brilliance of the
minds that do manipulate it, but the motives have to be transparent and
honest. Jesus said that 'The children of this world are wiser than the
children of light' -- and that is the enemy we fight against, the cleverness
of those who choose to serve mammon rather than God.
But spending time and effort pulling the banking system to pieces will get us
nowhere. However, it is good to know how it works.
Jessop.
=============================
On Sunday 01 Aug 2004 8:32 pm, william_b_ryan@yahoo.com wrote:
> In continuing reply to Jessop Sutton's post of July
> 28,
> archived at
> http://www.geocities.com/socialcredit/sutton-07-28-04.txt
> in continuation of my post of 07-30.
>
> ***But "Depositor No. 10" only received the
> wherewithal
> to repay his loan from other parties who purchased
> his goods, possibly with money originally created as
> loans by some banks somewhere and which still have to
> be repaid. Is this not so?***
> ------------------
>
> Yes.
>
>
> ***Also "depositor No. 10 repays his banker with 102
> pounds obtained from the public in exchange for his
> goods...there are 100 pounds worth more goods in the
> world which are immobilized..." Has the system not
> removed the goods from the world through the process
> of consumption?***
> ------------------
>
> In an intangible sense, when we purchase, our
> personal debt to the community increases; when we
> sell, our debt decreases.
>
> We must however make a distinction between the
> selling of labor services to the firms sector, and
> the selling of goods and services by the firms sector
> to consumers. The former is in the "flux" portion of
> the monetary circuit, the flow of credit money from
> the banks through firms to consumers; while the
> latter is in the "reflux" portion of the circuit back
> to the banks.
>
> There is a time delay from the receipt of income or
> sales revenue, and their respective disbursement.
> For this reason, the firms sector is always in debt
> to consumers to the extent that consumers possess
> positive account balances.
>
> See the attachment, also archived at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium/double-circuit.jpg
> which is the rudimentary model of the monetary
> circuit. Notice that it is a compound circuit (in
> contrast to the conventional model of circular flow),
> that Douglas called the "double circuit." Douglas
> was an electrical engineer (also a mechanical
> engineer). Electrical telegraphy had what was called
> the "double circuit," which may have been inspiration
> for his theory.
>
> In modern industrial economies, the banks have
> subrogated the credit position of the consuming
> sector. The firms sector nominally owes its debt to
> the banks, not the consumers. Yet, the banks are
> functionally agents for consumers, not the firms.
> There is no other conceivable way for multi-stage
> production to be organized, if we are to have
> competitive free markets.
>
> But the flow of money and goods do not necessarily
> coincide, as they did automatically in single-stage
> barter with a commodity-trading medium.
>
> Because the credit flux quasi-mechanically precedes
> its reflux, the reflux from consumers is always
> paying for an earlier cycle of production already
> delivered and consumed, not the production currently
> being delivered and consumed. This is irrespective
> of the "titular" ownership of the goods involved,
> which is generally transferred on delivery.
>
> Notice that while consumers are the creditors of the
> firms, they are treated as if they were debtors, to
> the detriment of all.
>
> To the extent that banks have contracted credit,
> goods delivered today cannot be paid for tomorrow.
> Goods in the "pipeline" will not be delivered
> tomorrow. They are immobilized. A financial wrench
> has been thrown into the mechanism of mass
> production, shutting it down.
> ---
>
>
>
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