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Belloc on Usury william_
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Letter to the medi Wallace
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the servile state william_
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Subject:Re: [socialcredit] Belloc on Usury
Date:Saturday, September 4, 2004  08:42:43 (-0700)
From:Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu @....ca>

A very interesting piece.  But no doubt there will still arise the argument from those who insist on seeing 'interest' as the big problem that a modern bank loan, created out of 'nothing', yet establishing an enforceable  claim on 'something', (the mortgaged collateral), is still 'usury'.  For regardless of whether the purpose is productive or not, or whether the borrower makes a profit or not,  the banker is still going to profit. 
 
His 'risk' is not exactly the same as the one who lent the ship.  Nor alternately,  the personal funds that he'd previously (presumably) 'earned' to secure one.  Where, in each case, any 'loss' is going to be 'genuine'.  And shared.  One can visualize the lender being out the ship, or his money, whilst the borrower might've gone down with it.  Or, at best,  invested his time and effort in something fruitless.
 
 Rather the modern banker is, as Douglas wrote, ,"... in a unique position.  He is probably the only known instance of the possibility of lending something without parting with anything, and making a profit on the transaction, obtaining in the first instance his commodity free."  He would no doubt insist that the ship be 'insured', in his favour, at the expense of the borrower.  And take other precautions to ensure he doesn't lose, regarless of what happens.  (In Canada, as an example,  this has often taken the form of a 'personal guarantee' exacted from the owner of an incorporated borrowing business. "Limited liability', in this case, doesn't exist for the borrower. The business could fail, and he could still be on the hook for the amount of the loan, plus the ever accumulating interest.)  In such circumstances, how are we to impress on those who seem unable to get beyond their fixation on 'usury' that this type of 'interest' is not the same?
 
Joe
 
Now this is not to say that banks do not sometimes 'lose' on their loans, and have to write them off.  But as a small businessman whose dealt with banks it seems to me that they've got themselves pretty well covered.  ----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 6:56 AM
Subject: [socialcredit] Belloc on Usury

I thank Mark Monson for this excerpt from Belloc's
"Economics for Helen," originally published in 1924,
which has recently become available in reprint
edition.  I have placed it into our introductory
compendium
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
Those who are familiar with the work of C. H. Douglas
will remember that he frequently quoted Belloc, and
often used similar metaphor, such as the "Servile
State."
In this essay Belloc differentiates interest per se
from "usury," which is rightly condemned, and uses
the terms "interest" and "profit" interchangeably,
which is correct usage.  You might remember that
Douglas said that interest is profit "on an
intangible."  The term interest is therefore merely
colloquial usage for a particular classification of
profit.
-

