| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Guernsey | | Date: | Wednesday, April 27, 2005 19:45:22 (-0700) | | From: | Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu @....ca>
|
Hi Bill,
In C M Hattersley's book, "Wealth, Want and War", the Guernsey note issue is
covered in Appendix F. As a preface to that CMH notes "The following is
re-printed from the issue of "Prosperity" for April 1933, and thanks are due
the Editor and Publisher of that paper for their ready permission. The
Article was contributed by Mr. John Le Marquand, former Constable of St.
Lawrence, who secured his information from a lecture delivered some years
ago by another Mr. Le Marquand, Supervisor to the States of Guernsey."
I have tried to scan in the whole article itself for you, but I'm afraid it
wouldn't work with what we have here. Hopefully someone else may have
better luck, and you can receive the whole thing. A couple of sections are
quite interesting, and I've typed them out below.
"In 1827 the Old Bank was founded, followed by the Commercial Bank in 1830,
and both Banks circulated their own notes, and the Island appears to have
been flooded with paper money, so much so that in September , 1836, the
matter was submitted to the consideration of the States, and again the
Bailiff -Daniel de Lisle Brock - makes a strong appeal to the States in
favour of the right of the States to issue notes being supreme to that of
the Banks and to defend the rights and interests of the States and the
community, so that circulation of States notes should not be prejudiced."
"From the report of the debate one would have imagined that the result would
have been that the private issue of the Banks would have been withdrawn but
the truth was stranger than fiction, for the result was an agreement between
the States and the Banks that the former should withdraw 15,000 pounds worth
of their notes, and that in future their issue should not exceed 40,000
pounds. This agreement remained in force up to the outbreak of war in 1914,
when the States notes in circulation valued 41,206 pounds."
It does not say why this decision was made, but the States notes had been
previously redeemable in 10 years out of "Impot duties and the revenue from
butcher's shops". The 'impot duties' were on liquor.
A later section states:-
"Immediately following the outbreak of war, the demand for money was such
that the Royal Court passed an Ordinance making States notes and those of
the Banks legal tender, and limiting the issues of the Banks to that at the
moment in circulation, the result being that the States then got their own
back on the Banks, as their issue was unlimited, and the demand was so great
that notes had to be printed in Guernsey to keep things going....... the
note issue of the states rose to 142,000 pounds at 31st December 1918.
The article concludes:-
"The amalgamantion of the Local Banks with English banking concerns resulted
in cessation of the private note issues of the Banks, and we are indebted to
the co-operation of the Guernsey branches of the English Banks in issuing
local notes unless Treasury notes are specifically asked for. The States
note issue today fluctuates between 150,000 pounds and 200,000 pounds and is
undoubtedly a great benefit to the Island. A loan of 175,000 pounds at 5
per cent redeemable in 30 years, would cost the States annually 11,383
pounds in interest and redemption. Our note issue for approximately the
same sum costs us 450 pounds per annum; so that it is up to every patriotic
Guernseyman to use States notes in his local transactions and by so doing
keep down the taxation which bears on each and every one of us."
Hope that is of some assistance, though it would undoubtedly be better if
you could access the whole article.
Regards, Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "William B. Ryan" <w_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:04 AM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Guernsey
> I have recently acquired a copy of the Grubiak book
> through the good graces of Wally Klinck. It is
> typical of the propaganda (the big lie) genre in
> having no footnotes or references that can be
> verified independently through comparison against
> original sources. The appeal is strictly to emotion
> and prejudice. But at the front is this:
>
> "ACKNOWLEDGMENTS: Our most profound gratitude is due
> to M. Guillemette, States Supervisor of Guernsey, who
> supplied all the information we requested, and
> responded to our tiresome importunities with
> unfailing kindness and helpfulness. Our thanks are
> also due to Mr. Galt, General Manager of Glasgow
> Corporation Markets, for the information (necessarily
> limited by the complicated nature of the records
> involved) which he kindly supplied. We are indebted
> for the historical material dealing with Guernsey up
> to 1937, to C. Marshall Hattersley's book, 'Wealth,
> Want and War.' Last, but not least, we must thank the
> generous sponsors who made this book financially
> possible."
>
> There are no original sources referenced here, you
> might note. The earliest dated material is C.
