In-Reply-To: <MCBBLOEGDNFMNFMOAAKLEEJFCIAA.donzbeth@ihug.co.nz>
My apologies to all concerned, but this post brings home my frustration in
not being able to get a grip of all the Fascinating debate that lands in
my in basket from all sorts of interesting people, even the abusive ones
:-) on the subject that interests and engages me most, that is monetary
reform. And its PRACTICAL application.
Can Anybody sort me out please.
Which lists should I be in? do they connect? and why do I find it so
difficult to join what seem the obvious ones???
Especially as there mow seems to be considerable interest in what is STILL
referred to erroneously as the "Guernsey Experiment".
I have tried to join this correspondence, and I am not at all sure who I
have made contact with, because posts still arrive that are clearly not
connected. And some of my attempts to post bounce :-(
As a Channel Islander myself. And having made concerted efforts over a
long number of years to piece together exactly what the situation is, both
now, and in the distant past, I have a concerned interest in this
discussion.
Help please :-)
Ken.
-------- Original Message --------
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Dear Henry& Kindred Spirits,
Congratulations on your initiative in ordering some copies for Godzone of
"The Policy of a Philosophy". That angle was one which hooked me into S.C.
in "The Elements of Social Credit" textbook, with almost half of the total
book dissecting, promoting and applying the scientic (engineering)
philosophies without a single mention of money, till later chapters.
Please send me a copy of your import as soon as it is available, and
includeon its C.O.D.
Invoice a copy of the newly acquired book by Louis Even , which Mrs
Sandford had on show (presumably from you) at our April S.C.Institute
Meeting at her home. Member John Gibson asked me to get a copy for him
when next in touch with you. I'll deliver it to him . Send them to me
please, preferably to P.O. Box 910, Hamilton.(Age of Plenty?)
Your initiative in communicating directly with an Officer in the States of
Guernsey asking for details on the use of interest free credit seems
fine,but don't hold your breath on getting something interesting or
helpful. Thechances are it will be similar to what you would get from the
N.Z. Ministerof Finance if you currently wrote him for details of what
extent the LabourGovernment in N.Z. made of the credit creating capacity
of the N.Z.Reserve Bank. Firstly, Electronz actually has a copy of a
letter from himwhich asserts that banks only lend deposits - which we
both know isabsolute rubbish, but it makes him
look good to the banking spin doctors. Secondly, if pressed, Dr. Cullen
will assert that while a previous Labour Government may have recklessly
played around with credit creation, it now only uses "responsible"
policies which are internationally acceptable....
But again, you and I know that the greatest boom in N.Z.'s living standards
was associated with the extensive use of Reserve Bank credit by the first
Labour Government. From a different and probably more logical viewpoint,
among the 36 emails in my box this week referring to the Guernsey
Experiment, virtually all relate to one or more of 6 writers or
politicians who contend and apparently believe that locally created notes/
credit/bonds/ debt, or whatever nomenclature is chosen, to finance the
physical infrastructure of the place, converting it from virtual
bankruptcyinto a thriving community. On the other hand we have one only
verbosecorrespondent who rails against the absence of sources and
references, andthen immediately in his own arrogant way, and with a total
absence ofcredible support or references, damns them as "mythology"
from the proLincoln group thousands of miles across the Atlantic.
If this group list is prepared to take seriously one person's baseless
criticism of both Social Credit and monetary reform, and completely
disregard the scores of pages of material , in this instance, written about
the Guernsey Experiment, by a number of different writers and community
minded people, then the likelihood of this list serving any useful purpose
is zilch. It's also just been drawn to my attention that the textbook by
R. Rands,
"The Problem of Money" as reprinted several times in other countries, also
contains a 1.5
page summary of that experiment, which matches all the main points already
covered.
But in case anyone wants to hit me again with a non sequitur stick by
sayingthat Guernsey was not Social Credit, let me get in first, and
emphasize thatwhat was done in Guernsey, and Worgyl, and lots of other
places detailed in"Money the Decisive Factor" by a couple of highly
respected U.K. monetaryresearchers, was a demonstration that idle
resources could be mobilized to produce community assets by the proper use
of community credit, without having to borrow it at interest from the
banks. By coincidence if you like, this is entirely consistent with the
Douglas philosophy of managing the "Ticket System" of money as a
mechanism,to achieve specific and desirable results.