F A I R  U S E  C L A I M E D
From Economics for Helen, by Hilaire Belloc:
USURY is a topic which modern people have almost
entirely forgotten, and which you will not find
mentioned in any book on Economics that I know. Yet
its vital importance was recognised throughout all
history until quite lately, and it is already forcing
itself upon modern people's notice whether they like
it or not. So it is as well to understand it, for it
is going to be discussed widely in the near future.
All codes of law and all writers on morals from the
beginning of anything we know about human society
have denounced as wrong the practice of Usury.
They have recognised that this practice does grave
harm to the State and to society as a whole, and
must, therefore, as far as possible, be forbidden.
Now what is Usury, and why does it thus do harm?
Modem people have so far forgotten this exceedingly
important matter that they have come to use the word
"usury" loosely for "the taking of high interest upon
a loan." That is very muddled thinking indeed, as you
will see in a moment. The character of Usury has
nothing to do with the taking of high or low
interest. It is concerned with something quite
different.
Usury is the taking of any interest whatever upon an
UNPRODUCTIVE loan.
A man comes to you and says: "Lend me this piece of
capital which you possess" (for instance, a ship, and
stores of food with which to feed the sailors during
the voyage of the ship). "Using this piece of capital
to transport the surplus goods from this country over
the sea and to bring back foreign goods which we need
here I shall make a profit so large that I can
exchange it for at least one hundred tons of wheat.
The voyage there and back will take a year."
You naturally answer: "It is all very well for you to
make a profit of one hundred tons of wheat in one
year by the use of my ship and of my stores of food
for sailors who work the ship, but what about me ? I
grant you ought to have part of this profit for
yourself, as you are taking all the trouble. But I
ought to have some, because the ship and stores of
food are mine; and unless I lent them to you (since
you have none of your own) you would not be able to
make that profit by trading of which you speak. Let
us go half shares. You shall have fifty tons of wheat
and I will take fifty, out of the total profit of one
hundred tons.
The man who proposed to borrow our ship agrees. The
bargain is struck, and when the year is over you make
a fifty tons profit of wheat on your capital.
That is the earning of interest on a productive loan.
There is nothing morally wrong about that transaction
at all. It does no one any harm. It does not weaken
the State or society, or even hurt any individual.
There is a sheer gain due to wise exchange (which is
equivalent to production); everybody is benefited -
you that own the capital, the man who uses it, and
all society, which benefits by the foreign exchange.
Supposing your ship and stores of food were worth a
hundred tons of wheat, then your profit of fifty tons
of wheat is a profit of fifty per cent, which is very
high indeed. But you have a perfect right to it: your
capital has produced a real increase of wealth to
that extent. If your capital be worth ten times as
much, then your profit is only five per cent instead
of fifty. But your moral right to the fifty per cent
is just as great as your moral right to the five per
cent. No one can blame you, and you are doing no
harm.
Now supposing that, instead of coming to ask you for
the loan of your ship, the man came and asked you for
the loan of a sum of money which you happened to have
by you and which would be sufficient to buy and stock
the ship. It is clear that the transaction remains
exactly the same. The loan is productive. He makes a
true profit, that is, there is a real increase of
wealth for the community, and you and he have a right
to take your shares out of it you because you are the
owner of the capital, and he because he took the
trouble of organising and overlooking the
expedition.
These are examples of profit on a productive loan.
Now suppose a man to come to you if you were a baker
and say: "Lend me half a dozen loaves. My family have
no bread and I cannot see my way to earning anything
for a day or two. But when I begin to earn I will get
another half dozen loaves and see that you are not
out of pocket. " Then if you were to reply: 'I will
not let you have half a dozen loaves on those terms.
I will let you owe me the bread for a month if you
like, but at the end of the month you must give me
back seven loaves": that would be usury.
The man is not using the loan productively: he is
consuming the loaves immediately. No more wealth is
created by the act. The world is not the richer, nor
are you the richer, nor is society in general the
richer. No more wealth at all has appeared through
the transaction. Therefore the extra loaf that you
are claiming is claimed out of nothing. It has to
come out of the wealth of the community - in this
particular case out of the wealth of the man who
borrowed the loaves - instead of coming out of an
increment or excess or new wealth. That is why usury
is called "usury" - which means: "wearing down",
"gradually dilapidating.
It is clear that if the whole world practised usury
and nothing but usury, if wealth were never lent to
be used productively, but only to be consumed
unproductively, and yet were to demand interest on
the unproductive transaction, then the wealth that
was lent would soon eat up all the other wealth in
the community until you came to a situation in which
there was no more to take. Everyone would be ruined
except those who lent; then these, having no more
blood to suck, would die themselves, and society
would end.
As in the case of the ship, it matters not in the
least whether the actual thing, the loaves of bread,
are lent, or money is lent with which to buy them.
The test is whether the loan is productive or not.
The intention of Usury is present when the money is
lent at interest on what the lender KNOWS will be an
unproductive purpose, and the actual practice of
usury is present when the loan, having as a fact been
used unproductively, interest is none the less
demanded.
As in every other case of right and wrong whatsoever,
there is, of course, a broad margin in which it is
very difficult to draw the line. A man guilty of
usury and trying to excuse himself might say, even in
the case of food lent to a starving man: "The loan
may not look directly productive, but indirectly it
was productive, for it saved the man's life and thus
later on he was able to work and produce wealth."
The other way about (though there is not much danger
of that nowadays), a man trying to get out of
interest on a productive loan might say in many
cases: "The loan was not really productive. It is
true I made a profit on it, but that profit was not
additional wealth for the Community. It only
represented what I got out of somebody else on a
bargain.
In this margin. of uncertainty we have only common
sense to guide us, as in every other similar case. We
know pretty well in each particular example we come
across whether a loan is productive of not; whether
we are borrowing or lending for a productive purpose,
or for a charitable or luxurious one, or for one in
every way unproductive.
The proof that this feeling about usury is right is
to be found in the private conduct of individuals in
their social relations. If a poor man in distress
goes to a rich friend and borrows ten pounds, he pays
it back when he can; and the rich man would think it
dishonourable to charge interest. But if a man
borrowed ten pounds of one for the purpose of doing
something which was likely to increase its value, and
we knew that this was his purpose, we should have a
perfect right to share the results with him, and no
one would think the claim dishonorable.
Usury, then, is essentially a claim to increment, or
extra wealth, which is not there to be claimed. It is
a practice which diminishes the capital wealth of the
needy and eats it up to the profit of the lender - so
that, if Usury go unchecked, it must end in the
absorption of all private property into the hands of
a few money brokers.
-

 


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