> Mashall Hattersley's book, apparently published in
> 1937. I don't have that book, nor is it available
> locally--so I've reached for the moment a dead end in
> tracing the provenance of the story.
>
> (While we're on this subject, perhaps someone will
> send me a copy of C. Marshall's book. And perhaps
> Martin Hattersley, a subscriber to this list, will
> inform us as to the disposition of his father's many
> copyrights. They represent an important part of the
> corpus of historic Social Credit literature that
> should be preserved.)
>
> There is, however, the last appendix to the Grubiak
> book, purporting to be the reprint of a document. It
> is headed: "Historic Reply of the STATES of GUERNSEY
> to the Privy Council, justifying the Guernsey
> Experiment. Here published, for the first time in
> full, since 1829."
>
> But when you actually do read the document in the
> appendix, as I have, you'll find nothing whatever
> about any "experiment." What you will find is merely
> justification by Guernsey to the Privy Council for
> going into debt, and their plan for amortization. In
> the excerpt below, the famous "market" of the story
> is specifically mentioned, but the only word
> associated with it is "debt," not a word about
> printing and spending "money" into circulation "debt-
> free" to pay for it:-
>
> "THE words of the second Order in Council have
> already been cited. The right of levying the duty on
> spirituous liquors is granted for ten years; a
> condition is annexed purporting that the States shall
> not exceed their annual income, and on the contrary,
> that out of the produce of the duty, one thousand
> pounds shall be applied annually to the extinction of
> the debt; that condition is naturally in force for
> the same period, and far the same period only, as the
> grant to which it is annexed; it is necessarily so
> limited, because the means by which it is to be
> fulfilled, the produce of the duty, ceases at the end
> of the ten years for which the duty is granted. THE
> States are bound to prove that they have complied
> with the conditions of that Order; they did so
> comply, when wishing to erect a new Market, they
> applied for and obtained the order of 10th October
> 1820, which imposed on them, at their own request,
> the further obligation of an annual payment of four
> hundred and fifty pounds far ten years."
>
> Look, it's not remarkable that various corporate
> entities, including governmental entities, especially
> in the early nineteenth century, issued securities
> which they tendered directly to vendors and were
> accepted by vendors in payment for things. Not far
> from where I sit is a museum, at Washington-on-the-
> Brazos, the place where the Texas declaration of
> independence was signed in 1836, on one wall of which
> is framed a "stock certificate," issued by the
> township, which circulated as money in the township,
> according to the caption. That's what creditary or
> "negotiable" contractual agreements do--they can be
> transferred from party to party through endorsement,
> explicit or implicit. They've been so used for
> centuries, if not millennia. They are instruments of
> debt that are assets to their holders. Being assets,
> they can be traded.
>
> What is myth is the miracle story that surrounds the
> Guernsey note issue. Like this:
>
> "It's perfectly reasonable for anyone to ask if there
> is any nation in the world today smart enough to use
> interest-free money. And, if so, what have been the
> consequences. Canada's Finance Minister, who claims
> (on the previous page) that governments 'printing
> money...leads to hyperinflation' obviously hasn't
> heard of the success of interest-free money on the
> Isle of Guernsey, or if he has, he must surely claim
> that Guernsey defies reason--his reason. Because, not
> only has 'inflation' never been evident on the island
> of Guernsey, but it has had a stable and prosperous
> economy for over one hundred and fifty years...
>
> "When Dr. Jacques Jaikaran visited Guernsey in 1990,
> he reported on the state of the Guernsey economy in
> his book The Debt Virus:
>
> "There were about 60,000 permanent residents; the
> average family owned 3.3 cars; their unemployment
> rate was zero and their standard of living was very
> high. Also, there was no public debt and a surplus of
> public funds was earning them interest. The Guernsey
> Treasury increased the money supply by 50% over a 3
> year period and this increase did not cause any
> inflation. The price for a gallon of gas in the UK
> was about $5, but the price in Guernsey was about $2.
> Contrary to the teachings of economics in all higher
> institutions, inflation, it was claimed, was not
> related to the volume of money, but rather to the
> size of the commercial debt."
