| Subject: | RE: [socialcredit] Guernsey | | Date: | Wednesday, April 27, 2005 09:04:36 (-0700) | | From: | William B. Ryan <w_b_ryan @.....com>
|
I have recently acquired a copy of the Grubiak book
through the good graces of Wally Klinck. It is
typical of the propaganda (the big lie) genre in
having no footnotes or references that can be
verified independently through comparison against
original sources. The appeal is strictly to emotion
and prejudice. But at the front is this:
"ACKNOWLEDGMENTS: Our most profound gratitude is due
to M. Guillemette, States Supervisor of Guernsey, who
supplied all the information we requested, and
responded to our tiresome importunities with
unfailing kindness and helpfulness. Our thanks are
also due to Mr. Galt, General Manager of Glasgow
Corporation Markets, for the information (necessarily
limited by the complicated nature of the records
involved) which he kindly supplied. We are indebted
for the historical material dealing with Guernsey up
to 1937, to C. Marshall Hattersley's book, 'Wealth,
Want and War.' Last, but not least, we must thank the
generous sponsors who made this book financially
possible."
There are no original sources referenced here, you
might note. The earliest dated material is C.
Mashall Hattersley's book, apparently published in
1937. I don't have that book, nor is it available
locally--so I've reached for the moment a dead end in
tracing the provenance of the story.
(While we're on this subject, perhaps someone will
send me a copy of C. Marshall's book. And perhaps
Martin Hattersley, a subscriber to this list, will
inform us as to the disposition of his father's many
copyrights. They represent an important part of the
corpus of historic Social Credit literature that
should be preserved.)
There is, however, the last appendix to the Grubiak
book, purporting to be the reprint of a document. It
is headed: "Historic Reply of the STATES of GUERNSEY
to the Privy Council, justifying the Guernsey
Experiment. Here published, for the first time in
full, since 1829."
But when you actually do read the document in the
appendix, as I have, you'll find nothing whatever
about any "experiment." What you will find is merely
justification by Guernsey to the Privy Council for
going into debt, and their plan for amortization. In
the excerpt below, the famous "market" of the story
is specifically mentioned, but the only word
associated with it is "debt," not a word about
printing and spending "money" into circulation "debt-
free" to pay for it:-
"THE words of the second Order in Council have
already been cited. The right of levying the duty on
spirituous liquors is granted for ten years; a
condition is annexed purporting that the States shall
not exceed their annual income, and on the contrary,
that out of the produce of the duty, one thousand
pounds shall be applied annually to the extinction of
the debt; that condition is naturally in force for
the same period, and far the same period only, as the
grant to which it is annexed; it is necessarily so
limited, because the means by which it is to be
fulfilled, the produce of the duty, ceases at the end
of the ten years for which the duty is granted. THE
States are bound to prove that they have complied
with the conditions of that Order; they did so
comply, when wishing to erect a new Market, they
applied for and obtained the order of 10th October
1820, which imposed on them, at their own request,
the further obligation of an annual payment of four
hundred and fifty pounds far ten years."
Look, it's not remarkable that various corporate
entities, including governmental entities, especially
in the early nineteenth century, issued securities
which they tendered directly to vendors and were
accepted by vendors in payment for things. Not far
from where I sit is a museum, at Washington-on-the-
Brazos, the place where the Texas declaration of
independence was signed in 1836, on one wall of which
is framed a "stock certificate," issued by the
township, which circulated as money in the township,
according to the caption. That's what creditary or
"negotiable" contractual agreements do--they can be
transferred from party to party through endorsement,
explicit or implicit. They've been so used for
centuries, if not millennia. They are instruments of
debt that are assets to their holders. Being assets,
they can be traded.
What is myth is the miracle story that surrounds the
Guernsey note issue. Like this:
"It's perfectly reasonable for anyone to ask if there
is any nation in the world today smart enough to use
interest-free money. And, if so, what have been the
consequences. Canada's Finance Minister, who claims
(on the previous page) that governments 'printing
money...leads to hyperinflation' obviously hasn't
heard of the success of interest-free money on the
Isle of Guernsey, or if he has, he must surely claim
that Guernsey defies reason--his reason. Because, not
only has 'inflation' never been evident on the island
of Guernsey, but it has had a stable and prosperous
economy for over one hundred and fifty years...
