In-Reply-To: <001b01c598ab$791e8500$0d6537d2@computer>
Hi William.
I have hesitated to enter a debate about the working practices and leisure
time of the English in history. But now that you have brought in
E.P.Thompson it is clear that things are opening up. And if there are
those who really wish to know what were the conditions they now know that
some reading is necessary.
For as you say we are speaking not of one snapshot, but a long period of
time, and a great difference of geography. There are very many answers to
the question.
Once you start with Thompson, a very good start indeed, it is necessary to
go on to Cobbet, and his "Rural rides" The Hammonds, and to Tawny.
Much of my own life has been spent in the North of England, where I live
now, and it is possible to think of the "South" being a different world.
My late wife Kathleen, who went from school at fourteen to work in the
woolen mills of the West Riding of Yorkshire, used to tell tales of "St.
Monday". The workers method of getting back at T`Gaffers for the tyranny
of the mill whistle.
Ken.
-------- Original Message --------
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Another reference to the position of the working class in the early =
Industrial Revolutuon can be found in the classic historical volume by =
E.P.Thompson " The Making of the English Working Class". He devotes the =
whole of Chapter 12 pp 441-488 to contrasting the developing "money =
economy" of the Industrial Revolution to the semisubsistence economy =
that preceded it. He emphasises the contrasting lifestyle of the two and =
the necessary regimentation of the population to fit it into an urban =
environment. He comments about the progressive repression of "feast =
days" by urban authorities using the excuse of maitaining public order =
to do so. Nevertheless travelling players were still present and fairs =
and festivals well into the19th century.There was a concerted effort =
particularly by the early Methodist Church to uproot and eliminate =
pre-industrialist traditions in the form of 'feast days' from urban =
areas. The prudish nature of that church condemned much of the revelry =
as "sinful", especially dancing and drinking.
E.P.Thompson's book is a powerful description of the status of the =
peasants who became the "workingclass" in rapidly industrialising =
Britain. It explains the forces at work that altered the economic =
position of these people quite comprehensively. The book itself =
contrasts quite markedly with the sanitised history of the UK from =
academics originating from the "Oxbridge" school. Thompson actually =
consulted people in the North of England and the urban records in those =
areas to get his facts. Needless to say he was heavily critised by the =
english "traditionalist" Historians who found their own interpretations =
of North of England History under sustained attack.=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Keith Wilde=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Thorold Rogers_a self edit
I find that there are some passages in what I wrote last night that do =
not appear very clear this morning. Corrected in italics and/or square =
brackets.
KW
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Keith Wilde=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Thorold Rogers
It's puzzling. I cannot find a statement quite like the one cited =
below by Michael. I already quoted the one that says there were only =
five holidays besides Sundays. That was on p. 181. I have read entire =
chapters surrounding the pages cited by Michael without encountering the =
"forty days plus Sundays". What I do find, on p. 539 is this:
"The workman of the fifteenth century only missed eighteen days of =
the year, of which a fortnight was at Christmas, three days at Easter, =
three at Whitsuntide, and six on other days scattered over the year."
In the following paragraph Rogers says that he has taken the best =
prices of artizan labour in the best English market for such labour [in =
1883-4] in order to contrast them, improved as they are by trade unions, =
to the prices paid spontaneously for such labor in England of the 1450s. =
As of 1884 they were only just barely catching up. These improved =
circumstances are compared, on page 398, with the miseries of English =
labour after Henry VIII. "I repeat for the last time, what a husbandman =
earned with fifteen weeks' work, and an artizan with ten weeks' work in =
1495, a whole years' labor would not supply artizan or labourer with in =
the year 1725, throughout Lancashire." On page 391 he had already said, =
"The work of a whole year would not supply the labourer with the =
quantity which in 1495 the labourer earned with fifteen weeks labour. =
The artizan could procure it with forty weeks labour. [As contrasted to =
a year.]
The theme of this chapter (surrounding p. 389) is an analysis of =
what we call today "inflation". That is, after there was a general rise =
in prices in the fifteenth century (which some 20th century economic =
historians have attributed to the gold stolen by Spanish =
conquistadores), Rogers looked for evidence of wages paid in money and =
compared them with what he could find of prices for the things that =
laborers had to buy. The data he provides are therefore all about =
comparing prices versus what they would buy in various years after 1495 =
with what they bought in that year and before.