-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Raynel [mailto:henry.raynel@actrix.gen.nz]
Sent: Saturday, 30 April 2005 11:14
To: Wallace M. Klinck; socialcredit@elistas.com
Cc: Trevor Crosby; Stephnie de Ruyter; Rodney Shakespeare; Peter Haines;
Neville Aitchison; Lowell Manning; John Rabarts; John Pemberton; John G
Rawson; errol Baird; Doug lever; Don Bethune; David Wilson; Bill Daly;
BarryRaynel; Peter Raynel; Trevor Barnard; Holmes Gary; Robert Hislop;
GarryKnapp; Geoffrey Lawn >; Ray Palmer; N.Z. Democratic Party
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Guernsey -- Wally (referencing in Social
Credit documents)
Hello Wally & John,
John W Hughes new book "Major Douglas" "The Policy of a Philosophy" I
havetaken the risk of buying a few for the New Zealand market and it sells
at$49.95 plus packing and postage.$55.00 posted.
Henry Raynel.
-----Original Message-----
From: Wallace M. Klinck [mailto:wmklinck@shaw.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 7:52 p.m.
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Guernsey -- Wally (referencing in Social
Credit documents)
John,
I agree that although it may not be the only criterion relating to the
worth of an idea or statement, referencing should be complete and precise
insofar as possible. I believe that in this respect you would be
relativelypleased with the Canadian edition of British author John W.
Hughes recent300-page book, "Major Douglas: The Policy of a Philosophy:"
(Edmonton:Brightest Pebble Publishing, 2004) Refer:
herb@brightest-pebble.com . Thebook is a very attractive, professionally
produced and bound paperback whichretails at about $34.95 Cdn. (I would
expect that it is, or will be,available from the Australian League of
Rights for those who might prefer toorder "down under.") The
printer-publisher has a long history of producingboth popular and academic
works.
As to Guernsey, I have sent a direct request to the Guernsey Government
office enquiries@tax.gov.gg, worded as below (No reply, for what it may be
worth, has been received in the short time since this enquiry was sent.):
Dear Sir/Madam,
Inasmuch as there is a considerable discussion and debate on the
Internet regarding the so-called "Guernsey Experiment", popularized by
Olive and Jan Gruibiak in their book entitled "The Guernsey Experiment",
with which I am sure you are familiar, I would like to enquire as to
whetheror not the story given in the Grubiaks' book is essentially a
correctaccount of the financial policy of Guernsey dating back to the
early 1800's?That is to say, did the States Council, facing a need for
considerablephysical improvements to the Island and a heavy debt with
onerous interestcharges making further borrowing and taxation virtually
impossible,implement a policy of States Notes creation issued without debt
or attachedinterest charges in order to finance great improvements to the
infrastuctureof the Island? Were Notes issued judiciously in this manner
and retired, asI understand the matter, with equal care by the means of
import duties asthese public assets depreciated--the end results being an
abundance ofamenities, very low taxation, no public debt and a lower
price-level thanthat on the British mainland?
Any information which you could provide which might either confirm or
refute the above account would be greatly appreciated inasmuch as this
aspect of Guernsey's historical public financial policy has become widely
promulgated, discussed and debated on the Internet--and setting the record
straight would, I think, provide a valuable public service.
Yours very sincerely
Wallace M. Klinck
----- Original Message -----
From: John G Rawson
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:53 PM
Subject: [socialcredit] Guernsey
I have several times in different places expressed my despair at the
looseness of so many Socred writers in not "referencing" their quotes
precisely. By contrast, the communists have always done this superbly,
evenif their references may often have been to lies told by other
communists. Snow we are faced with a situation with reference to Guernsey
where one sidesays it's a myth and the other claims it is well documented
but doesn'tproduce the documentation. (Sorry, Don., it's not you, it's
the originalliterature.)
So we are reduced to the situation where the "myth" exists as a
hypothesis to be disproved.
I would therefore like our Moderator to produce his proof:
1. That the construction of the Guernsey marketplace was not financed
debt-free by redeemable (bonds), and,
2. That it was financed either on loan or by finance provided by
pirates or whatever.
I'm not interested in a reference to a modern website. If you looked
at an (in)appropriate NZ Govt. one I am sure you would get the inference at
least that banks always lend savings.
John R.
