While this is admittedly embarassing, and while I am confident the story is
not myth, I love it as a wakeup call to improve our methods. Useful, telling
material is useless unless properly referenced to publication details and page
number. Culpa wea, or something like that correctly expressed.
John R.
>From: "William B. Ryan" <w_b_ryan@yahoo.com> >Reply-To:
socialcredit@elistas.com >To: socialcredit@elistas.com >Subject: RE:
[socialcredit] Guernsey >Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:04:36 -0700 (PDT) > >I have
recently acquired a copy of the Grubiak book >through the good graces of Wally
Klinck. It is >typical of the propaganda (the big lie) genre in >having no
footnotes or references that can be >verified independently through comparison
against >original sources. The appeal is strictly to emotion >and prejudice. But
at the front is this: > >"ACKNOWLEDGMENTS: Our most profound gratitude is due >to
M. Guillemette, States Supervisor of Guernsey, who >supplied all the information
we requested, and >responded to our tiresome importunities with >unfailing
kindness and helpfulness.
Our thanks are >also due to Mr. Galt, General Manager of Glasgow >Corporation
Markets, for the information (necessarily >limited by the complicated nature of
the records >involved) which he kindly supplied. We are indebted >for the
historical material dealing with Guernsey up >to 1937, to C. Marshall
Hattersley's book, 'Wealth, >Want and War.' Last, but not least, we must thank
the >generous sponsors who made this book financially >possible." > >There are no
original sources referenced here, you >might note. The earliest dated material is
C. >Mashall Hattersley's book, apparently published in >1937. I don't have that
book, nor is it available >locally--so I've reached for the moment a dead end in
>tracing the provenance of the story. > >(While we're on this subject, perhaps
someone will >send me a copy of C. Marshall's book. And
perhaps >Martin Hattersley, a subscriber to this list, will >inform us as to the
disposition of his father's many >copyrights. They represent an important part of
the >corpus of historic Social Credit literature that >should be preserved.) >
>There is, however, the last appendix to the Grubiak >book, purporting to be
the reprint of a document. It >is headed: "Historic Reply of the STATES of
GUERNSEY >to the Privy Council, justifying the Guernsey >Experiment. Here
published, for the first time in >full, since 1829." > >But when you actually do
read the document in the >appendix, as I have, you'll find nothing whatever
>about any "experiment." What you will find is merely >justification by
Guernsey to the Privy Council for >going into debt, and their plan for
amortization. In >the excerpt below, the famous "market" of the story
>is specifically mentioned, but the only word >associated with it is "debt," not a word about >printing and spending "money" into circulation "debt- >free" to pay for it:- > >"THE words of the second Order in Council have >already been cited. The right of levying the duty on >spirituous liquors is granted for ten years; a >condition is annexed purporting that the States shall >not exceed their annual income, and on the contrary, >that out of the produce of the duty, one thousand >pounds shall be applied annually to the extinction of >the debt; that condition is naturally in force for >the same period, and far the same period only, as the >grant to which it is annexed; it is necessarily so >limited, because the means by which it is to be >fulfilled, the produce of the duty, ceases at the end >of the ten years for which the duty is
granted. THE >States are bound to prove that they have complied >with the
conditions of that Order; they did so >comply, when wishing to erect a new
Market, they >applied for and obtained the order of 10th October >1820, which
imposed on them, at their own request, >the further obligation of an annual
payment of four >hundred and fifty pounds far ten years." > >Look, it's not
remarkable that various corporate >entities, including governmental entities,
especially >in the early nineteenth century, issued securities >which they
tendered directly to vendors and were >accepted by vendors in payment for things.
Not far >from where I sit is a museum, at Washington-on-the- >Brazos, the place
where the Texas declaration of >independence was signed in 1836, on one wall of
which >is framed a "stock certificate," issued by the >township, which
circulated as money in the township, >according to the caption. That's what
creditary or >"negotiable" contractual agreements do--they can be >transferred
from party to party through endorsement, >explicit or implicit. They've been so
used for >centuries, if not millennia. They are instruments of >debt that are
assets to their holders. Being assets, >they can be traded. > >What is myth is
the miracle story that surrounds the >Guernsey note issue. Like this: > >"It's
perfectly reasonable for anyone to ask if there >is any nation in the world today
smart enough to use >interest-free money. And, if so, what have been the
>consequences. Canada's Finance Minister, who claims >(on the previous page)
that governments 'printing >money...leads to hyperinflation' obviously hasn't
>heard of the success of interest-free money on the >Isle of
Guernsey, or if he has, he must surely claim >that Guernsey defies reason--his
reason. Because, not >only has 'inflation' never been evident on the island >of
Guernsey, but it has had a stable and prosperous >economy for over one hundred
and fifty years... > >"When Dr. Jacques Jaikaran visited Guernsey in 1990, >he
reported on the state of the Guernsey economy in >his book The Debt Virus: >
>"There were about 60,000 permanent residents; the >average family owned 3.3
cars; their unemployment >rate was zero and their standard of living was very
>high. Also, there was no public debt and a surplus of >public funds was
earning them interest. The Guernsey >Treasury increased the money supply by 50%
over a 3 >year period and this increase did not cause any >inflation. The price
for a gallon of gas in the UK >was about $5, but the price in
Guernsey was about $2. >Contrary to the teachings of economics in all higher
>institutions, inflation, it was claimed, was not >related to the volume of
money, but rather to the >size of the commercial debt."
