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RE: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
core statement of William
scale Triumpho
dividend, cultural Triumpho
RE: dividend, cult William
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
RE: scale in a+b William
dividend, cultural Triumpho
personal Triumpho
Re: dividend, cult William
Re: [socialcredit] Martin H
Re: [socialcredit] Martin H
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] Vic Brid
"Production and Di Wallace
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
RE: [socialcredit] William
Re: "Production an William
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] John G R
RE: [socialcredit] donzbeth
RE: [socialcredit] William
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
RE: [socialcredit] William
Re: Nothing Vic Brid
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
RE: [socialcredit] William
Re: RE: [socialcre cymric
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"The Fig Tree" donzbeth
Re: RE: [socialcre John G R
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
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What is Social Cre William
Re: [socialcredit] W. McGun
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Re: "The Fig Tree" William
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"The Fig Tree"--G donzbeth
Re: [socialcredit] Kenneth
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Re: [socialcredit] Jim
Re: [socialcredit] John G R
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Re: [socialcredit] cymric
Re: [socialcredit] William
democracy, voting Per Almg
Re: [socialcredit] Martin H
Re: RE: [socialcre cymric
#6 on the Evolving Wesley S
Re: [socialcredit] W. McGun
Re: [socialcredit] cymric
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Subject:Re: [socialcredit] Re:- The Dream vs.the Reality ~ CIR in BC
Date:Saturday, July 2, 2005  11:11:51 (+1000)
From:Vic Bridger <socred @.......au>

There are many different forms of CIR and many more arguments and opinions against them. The fact that those in operation have shortcomings is not an argument for tossing the baby out with the bath water.
 
In the first instance people elect candidates not of their choosing and who have no responsibility towards their constituents. Once elected they must accept the dictates of the party, or at least the elite in the party (or outside) on policy determined by those elite. Even the rank and file have no say in determining policy although there is always a pretence that they do.
 
CIR properly instituted would not mean that referenda would determine policy. What CIR means that the people can ensure that the government does carry out policies to their, the peoples' satisfaction.With the right of recall built in it provides the opportunity to dismiss any politician or government who does not satisfy the peoples' wants and needs.
 
A government has the right to govern but only for the benefit of the people at large. People should have the right to stop an unwanted law, amend a law or institute a law they think is desirable. Obviously there are many steps to go through before all of this could occur but at least the people would have the right backed by sanctions to call such a referendum. Properly instituted no amount of money or propaganda could affect what the people really want. It is often overlooked that if CIR was set up properly no hairbrain or minority group could hijack it. Proper procedures would ensure that the result would need to be set by the total population.
 
Cir is not intended to be a means to set policy on all matters before a government. It would be silly to have a referendum to decide whether the defence system should have a battleship or a destroyer. A government should not consist of experts on all matters nor can it be. There are experts for that and if they come up with the wrong advice they can be sacked. Cir is a control measure and the sooner that elected representatives recognise that it is not a matter of taking power away from them but could actually assist in better government for the people the sooner we move towards proper Democracy.
 
Apart from all of this it should be evident that without the means to control a government the introduction of Social Credit is just a dream. Again, just because of these circumstances it is regarded as a dream does not make it either wrong or impossible.
 
Finally may I make the observation that political action is not synonymous with political party involvement.I believe that all Social Crediters should be involved in political action but outside the party system. Joe is correct in his comments and it most unlikely that anything will change until we see independent representatives elected to serve their constituents. perhaps the quickest way to achieve this would be for people to continue to vote informal and eductae others to do the same. After all an informal vote provides the same access to government as a vote for a party candidate.
Vic B
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 1:13 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re:- The Dream vs.the Reality ~ CIR in BC

You are right, CIR in BC was made as difficult as possible.  And Recall only slightly less so.  The debate over CIR at the time the legislation was enacted involved the 'supremacy' of Parliament, and whether it would be wise or not to compromise that.  The NDP obviously thought not.  The original BC 'Socred' proposal was, as I recall, more in line with what Vic Bridger's attachment outlined.  I believe the spectre of what happened in California after their infamous CIR 'Proposition 13' measure to limit State taxes weighed  upon the NDP, who are traditionally a 'socialist' oriented, borrow, spend and tax  Party that believes ''Big Brother knows best."  Long as they're "Big Brother".
 