> http://www.monetary-reform.on.ca/archives/6d.shtml
> -
>
>
>
> --- donzbeth@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>
> > Don Replies: Hi John, The book I referred to is
> > "The Guernsey
> > Experiment" by O. & J. Grubiak, which I first met
> > about 50 years ago, as
> > available for decades through the (U.K.) Social
> > Credit Co-ordinating
> > Centre, plus the Christian Book Club of U.S.A., and
> > later a book publisher
> > in Western Australia. It was described as a
> > thoroughly researched study for
> > posterity of the detailed financial history of the
> > use by the States of
> > Guernsey of interest free credit they created on
> > behalf of their community.
> > I have never ever seen or heard of anyone
> > challenging any detail of its
> > accuracy.... From a virtually bankrupt island state,
> > they changed to such a
> > prosperous little haven that they became the envy of
> > the English mainland.
> > (My latest copy of Grubiaks' book is out on loan,
> > so I cannot give its
> > publication details.)
> >
> > However, to support the denigration by Ryan that
> > Guernsey is mythology, he
> > slams it with the non sequitur stick, of its
> > currents situation. No one
> > has ever claimed that the use by Guernsey of
> > rebuilding its markets and
> > amenities with interest free money would become a
> > permanent feature of its
> > administration; but on the contrary. The book
> > detailed how the English
> > banks tried to get the Island States prohibited
> > from their currency issues,
> > but because of the
> > prosperity so widely applauded, the English
> > Government refused to
> > co-operate. But the banks didn't give up, and
> > offered particularly
> > favourable borrowing terms to the islanders. The
> > authors finally predicted
> > that a combination of time, fading memories, and
> > continuing pressure from
> > the banks to stop being different from the mainland,
> > could see Guernsey
> > again moving back into the clutches of the debt
> > merchants (inter alia).
> >
> > Ryan is just confirming the Grubiaks' predictions.
> > From 1935 to 1950 the
> > N.Z. Government
> > used its Reserve Bank credit at computed "cost" of
> > 1%, to backstop (ie:
> > underwrite the shortfalls) in the building of
> > hydro schemes, railways,
> > state houses, etc, and so despite the economic
> > benefits of that, the
> > international banks maintained continuous pressure
> > against it to the 2 main
> > political parties, and eventually got the practice
> > stopped. At the same
> > time we had a network of community banks covering
> > the whole country
> > providing very competitive loans for home builders,
> > and grants to their
> > communities. So in the Al Capone philosophy ,
> > their
> > Boards of Directors were made cash offers that were
> > "too good to be
> > refused" , and in one fell swoop the 20 or so
> > community banks sold out to
> > Westpac of Australia, except for the massive
> > Auckland one which was taken
> > over by the HKSB; just leaving one in New Plymouth
> > and the Southland
> > Savings Bank based in Invercargill. (Neither are
> > commercially big, or a
> > threat.)
> >
> > Should we now expect Ryan to say that because the
> > government here does not
> > now use any Reserve Bank credit to support its
> > policies, its boom years were
> > also just mythology ?
> >
> > Let's try learning from history instead of rewriting
> > it........
> >
> > Don B.
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John G Rawson
> > [mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 09:53
> > To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> > Subject: [socialcredit] Guernsey
> >
> >
> > I have several times in different places expressed
> > my despair at the
> > looseness of so many Socred writers in not
> > "referencing" their quotes
> > precisely. By contrast, the communists have always
> > done this superbly, even
> > if their references may often have been to lies told
> > by other communists. S
> > now we are faced with a situation with reference to
> > Guernsey where one side
> > says it's a myth and the other claims it is well
> > documented but doesn't
> > produce the documentation. (Sorry, Don., it's not
> > you, it's the original
> > literature.)
> >
> > So we are reduced to the situation where the
> > "myth" exists as a hypothesis
> > to be disproved.
> >
> > I would therefore like our Moderator to produce
> > his proof:
> >
> > 1. That the construction of the Guernsey
> > marketplace was not financed
> > debt-free by redeemable (bonds), and,
> >
> > 2. That it was financed either on loan or by
> > finance provided by pirates
> > or whatever.
> >
> > I'm not interested in a reference to a modern
> > website. If you looked at an
> > (in)appropriate NZ Govt. one I am sure you would get
> > the inference at least
> > that banks always lend savings.
> >
> >
> > John R.
>
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