>http://www.monetary-reform.on.ca/archives/6d.shtml >- > > > >---
donzbeth@ihug.co.nz wrote: > > > Don Replies: Hi John, The book I referred to is
> > "The Guernsey > > Experiment" by O. & J. Grubiak, which I first met > > about
50 years ago, as > > available for decades through the (U.K.) Social > > Credit
Co-ordinating > > Centre, plus the Christian Book Club of U.S.A., and > > later a
book publisher > > in Western Australia. It was described as a > > thoroughly
researched study for > > posterity of the detailed financial history of the > >
use by the States of > >
Guernsey of interest free credit they created on > > behalf of their community.
> > I have never ever seen or heard of anyone > > challenging any detail of its >
> accuracy.... From a virtually bankrupt island state, > > they changed to
such a > > prosperous little haven that they became the envy of > > the English
mainland. > > (My latest copy of Grubiaks' book is out on loan, > > so I cannot
give its > > publication details.) > > > > However, to support the denigration by
Ryan that > > Guernsey is mythology, he > > slams it with the non sequitur stick,
of its > > currents situation. No one > > has ever claimed that the use by
Guernsey of > > rebuilding its markets and > > amenities with interest free money
would become a > > permanent feature of its > >
administration; but on the contrary. The book > > detailed how the English > >
banks tried to get the Island States prohibited > > from their currency issues, >
> but because of the > > prosperity so widely applauded, the English > >
Government refused to > > co-operate. But the banks didn't give up, and > >
offered particularly > > favourable borrowing terms to the islanders. The > >
authors finally predicted > > that a combination of time, fading memories, and >
> continuing pressure from > > the banks to stop being different from the
mainland, > > could see Guernsey > > again moving back into the clutches of the
debt > > merchants (inter alia). > > > > Ryan is just confirming the Grubiaks'
predictions. > > From 1935 to 1950 the > > N.Z. Government > > used its
Reserve Bank credit at computed "cost" of > > 1%, to backstop (ie: > >
underwrite the shortfalls) in the building of > > hydro schemes, railways, > >
state houses, etc, and so despite the economic > > benefits of that, the > >
international banks maintained continuous pressure > > against it to the 2 main >
> political parties, and eventually got the practice > > stopped. At the same
> > time we had a network of community banks covering > > the whole country > >
providing very competitive loans for home builders, > > and grants to their > >
communities. So in the Al Capone philosophy , > > their > > Boards of Directors
were made cash offers that were > > "too good to be > > refused" , and in one
fell swoop the 20 or so > > community banks sold out to > > Westpac of
Australia, except for the massive > > Auckland one which was taken > > over by
the HKSB; just leaving one in New Plymouth > > and the Southland > > Savings Bank
based in Invercargill. (Neither are > > commercially big, or a > > threat.) > > >
> Should we now expect Ryan to say that because the > > government here does
not > > now use any Reserve Bank credit to support its > > policies, its boom
years were > > also just mythology ? > > > > Let's try learning from history
instead of rewriting > > it........ > > > > Don B. > > > > ++++++++++++++++++ > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John G Rawson > >
[mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 09:53 > > To:
socialcredit@elistas.com >
> Subject: [socialcredit] Guernsey > > > > > > I have several times in different places expressed > > my despair at the > > looseness of so many Socred writers in not > > "referencing" their quotes > > precisely. By contrast, the communists have always > > done this superbly, even > > if their references may often have been to lies told > > by other communists. S > > now we are faced with a situation with reference to > > Guernsey where one side > > says it's a myth and the other claims it is well > > documented but doesn't > > produce the documentation. (Sorry, Don., it's not > > you, it's the original > > literature.) > > > > So we are reduced to the situation where the > > "myth" exists as a hypothesis > > to be disproved. > > > > I would
therefore like our Moderator to produce > > his proof: > > > > 1. That the
construction of the Guernsey > > marketplace was not financed > > debt-free by
redeemable (bonds), and, > > > > 2. That it was financed either on loan or by > >
finance provided by pirates > > or whatever. > > > > I'm not interested in a
reference to a modern > > website. If you looked at an > > (in)appropriate NZ
Govt. one I am sure you would get > > the inference at least > > that banks
always lend savings. > > > > > > John R. >
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