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Dear=20
Henry& Kindred Spirits,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Congratulations on your initiative in ordering some copies for =
Godzone of=20
"The Policy of a Philosophy". That angle was one which hooked me =
into S.C.=20
in "The Elements of Social Credit" textbook, with almost half of the =
total book=20
dissecting, promoting and applying the scientic (engineering) =
philosophies=20
without a single mention of money, till later chapters.=20
&=
nbsp; =20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Please=20
send me a copy of your import as soon as it is available, and include on =
its=20
C.O.D. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Invoice a copy of the newly acquired book by Louis Even , =
which Mrs=20
Sandford had on show (presumably from you) at our April =20
S.C.Institute Meeting at her home. Member John =
Gibson=20
asked me to get a copy for him when next in touch with you. I'll =
deliver=20
it to him . Send them to me please, preferably to =
P.O.=20
Box 910, Hamilton.(Age of Plenty?)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Your=20
initiative in communicating directly with an Officer in the States of=20
Guernsey asking for details on the use of interest free =
credit=20
seems fine, but don't hold your breath on getting something interesting =
or=20
helpful. The chances are it will be similar to what you would get =
from the=20
N.Z. Minister of Finance if you currently wrote him for =
details of=20
what extent the Labour Government in N.Z. made of the credit =
creating capacity of the N.Z. Reserve Bank. Firstly, Electronz =
actually=20
has a copy of a letter from him which asserts that =
banks only=20
lend deposits - which we both know is absolute rubbish, but it =
makes=20
him</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>look=20
good to the banking spin doctors. Secondly, if pressed, Dr. Cullen =
will=20
assert that while a previous Labour Government may have recklessly =
played=20
around with credit creation, it now only uses "responsible" =
policies=20
which are internationally acceptable....</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>But=20
again, you and I know that the greatest boom in N.Z.'s living standards =
was=20
associated with the extensive use of Reserve Bank credit by =
the first=20
Labour Government. From a different and probably
=
more=20
logical viewpoint, among the 36 emails in my box this week =
referring=20
to the Guernsey Experiment, virtually all relate to one or more of =
6=20
writers or politicians who contend and apparently =
believe that=20
locally created notes/ credit/bonds/ debt, or whatever nomenclature is =
chosen,=20
to finance the physical infrastructure of the place, converting it =
from=20
virtual bankruptcy into a thriving community. On the other =
hand we=20
have one only verbose correspondent who rails against the absence =
of =20
sources and references, and then immediately in his own arrogant way, =
and with a=20
total absence of </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>credible support or references, damns them=20
as "mythology" from the pro Lincoln group thousands=20
of miles across the Atlantic. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>If=20
this group list is prepared to take seriously one person's=20
baseless criticism of both Social Credit and monetary =
reform,=20
and completely disregard the scores of pages of material , in =
this=20
instance, written about the Guernsey Experiment, by a number of =
different=20
writers and community minded people, then the likelihood of this =
list=20
serving any useful purpose is zilch. It's also just been =
drawn to my=20
attention that the textbook by R. Rands, </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>"The=20
Problem of Money" as reprinted several times in other countries, also =
contains a=20
1.5 </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>page=20
summary of that experiment, which matches all the main points =
already=20
covered.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>But in=20
case anyone wants to hit me again with a non sequitur stick by saying =
that=20
Guernsey was not Social Credit, let me get in first, and emphasize that =
what was=20
done in Guernsey, and Worgyl, and lots of other places detailed in =
"Money the=20
Decisive Factor" by a couple of highly respected U.K. monetary=20
researchers, was a demonstration that idle </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>resources could be mobilized to produce community assets by the =
proper=20
use of community credit, without having to borrow it at interest =
from the=20
banks. By coincidence if you like, this is entirely consistent with the =
Douglas=20
philosophy of managing the "Ticket System" of money as a =
mechanism, to=20
achieve specific and desirable results.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D520061010-30042005><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Henry Raynel=20
[mailto:henry.raynel@actrix.gen.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, 30 April =
2005=20
11:14<BR><B>To:</B> Wallace M. Klinck; =
socialcredit@elistas.com<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
Trevor Crosby; Stephnie de Ruyter; Rodney Shakespeare; Peter Haines; =
Neville=20
Aitchison; Lowell Manning; John Rabarts; John Pemberton; John G =
Rawson; errol=20
Baird; Doug lever; Don Bethune; David Wilson; Bill Daly; Barry Raynel; =
Peter=20
Raynel; Trevor Barnard; Holmes Gary; Robert Hislop; Garry Knapp; =
Geoffrey Lawn=20
>; Ray Palmer; N.Z. Democratic Party<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[socialcredit]=20
Guernsey -- Wally (referencing in Social Credit=20
documents)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D640095422-29042005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Hello Wally & John,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D640095422-29042005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>John=20
