| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] a new Christianity | | Date: | Monday, May 16, 2005 23:15:09 (-0700) | | From: | Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 @.....com>
|
Keith ,Wally and all in the list ,
Greetings for peace,
This is my first post to this list .I have been communicating with GJM
members earlier. While not ignoring the discussion , I would like to seek
consensus on the new "Christianity"- set of communcation from Christ
(PBUH) that is reaffirmed in communication through Muhammmad (PBUH), the
last messenger of Allah/God for humanity.
The key issue for us ,having respect to the word of God is to abolish
usurious financial transaction and that is that is what is proposed ,
through social credit that is interest free- following the commands of
Allah/God. There are verses in Quraan establishing the fact that credit to
Allah has the best reward and this is through donations of surplus wealth.
Robley E George also calls for democractic consensus on creating
mechanisms for maximum allowable wealth.
I would like to focus on the sharing of the commands in the monotheistic
texts and that will instantly destroy the difference , we all appear to
have on the interest/usury.
Discussing personalties with published work will be more meaningful then.
Respectfully
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
http://muhammad_mukhtar_alam.tigblog.org
--- Keith Wilde <keithwilde@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> It hasn't occurred to me to care what it is called; it is the concept
> that
> is of interest. Maybe some controversy can persuade me to take an
> opinion,
> however.
>
> Keith
>
>
> At 07:48 AM 05/16/2005 -0700, you wrote:
> >Hi Keith,
> >
> >I think the term Douglas used (in one of his earlier books)was National
> >Credit 'Office', not 'Authority'. That latter may well have originated
> with
> >John Hargreave, who seemed to have a more 'authoritarian' outlook on
> things
> >than did Douglas. I believe that Douglas used the term National Credit
> >Office to put across the idea that national accounts could be managed
> for
> >the benefit of the people, since at the time, (post world War One)
> Great
> >Britain apparently had a National Debt Office to oversee the huge war
> >'debt.'
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Joe
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Keith Wilde" <keithwilde@sympatico.ca>
> >To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>; <ownership@cog.kent.edu>
> >Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 4:55 AM
> >Subject: Re: [socialcredit] a new Christianity
> >
> >
> >> Bill Ryan wrote:
> >>
> >> "As to the National Credit Authority, I have not seen where Douglas
> used
> >> the term "authority." I think you
> >> will find his term was always the National Credit Account, an
> entirely
> >> different idea that relates to
> >> policy rather than formal structure. ... I think the contrasting idea
> of
> >> National Credit Authority originated with John Hargrave, leader of
> the
> >> Green Shirts."
> >> ---------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> I don't know about origin. The following is quoted from a paper
> titled "A
> >> National Balance Sheet" sent to me on separate occasions by Wally
> Klinck
> >and
> >> Victor Bridger, authorship attributed to Victor:
> >>
> >> "A National Credit Authority would not determine policy but be
> responsible
> >> for producing a proper and correct set of accounts on which policy
> could
> >be
> >> based. ...Two major accounts that could be kept by the Authority
> would be
> >a
> >> National Resources, Capital and Wealth Account. ...The second account
> >should
> >> be a National Credit Account... .:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "William B. Ryan" <w_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
> >> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>; <ownership@cog.kent.edu>
> >> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 11:55 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] a new Christianity
> >>
> >>
> >> > There were two questions, Keith. Please answer the
> >> > second:
> >> >
> >> >>> I am fishing for a way to help out the frustrated
> >> >>> political promoters of the Douglas
> >> >>> political-economic reforms. I think I see one...
> >> >
> >> > What is that "one" way that you think you see? Please
> >> > be specific.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > It is from the National Credit Account, analogous to
> >> > the capital account (in a coherent set of books in
> >> > double entry accounting), that dividends (discount,
> >> > etc.) would be paid.
> >> >
> >> > In effect, the National Credit Account would be
> >> > debited, personal accounts would be credited
> >> > correspondingly. Increasing productive capacity would
> >> > be credited to the National Credit Account as it
> >> > accrues. Dividends would allow the people to draw
> >> > upon that capacity, as they see fit.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The authority already exists in the various central
> >> > banks. The difficult part is to get them to change
> >> > their policy.
> >> > -
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- Keith Wilde <keithwilde@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> The credit authority, dividend and discount. What
> >> >> else?
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "William B. Ryan" <w_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
> >> >> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> >> >> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 10:20 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] a new Christianity
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > [Keith Wilde] "I am fishing for a way to help out
> >> >> the
> >> >> > frustrated political promoters of the Douglas
> >> >> > political-economic reforms."
> >> >> > --------------------
> >> >> > ---------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Will you please list what you think those reforms
> >> >> are?
> >> >> > :-
> >> >> >
> >> >> > [Keith Wilde] "I think I see one..."
> >> >> > --------------------
> >> >> > ---------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> > And what would that be?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Don't be coy, Keith. Spit it out.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --- Keith Wilde <keithwilde@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Very interesting as usual, Michael, and highly
> >> >> >> believable. It helps to explain the
> >> >> disappointment
> >> >> >> (bitterness) of his later years and his
> >> >> >> vulnerability to the Jewish bankers' conspiracy
> >> >> >> theory. Another way of putting it is that
> >> >> Douglas
> >> >> >> was writing 'creation science' for his times--a
> >> >> >> reconciliation of science and religion that had
> >> >> some
> >> >> >> practical application for the social order.