"When Dr. Jacques Jaikaran visited Guernsey in 1990,
he reported on the state of the Guernsey economy in
his book The Debt Virus:
"There were about 60,000 permanent residents; the
average family owned 3.3 cars; their unemployment
rate was zero and their standard of living was very
high. Also, there was no public debt and a surplus of
public funds was earning them interest. The Guernsey
Treasury increased the money supply by 50% over a 3
year period and this increase did not cause any
inflation. The price for a gallon of gas in the UK
was about $5, but the price in Guernsey was about $2.
Contrary to the teachings of economics in all higher
institutions, inflation, it was claimed, was not
related to the volume of money, but rather to the
size of the commercial debt."
http://www.monetary-reform.on.ca/archives/6d.shtml
-
--- donzbeth@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> Don Replies: Hi John, The book I referred to is
> "The Guernsey
> Experiment" by O. & J. Grubiak, which I first met
> about 50 years ago, as
> available for decades through the (U.K.) Social
> Credit Co-ordinating
> Centre, plus the Christian Book Club of U.S.A., and
> later a book publisher
> in Western Australia. It was described as a
> thoroughly researched study for
> posterity of the detailed financial history of the
> use by the States of
> Guernsey of interest free credit they created on
> behalf of their community.
> I have never ever seen or heard of anyone
> challenging any detail of its
> accuracy.... From a virtually bankrupt island state,
> they changed to such a
> prosperous little haven that they became the envy of
> the English mainland.
> (My latest copy of Grubiaks' book is out on loan,
> so I cannot give its
> publication details.)
>
> However, to support the denigration by Ryan that
> Guernsey is mythology, he
> slams it with the non sequitur stick, of its
> currents situation. No one
> has ever claimed that the use by Guernsey of
> rebuilding its markets and
> amenities with interest free money would become a
> permanent feature of its
> administration; but on the contrary. The book
> detailed how the English
> banks tried to get the Island States prohibited
> from their currency issues,
> but because of the
> prosperity so widely applauded, the English
> Government refused to
> co-operate. But the banks didn't give up, and
> offered particularly
> favourable borrowing terms to the islanders. The
> authors finally predicted
> that a combination of time, fading memories, and
> continuing pressure from
> the banks to stop being different from the mainland,
> could see Guernsey
> again moving back into the clutches of the debt
> merchants (inter alia).
>
> Ryan is just confirming the Grubiaks' predictions.
> From 1935 to 1950 the
> N.Z. Government
> used its Reserve Bank credit at computed "cost" of
> 1%, to backstop (ie:
> underwrite the shortfalls) in the building of
> hydro schemes, railways,
> state houses, etc, and so despite the economic
> benefits of that, the
> international banks maintained continuous pressure
> against it to the 2 main
> political parties, and eventually got the practice
> stopped. At the same
> time we had a network of community banks covering
> the whole country
> providing very competitive loans for home builders,
> and grants to their
> communities. So in the Al Capone philosophy ,
> their
> Boards of Directors were made cash offers that were
> "too good to be
> refused" , and in one fell swoop the 20 or so
> community banks sold out to
> Westpac of Australia, except for the massive
> Auckland one which was taken
> over by the HKSB; just leaving one in New Plymouth
> and the Southland
> Savings Bank based in Invercargill. (Neither are
> commercially big, or a
> threat.)
>
> Should we now expect Ryan to say that because the
> government here does not
> now use any Reserve Bank credit to support its
> policies, its boom years were
> also just mythology ?
>
> Let's try learning from history instead of rewriting
> it........
>
> Don B.
>
> ++++++++++++++++++
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John G Rawson
> [mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 09:53
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Subject: [socialcredit] Guernsey
>
>
> I have several times in different places expressed
> my despair at the
> looseness of so many Socred writers in not
> "referencing" their quotes
> precisely. By contrast, the communists have always
> done this superbly, even
> if their references may often have been to lies told
> by other communists. S
> now we are faced with a situation with reference to
> Guernsey where one side
> says it's a myth and the other claims it is well
> documented but doesn't
> produce the documentation. (Sorry, Don., it's not
> you, it's the original
> literature.)
>
> So we are reduced to the situation where the
> "myth" exists as a hypothesis
> to be disproved.
>
> I would therefore like our Moderator to produce
> his proof:
>
> 1. That the construction of the Guernsey
> marketplace was not financed
> debt-free by redeemable (bonds), and,
>
> 2. That it was financed either on loan or by
> finance provided by pirates
> or whatever.
>
> I'm not interested in a reference to a modern
> website. If you looked at an
> (in)appropriate NZ Govt. one I am sure you would get
> the inference at least
> that banks always lend savings.
>
>
> John R.
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