W Hughes new book "Major Douglas" "The Policy of a Philosophy" I =
have=20
taken the risk of buying a few for the New Zealand market and it sells =
at=20
$49.95 plus packing and postage.$55.00 =
posted.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D640095422-29042005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D640095422-29042005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Henry Raynel.</FONT> </SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Wallace M. =
Klinck=20
[mailto:wmklinck@shaw.ca]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 27 April 2005 =
7:52=20
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> socialcredit@elistas.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
[socialcredit] Guernsey -- Wally (referencing in Social Credit=20
documents)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>John,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I agree that although it may not be =
the only=20
criterion relating to the worth of an idea or statement, referencing =
should=20
be complete and precise insofar as possible. I believe that in =
this=20
respect you would be relatively pleased with the Canadian edition of =
British=20
author John W. Hughes recent 300-page book, "Major Douglas: =
The Policy=20
of a Philosophy:" (Edmonton: Brightest Pebble Publishing, =
2004) =20
Refer: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:herb@brightest-pebble.com">herb@brightest-pebble.com</A>=2
0
. The book is a very attractive, professionally produced and =
bound=20
paperback which retails at about $34.95 Cdn. (I would expect =
that it=20
is, or will be, available from the Australian League of Rights for =
those who=20
might prefer to order "down under.") The printer-publisher has =
a long=20
history of producing both popular and academic works.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As to Guernsey, I have sent a =
direct request to=20
the Guernsey Government office <A=20
href=3D"mailto:enquiries@tax.gov.gg">enquiries@tax.gov.gg</A>, =
worded as=20
below (No reply, for what it may be worth, has been =
received in=20
the short time since this enquiry was sent.):</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Sir/Madam,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Inasmuch as there is a considerable =
discussion=20
and debate on the Internet regarding the so-called "Guernsey=20
Experiment", popularized by Olive and Jan Gruibiak in their =
book=20
entitled "The Guernsey Experiment", with which I am sure you are =
familiar, I=20
would like to enquire as to whether or not the story given in the =
Grubiaks'=20
book is essentially a correct account of the financial policy of =
Guernsey=20
dating back to the early 1800's? That is to say, did the =
States=20
Council, facing a need for considerable physical improvements to the =
Island=20
and a heavy debt with onerous interest charges making further =
borrowing and=20
taxation virtually impossible, implement a policy of States =
Notes=20
creation issued without debt or attached interest =
charges in order=20
to finance great improvements to the infrastucture of the =
Island? Were=20
Notes issued judiciously in this manner and retired, as I understand =
the=20
matter, with equal care by the means of import duties as =
these=20
public assets depreciated--the end results being an abundance of =
amenities,=20
very low taxation, no public debt and a lower price-level than that =
on the=20
British mainland?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Any information which you could =
provide which=20
might either confirm or refute the above account would be greatly=20
appreciated inasmuch as this aspect of Guernsey's historical=20
public financial policy has become widely promulgated, =
discussed=20
and debated on the Internet--and setting the record straight would, =
I think,=20
provide a valuable public service.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yours very sincerely</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wallace M. =
Klinck</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Djohngrawson@hotmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com">John G Rawson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 26, =
2005 3:53=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [socialcredit]=20
Guernsey</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>I have several times in different places expressed my despair =
at the=20
looseness of so many Socred writers in not "referencing" their =
quotes=20
precisely. By contrast, the communists have always done this =
superbly, even if their references may often have been to lies =
told by=20
other communists. S now we are faced with a situation with =
reference to=20
Guernsey where one side says it's a myth and the other claims it =
is well=20
documented but doesn't produce the documentation. (Sorry,=20
Don., it's not you, it's the original literature.)</P>
<P>So we are reduced to the situation where the "myth" exists as a =
hypothesis to be disproved.</P>
<P>I would therefore like our Moderator to produce his proof: </P>
<P>1. That the construction of the Guernsey marketplace was not =
financed=20
debt-free by redeemable (bonds), and,</P>
<P>2. That it was financed either on loan or by finance provided =
by=20
pirates or whatever.</P>
<P>I'm not interested in a reference to a modern website. If you =
looked at=20
an (in)appropriate NZ Govt. one I am sure you would get the =
inference at=20
least that banks always lend savings.<BR></P>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#339933 size=3D4>John R.</FONT></DIV></DIV><BR =
clear=3Dall>
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Check out the latest video at <A=20
href=3D"http://g.msn.com/8HMBENNZ/2734??PS=3D47575"; =
target=3D_top>Xtra Broadband=20
</A>
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RE: [socialcredit]
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