Jumping back even further into the previous chapter, Rogers =
addresses the conditions that he believes account for at least part of =
the changes that worsened the conditions of the working classes. That =
is, the scandals of the 3-popes era in the church and parallel =
corruptions in the courts and aristocracy. On pp. 367-8 he says:
"I have stated frequently that the fifteenth century was an epoch of =
peculiar prosperity, that the means of life were cheap, that wages were =
high, that the price of land went rapidly up, that English commerce =
increased, that enterprise...was general, that the yeomanry and small =
gentry were firmly planted, and that remarkable opulence was attained by =
many." A little later he mentions that "Lollardy...infected all those =
who prospered and grew rich...[and] was hardy and vigorous." [The =
influence of Wycliffe in the 14th century.] I am far from well read in =
English history, but I do recall the observation of economic historians =
that following the Great Plague or Black Death, so many workers [died] =
that those who survived did enjoy the benefit of a supply-demand =
imbalance in their favor. The cognizance of this opportunity combined =
with repressive regimes above them is said to have sparked the Peasants' =
Revolt of the 14th century and its brutal suppression. Rogers seems to =
affirm that the underlying circumstances continued to operate in favor =
of workers right through to the end of the 15th century.
Keith
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Triumphofthepast@aol.com=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:53 AM
Subject: [socialcredit] Thorold Rogers
In Triumph of the Past for June 1997 I made the following =
statement and citation:
"The English artisan of 1495 worked an eight-hour day, could pay =
his family's grocery bill for a year with ten weeks' work, and enjoyed =
forty holidays besides Sundays." (Rogers, Six Centuries of Work and =
Wages, pp. 389, 542)
I didn't note the edition, but I expect Keith can locate the =
quotes.
Michael=20
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Another reference to the position of =
the working=20
class in the early Industrial Revolutuon can be found in the classic =
historical=20
volume by E.P.Thompson " The Making of the English Working =
Class". He=20
devotes the whole of Chapter 12 pp 441-488 to contrasting the developing =
"money=20
economy" of the Industrial Revolution to the semisubsistence economy =
that=20
preceded it. He emphasises the contrasting lifestyle of the two and =
the=20
necessary regimentation of the population to fit it into an urban =
environment.=20
He comments about the progressive repression of "feast days" by urban=20
authorities using the excuse of maitaining public order to do so. =
Nevertheless=20
travelling players were still present and fairs and festivals well into =
the19th=20
century.There was a concerted effort particularly by the early Methodist =
Church=20
to uproot and eliminate pre-industrialist traditions in the form of =
'feast days'=20
from urban areas. The prudish nature of that church condemned much of =
the=20
revelry as "sinful", especially dancing and drinking.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =
E.P.Thompson's book=20
is a powerful description of the status of the peasants who became the=20
"workingclass" in rapidly industrialising Britain. It explains the =
forces at=20
work that altered the economic position of these people quite =
comprehensively.=20
The book itself contrasts quite markedly with the sanitised history =
of the=20
UK from academics originating from the "Oxbridge" school. Thompson =
actually=20
consulted people in the North of England and the urban records in those =
areas to=20
get his facts. Needless to say he was heavily critised by the english=20
"traditionalist" Historians who found their own interpretations of North =
of=20
England History under sustained attack. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dkeithwilde@sympatico.ca =
href=3D"mailto:keithwilde@sympatico.ca">Keith=20
Wilde</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 04, 2005 =
12:08=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
Thorold=20
Rogers_a self edit</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I find that there are some passages =
in what I=20
wrote last night that do not appear very clear this morning. =
Corrected=20
in italics and/or square brackets.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>KW</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dkeithwilde@sympatico.ca =
href=3D"mailto:keithwilde@sympatico.ca">Keith=20
Wilde</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 02, =
2005 10:12=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
Thorold=20
Rogers</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It's <EM>puzzling</EM>. I =
cannot find a=20
statement quite like the one cited below by Michael. I already =
quoted=20
