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Messages from 1261 to 1320
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| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Douglas and original sin -- Wally responds | | Date: | Friday, May 13, 2005 14:51:44 (+0100) | | From: | Timothy Carpenter <timbeau_hk @........uk>
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| In reply to: | Message 1281 (written by Wallace M. Klinck) |
Re: [socialcredit] Douglas and original sin -- Wally responds
Dear Wally,
Tim in blue
On 13/5/05 7:42 am, "Wallace M. Klinck" <wmklinck@shaw.ca> wrote:
Comments in RED -- Wally
----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Carpenter <mailto:timbeau_hk@yahoo.co.uk>
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Douglas and original sin
On 8/5/05 5:19 pm, "Jim" <jschroeder@shaw.ca> wrote:
This is an offense to the Jews, and an absurdity to the Greeks. But it is salvation.
[WALLY: I cannot seem to find this message from Jim but if memory serves I believe your response is in reply to what I think was his claim that the Incarnation "is salvation" (to the Christian).]
the above was cut from his message and as such is verbatim. The full passage is:
This is what seperates the ideas of the New Testament from the Old. God is not just an abstraction (omnipotent, omniscient.......). He is flesh and blood. This is an offense to the Jews, and an absurdity to the Greeks. But it is salvation.
Then I must be a Greek Jew ;-). [WALLY: I have wondered about this and I think I understand very well what you are implying. Nevertheless, I also think you owe us a clarification of this seemingly rather arcane statement if you want it understood beyond doubt and to give others an opportunity to respond to it.]
Simply put, I do not accept the Pauline concept of Jesus being God or Son of God, nor the immaculate conception for it appears irrational. It appears to be more of a marketing ploy by Paul to allow gentiles to relate to the movement. I also have no time for the idea of ‘original sin’, nor of the concept that Jesus ‘died on the cross for us’ or other such guilt-inspiring, manipulative and oppressive constructs. It is a masterly, circular dependency which has rarely been surpassed but has been far-outdone by the Holy Quran. I have no doubt Jesus the man existed and was crucified. Did he die on the cross? Likely but possibly not, for he may have appeared to others at a later date and in secret (hinting at mortality and survival). Was he God made Flesh? Almost certainly not. And before you say it, no, I have not read The daVinci Code.
Tim
P.s. “to have your cake and eat it” refers to wanting to keep something untouched but wanting to use it – keeping your savings while spending it might be an appropriate alternative for this list. [WALLY: I speak here in Social Credit parlance and mean something quite different to the conventional meaning, Tim. The conventional meaning reinforces the orthodox ideas regarding scarcity and justification for the right to consume. I refer to the Social Credit concept of the automatic right of society to consume the products flowing from industry evermore independent of contributed labour as technology replaces labour as a factor of production. The repeated claim that one "cannot have their cake and it too" is a repeated propaganda statement which is designed to instill in the "public mind" that scarcity reigns and that only work is the basis for salvation and the justification for consumption. Such propaganda is destructive to Social Credit (and Christian) ideas and must be countered, by advocates for Social Credit, wherever and whenever they are encountered. You should have noted Douglas's provision that all new production should be financed by new credits--and not from savings, because savings are required to liquidate old financial costs incurred in earlier production.]
Wally – I think I see your point, but then again it does nothing to reduce my concerns as to the effects of the discount. As to the last sentence, I shall be turning to this soon in my discussion with Jim, but there is much in what you say that I agree in terms of retained earnings. The solution, however, is another matter.
Tim
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