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Subject:Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit from First Principles
Date:Wednesday, April 27, 2005  19:05:26 (+0100)
From:Tim Knight <Tim_Knight @........Com>

Tim Knight wrote:
 
How do you differentiate between the gold in a shoe-buckle and the gold in a coin used to 'pay' for the shoe.
 
Vic Bridger wrote:
 
It depends on what you want yourself. Both can be kept as ornaments. Both can be kept as a collectors item probably for investment. Both can be used as money providing they are acceptable by others in exchange for their goods and services. Either can be kept as money or an ornament or a collectors item. It is simply a matter for you to decide. Any "value" that may be attached will depend upon what someone else is prepared to accept as that "value".
 
There is no difference between a gold coin or a sea-shell if either is accepted as money by others universally in exchange for their goods or services.
 
This distinction appears to be lost on many people.
 
Tim Knight now writes:
 
Thanks for the response Vic.  I am not sure whether your response is intended to endorse or confound the point I was trying to make.  Could you perhaps confirm or deny the following: 
 
There is no economically-significant distinction between 'money' and 'non-money' wealth and transactions:
  1. This is true of owned-wealth.  There is no economically-significant distinction between the gold shoe-buckle and the gold coin above.  In an economic paradigm, each item of owned-wealth has an intrinsic value, and appears in only one set of 'books'.  
  2. This is true of owed-wealth.  There is no economically-significant distinction between cash, current accounts, deposit accounts, credit accounts, loan accounts, mortgage accounts, inter-bank accounts, central bank accounts, receivables accounts, payables accounts, bonds, gilts, stocks, shares, etc..  In an economic paradigm, they are all just debts, and each debt appears in two 'books': once as an asset, and once as a precisely-equal liability. 
Thus, trying to find an economically-significant concept on to which one could 'hang' the expression 'money' is like chasing rainbows.  There is nothing there to catch! 
 
We should instead focus more clearly on the economically-significant distinction between owed-wealth, owned-wealth and net-wealth.  In particular, we could perhaps agree an economic paradigm based on the following:
  1. Each item of owned-wealth has an intrinsic value, and appears in only one set of 'books'.  
  2. Each item of owed-wealth (i.e. each debt) appears in two 'books': once as an asset, and once as a precisely-equal liability. 
  3. Aggregate owed-wealth is a zero-sum network. 
  4. Net-wealth for each economic entity is the sum of its owned-wealth and its owed-wealth. 
  5. Aggregate net-wealth is precisely-equal to aggregate owned-wealth. 
No-one can create any kind of wealth 'out of thin air'.  The expression 'debt-free money' is a deceit. All items of 'money' are one of the following:
  1. An administrative subset of owned-wealth, with an intrinsic value (as with gold coins). 
  2. An administrative subset of owed-wealth, with a net-zero value (i.e. a debt).   
Best Wishes
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit from First Principles

"How do you differentiate between the gold in a shoe-buckle and the gold in a coin used to 'pay' for the shoe".
 
It depends on what you want yourself. Both can be kept as ornaments. Both can be kept as a collectors item probably for investment. Both can be used as money providing they are acceptable by others in exchange for their goods and services. Either can be kept as money or an ornament or a collectors item. It is simply a matter for you to decide. Any "value" that may be attached will depend upon what someone else is prepared to accept as that "value".
 
There is no difference between a gold coin or a sea-shell if either is accepted as money by others universally in exchange for their goods or services.
 
This distinction appears to be lost on many people.
Vic Bridger
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Knight
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit from First Principles

John G Rawson kindly replied to my notes requesting help in getting a grip on what Social Credit people mean by very basic expressions such as 'money', 'issuing money', 'credit' and 'issuing credit'.
 
John G Rawson wrote:
 
A bank "increases the money supply" when it buys an asset, e.g. a building.  If its cheque is deposited at another bank, it has to accommodate that debt with it. If deposited with itself, it gets it "for nothing". Either way, the banking system "gets it for nothing".  If they can do it, the nation can, just as the kings of old could issue gold coins without incurring debt other than the costs of minting etc. And electronic impulses don't need minting!
 
Tim Knight now writes:
 
Surely, the bank does not 'get it for nothing'.  The bank has to credit either the account of the seller or the account of the seller's bank.  That debt is an asset in the sleer's books and an equal liability in the bank's books (just like every other account with a positive balance).  
  • The bank acquires owned-wealth (i.e. the property) and an equal liability (the owed-wealth recorded in the account). 
  • The seller conceedes owned-wealth (i.e. the property), and acquires an equal asset (the owed-wealth recorded in the account).  
Neither party is richer or poorer.  No wealth is created or destroyed.  If a bank could simply 'deny' such a liability, we could all deny our mortgage, credit-card, and utility bills etc.!  The idea that any economic entity (state, treasury, central bank, merchant bank, retail bank, building society, creative accountant, Enron Finance Director, or whatever) could create wealth 'out of thin air' in the way John suggests is surely pure wishful thinking.  If anyone thinks it can be done, please tell us all, and we can all be rich (with servants) whilst none of us need to be servants (and pigs will be able to fly!). 
 
The global aggregate of net-wealth must equal the global aggregate of owned-wealth.  The global zero-sum network of owed-wealth is (or ought to be) simply a zero-sum book-keeping exercise which 'keeps the score' on where we are in our non-barter trading and employment activity.  Those who have sold more owned-wealth than they have bought accumulate a net positive balance, and those who have bought more owned-wealth than they have sold accumulate a net negative balance.  The grand total (of course) is zero. 
 
Surely, the owed-wealth position between the seller and the bank, and the changes to that position, can be called money, non-money, 'credit' or 'money-supply' as the mood takes you, but that is more a question of semantics (the meaning of words) and administration rather than economics.  It doesn't matter whether you call a particular debt a cash account, a receivables account, a payables account, a current account, a deposit account, a credit-card account, a mortgage account, a tweedle-dum account or a tweedle-deed account.  Surely, from an economic perspective, a debt is a debt is a debt is a debt.  Each debt is an asset in one set of books and an equal liability in another.  
 
Surely also, from an economic perspective, specie coins, valued at their intrinsic value, are simply a subset of owned-wealth, like a washing machine or real estate.  Use of such coins for settlement of debts created by trade and employment is a subset of barter.  How do you differentiate between the gold in a shoe-buckle and the gold in a coin used to 'pay' for the shoe.  Or is there any economically-meaningful distinction to be made? 

Best Wishes
 

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