the one that says there were only five holidays besides =
Sundays. That=20
was on p. 181. I have read entire chapters surrounding the =
pages cited=20
by Michael without encountering the "forty days plus Sundays". =
What I=20
do find, on p. 539 is this:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"The workman of the fifteenth =
century only=20
missed eighteen days of the year, of which a fortnight was at =
Christmas,=20
three days at Easter, three at Whitsuntide, and six on other days =
scattered=20
over the year."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In the following paragraph Rogers =
says that he=20
has taken the best prices of artizan labour in the best English =
market for=20
such labour [<EM>in 1883-4</EM>] in order to contrast them, =
improved as=20
they are by trade unions, to the prices paid spontaneously for such =
labor in=20
England of the 1450s. As of 1884 they were only just barely =
catching=20
up. These improved circumstances are compared, on page 398, =
with the=20
miseries of English labour after Henry VIII. "I repeat for the last =
time,=20
what a husbandman earned with fifteen weeks' work, and an artizan =
with ten=20
weeks' work in 1495, a whole years' labor would not supply artizan =
or=20
labourer with in the year 1725, throughout Lancashire." On =
page 391 he=20
had already said, "The work of a whole year would not supply the =
labourer=20
with the quantity which in 1495 the labourer earned with fifteen =
weeks=20
labour. The artizan could procure it with forty weeks labour. =
[As=20
contrasted to a year.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The theme of this chapter =
(surrounding p. 389)=20
is an analysis of what we call today "inflation". That is, =
after there=20
was a general rise in prices in the fifteenth century (which some =
20th=20
century economic historians have attributed to the gold stolen by =
Spanish=20
conquistadores), <EM>Rogers looked for evidence of wages paid =
in money=20
and compared them with what he could find of prices for the things =
that=20
laborers had to buy</EM>. The data he provides are =
therefore all=20
about comparing prices versus what they would buy in various years =
after=20
1495 with what they bought in that year and before.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jumping back even further into the =
previous=20
chapter, Rogers addresses the conditions that he believes account =
for at=20
least part of the changes that worsened the conditions of the =
working=20
classes. That is, the scandals of the 3-popes era in the =
church and=20
parallel corruptions in the courts and aristocracy. On pp. =
367-8 he=20
says:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"I have stated frequently that the =
fifteenth=20
century was an epoch of peculiar prosperity, that the means of life =
were=20
cheap, that wages were high, that the price of land went rapidly up, =
that=20
English commerce increased, that enterprise...was general, that the =
yeomanry=20
and small gentry were firmly planted, and that remarkable opulence =
was=20
attained by many." A little later he mentions that =
"Lollardy...infected all=20
those who prospered and grew rich...[and] was hardy and vigorous." =
[The=20
influence of Wycliffe in the 14th century.] I am far from well =
read in=20
English history, but I do recall the observation of economic =
historians that=20
following the Great Plague or Black Death, so many workers=20
[<EM>died</EM>] that those who survived did enjoy the benefit =
of a=20
supply-demand imbalance in their favor. The cognizance of this =
opportunity combined with repressive regimes above them is said to =
have=20
sparked the Peasants' Revolt of the 14th century and its brutal=20
suppression. Rogers seems to affirm that the underlying =
circumstances=20
continued to operate in favor of workers right through to the end of =
the=20
15th century.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Keith</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DTriumphofthepast@aol.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:Triumphofthepast@aol.com">Triumphofthepast@aol.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 02, =
2005 7:53=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [socialcredit] =
Thorold=20
Rogers</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV><FONT=20
face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3D"Goudy Old Style" =
size=3D3=20
FAMILY=3D"SERIF" PTSIZE=3D"12">In <I>Triumph of the Past</I> for =
June 1997 I=20
made the following statement and citation:<BR><BR>"The English =
artisan of=20
1495 worked an eight-hour day, could pay his family's grocery bill =
for a=20
year with ten weeks' work, and enjoyed forty holidays besides=20
Sundays." (Rogers, <I>Six Centuries of Work and Wages,</I> =
pp. 389,=20
542)<BR><BR>I didn't note the edition, but I expect Keith can =
locate the=20
quotes.<BR><BR>Michael</FONT>=20
=
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