The way CIR is structured here at present it is virtually useless, yet any proposal to put some 'teeth' in it would likely run right back into all the reasons given 10 years ago why that's not advisable.  Martin Hattersley, on his website, once had a very well considered article on governing by Referendums, and some of the disadvantages.  Perhaps he might reproduce it for the List. 
 
 While I'm not at all opposed to CIR to determine 'policy', my own concern remains how it would be possible to simply decide what is 'policy' in regards to many issues without venturing into what should clearly be regarded as areas  of  'administration'.  Also, and I believe this was an element in some of the 'timber' CIRs in California, how fair is it to have  heavily populated urban areas, easily susceptible to the pseudo-science of some well-funded 'Environmental' group's propaganda, voting to end a way of life long enjoyed by a less populated rural region?  Which is then forced to try to match that propaganda and often well-paid, professional activism, dollar for dollar in a highly uncertain effort to get their message out? 
 
There is, in such instances, no equivalent whatever to the "Senate" in American, Australian, and to a lesser extent Canadian federal politics.  Or the ''House of Lords'' in Britain.  A place where the proposed legislation either also has to pass, or where it at least can be given a good 'second look' before it becomes law. And no body which represents 'area', that can be a venue for objection to a 'population' dominated Initiative. 
 
Joe
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Re:- The Dream vs.the Reality ~ CIR in BC

Thanks for pointing out some pitfalls;  looks as though it was made as difficult as possible.  The clause requiring a certain number in every electorate in particular.  Lethargy and a different philosophy in our Maori seats alone would make that very difficult here.

While I'm not directly involved in this particular campaign, it seems to me our organisers manage to put it over a great deal more simple and briefly than it has been portrayed in this group and that it has every chance of gaining support.

I don't know how your politicians are regarded; ours are rated below some of the very least popular groups.  That doesn't help when it washes off even on us as "just politicians" but would help immensely a trans-political movement like this.

Regards.   John R.