> >> >> Good,
> >> >> >> clean fun and hardly objectionable on any grounds
> >> >> >> that occur to me at the moment.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The line of thought I am pursuing here is the
> >> >> >> apparent lack of success in selling the new
> >> >> >> Christianity broadly enough to make it an
> >> >> effective
> >> >> >> political force. The longer this goes on, the
> >> >> less
> >> >> >> apt will Douglas' original reconciliation appear
> >> >> in
> >> >> >> the light of expanding knowledge (on the
> >> >> >> socio-biological frontier), encouraging the
> >> >> >> remaining disciples to retreat into the smugly
> >> >> >> defensive-vindictive attitude that "if you don't
> >> >> buy
> >> >> >> into the religion you don't deserve the
> >> >> 'heavenly'
> >> >> >> reward of a truly Christian (Douglasian)
> >> >> >> political-economic-and-social order." I am
> >> >> >> resisting the interpretation that failure to
> >> >> >> appreciate Douglas' contribution to political
> >> >> >> economy entails the conclusion that the
> >> >> unconvinced
> >> >> >> are really objecting to his religious philosophy.
> >> >> >> Some of his affirmations, such as "institutions
> >> >> were
> >> >> >> made to serve the individual, not the other way
> >> >> >> round" are clearly mystical, and this one in
> >> >> >> particular is anthropological nonsense as a
> >> >> >> statement of fact. If it is converted to a value
> >> >> >> judgment, however, it is quite
> >> >> unexceptionable--i.e.
> >> >> >> they should serve the individual. Furthermore,
> >> >> this
> >> >> >> value judgment can be quite painlessly extracted
> >> >> >> from most people (I'm guessing here, but have
> >> >> plans
> >> >> >> to test it) by the recital of some post-Darwinian
> >> >> >> statements about the place of humankind in
> >> >> Nature.
> >> >> >> (E.O. Wilson would go further here, to affirm
> >> >> that a
> >> >> >> normative judgment like this can be inferred from
> >> >> >> factual statements. I do not agree with that as a
> >> >> >> logical step; only that the chain of reasoning on
> >> >> >> factual statements makes it easy for most normal
> >> >> >> humans to accept the value judgment.)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I am fishing for a way to help out the frustrated
> >> >> >> political promoters of the Douglas
> >> >> >> political-economic reforms. I think I see one,
> >> >> but
> >> >> >> also suspect that it is being inhibited by
> >> >> >> doctrinaire insistence of the pure on swallowing
> >> >> a
> >> >> >> whole camel. How's that from a bible-thumper?!
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Keith
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >> From: Triumphofthepast@aol.com
> >> >> >> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> >> >> >> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 1:30 PM
> >> >> >> Subject: [socialcredit] a new Christianity
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "Douglas recognized the nature of his pedagogic
> >> >> >> challenge and sought to meet it by giving a novel
> >> >> >> spin to familiar notions like 'religion' and
> >> >> >> 'original sin', hoping
> >> >> >> thereby to persuade a nation of churchgoers
> >> >> that
> >> >> >> he was really on their side by giving new life to
> >> >> >> old words." (Thumper)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> There is way more to it than this, Thumper, and
> >> >> >> Douglas simply wasn't that kind of a man, would
> >> >> >> never have used such language merely as a
> >> >> rhetorical
> >> >> >> devise. He used it because it meant something to
> >> >> >> HIM. The fact is, Douglas was not alone in
> >> >> >> rebaptizing Christian concepts. Robert Johnson,
> >> >> >> currently writing a biography on Charles Ferguson
> >> >> >> (for doctoral credit, but this is a full-fledged
> >> >> >> book and will almost certainly be published)
> >> >> notes
> >> >> >> it as a fashion of the time. Douglas and others
> >> >> >> were trying reading the Gospels fresh without
> >> >> >> preconceptions about "Christianity." Rather than
> >> >> >> the catechism, their touchstone was Life as they
> >> >> >> experienced it. Compare Douglas's statement that
> >> >> >> Christianity had not yet been tried.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> You used the word "mysticism" before. Yes, it
> >> >> was
> >> >> >> a species of mysticism, which might sound strange
> >> >> in
> >> >> >> conjunction with an emphasis on "practicality,"
> >> >> but
> >> >> >> is not really.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The Scottish novelist George MacDonald was
> >> >> another
> >> >> >> original Christian mystical thinker whose thought
> >> >> I
> >> >> >> find very akin to Douglas and Ferguson. I am
> >> >> >> passionately interested in this line of thinking
> >> >> >> myself. So this is not just spin to woo an
> >> >> >> audience. It is real.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Michael
> >> >
> >> > __________________________________________________
> >> > Do You Yahoo!?
> >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >> >
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> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> Keith Wilde
> Ottawa
> keithwilde@sympatico.ca
> 613 990-8125
>
> "The metaphor is probably the most fertile power possessed by man."
> J. Ortega y Gasset
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