>From: Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
>Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>Subject: [socialcredit] Re:- The Dream vs.the Reality ~ CIR in BC
>Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:13:42 -0700
>
>In the waning days of the last BC 'Social Credit' Party government of Premier Bill Vander Zalm, there was a promise made to pass legislation enabling both 'Recall' and 'CIR'. That Premier was brought down by a conflict of interest scandal, where he was perceived to have benefitted personally by abusing his position in a private real estate transaction involving the sale of his business, before the legislation could be enacted. At that time, early 1990's, there had been considerable discussion in BC on the desireability of both CIR and Recall, and the whole concept of 'direct democracy' was on the ascendant here. After the election of 1991, a New Democratic Party government took office, and, being conscious of the fact that CIR and Recall had seized the public consciousness, promised to bring in both measures. It might be noted that the NDP, in BC and Canada, is roughly the equivalent of the Labour Party in Australia, and elsewhere. Below is a summary of the NDP's version of CIR, which is now law in BC. Further details, if desired, can be accessed by viewing the BC Social Credit Party's website www.bcsocialcredit.bc.ca and then clicking on the link marked 'Elections BC'. The fate of the 'petitions' launched under CIR and Recall are recounted there. As a result, I would say the issue has been removed from the public 'consciousness' here for some time to come.
>
>The Initiative Process in British Columbia - Brochure
>
>Overview
>
>The Recall and Initiative Act allows voters in British Columbia to propose new laws or changes to existing laws.
>
>The Application Process
>
>Any registered voter can apply to have a petition issued to gather support for a legislative proposal. A legislative proposal (or draft Bill) can be on any matter within the constitutional jurisdiction of the provincial Legislature.
>
>A registered voter who wants to start an initiative petition must obtain an application from the Chief Electoral Officer. A completed application consists of a fully completed and signed application form, a copy of the draft Bill, and a non-refundable $50 processing fee. The draft Bill must be written in a clear and unambiguous manner.
>
>Approval in Principle
>
>If the application and draft Bill meet the requirements of the Recall and Initiative Act, the Chief Electoral Officer notifies the applicant (the "proponent") that approval in principle will be granted and that a petition will be issued. Approval in principle of an application is officially granted at the time a Notice of Petition is published in the British Columbia Gazette. Notice is also published in daily newspapers throughout the Province.
>
>Opponent Registration
>
>An individual or organization who wishes to oppose an initiative may apply to the Chief Electoral Officer within 30 days after the day on which notice is published in the Gazette.
>
>The Chief Electoral Officer appoints the financial agent for opponents and opponent groups from the names they propose. An opponent or opponent group must not act as such until given notice by the Chief Electoral Officer that they are registered and that an individual has been appointed as financial agent.
>
>Initiative Petition Period
>
>Sixty days after notice is published in the Gazette, the Chief Electoral Officer issues a cover sheet and an original petition signature sheet for each electoral district to the proponent. An initiative petition must be signed within 90 days from the date on which it is issued.
>
>Canvasser Registration
>
>A proponent may be helped by volunteers to gather signatures. The volunteers are called "canvassers". Canvassers must be registered voters and must have been a resident of British Columbia for at least six months before the date on which they intend to begin canvassing. Registered voters may apply to be canvassers any time after the petition application has been submitted to the Chief Electoral Officer.
>
>Collecting Signatures on the Petition
>
>The Recall and Initiative Act requires that an initiative petition be signed by 10 percent of the registered voters in each of the electoral districts of the Province.
>
>An initiative petition can only be signed by a registered voter who was registered to vote on the date the petition was issued. A person may only sign the petition signature sheet for the electoral district in which they are a registered voter at the time of signing. A signature on the petition must be accompanied by the residential address of the individual who signed and must be witnessed by the individual who canvassed the signature (a registered canvasser).
>
>Submitting Petitions
>
>The proponent must submit, at one time, all of the petition pages containing signatures to the Chief Electoral Officer. The petition period ends when the proponent submits the petition to the Chief Electoral Officer, regardless of whether the full 90 days have elapsed.
>
>Petition Verification
>
>When a petition is submitted, the Chief Electoral Officer has 42 days to complete the verification process. Petition signatures are verified to ensure that the people who signed the petition were entitled to do so and that the signatures on a petition match the signatures on file for those voters. Signatures that do not include the residential address of the voter who signed the petition will not be counted. The registration status of canvassers is also verified to ensure that signatures were gathered by authorized individuals.
>
>Referral of Initiative to a Select Standing Committee
>
>If the verification process shows that sufficient signatures have been collected in every electoral district, and the financing requirements have been met by the proponent, the Chief Electoral Officer sends a copy of the petition and draft Bill to a Select Standing Committee on Legislative Initiatives.
>
>The Select Standing Committee must meet within 30 days of receipt of the petition and draft Bill. From their first meeting, the Committee has 90 days to consider the legislative proposal and either table a report recommending introduction of the draft Bill, or refer the initiative to the Chief Electoral Officer for an initiative vote.
>
>After a Bill is introduced in the Legislature, the requirements of the Recall and Initiative Act have been satisfied, and any subsequent readings, amendments and passage of the Bill will proceed as with any other Bill.
>
>Initiative Vote
>
>If an initiative vote is required, a vote will be held on September 28, 1996, and on the last Saturday of September in every third year after that date. If more than 50 percent of the total number of registered voters in the Province vote in favour of the initiative, and more than 50 percent of the total number of registered voters in each of at least two-thirds of the electoral districts in the Province vote in favour of the initiative, the Chief Electoral Officer must declare the initiative vote to be successful and government must introduce the Bill at the earliest practicable opportunity.
>
>Financing and Advertising
>
>There are detailed provisions in the Recall and Initiative Act regarding the disclosure and limits of expenditures and financial contributions permitted during the initiative petition process and during an initiative vote.
>
>Contributions to initiative proponents and opponents are not eligible for income tax receipts.
>
>Initiative advertising can only be conducted by a proponent, registered opponent or a registered advertising sponsor. It is very important that participants follow these rules. Non-compliance can result in significant penalties.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
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--------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at 
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium 
You're subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca 
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit 

--------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at 
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium 
You're subscribed to this list with the email socred@ecn.net.au 
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit 

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