| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Thorold Rogers_a self edit | | Date: | Thursday, August 4, 2005 21:14:29 (-0600) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <hattersleyjm @.........com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 2360 (written by Keith Wilde) |
One other thing that interests me is the effect of "enclosures" of common land
on the general welfare of the working classes, particularly in England in the
sixteenth century when sheep farming became popular.. That's where our nursery
rhymes such as "Hark hark, the dogs to bark, the beggars are coming to town" and
"Baa Baa black sheep ... with "one for my master and one for his dame, but none
for the little boy that cries in the lane" originate. Similarly, the effect of
rents payable in Ireland, leading to depopulation (see Goldsmith's "Deserted
Village") and the depopulation of the Scottish Highlands - both of which led to
waves of emigration by the destitute to the New World.
Monopoly of land ownership (often financed by those who have access to the
monopoly of credit) can be a source of poverty as severe as any other.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Wilde
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Thorold Rogers_a self edit
I find that there are some passages in what I wrote last night that do not
appear very clear this morning. Corrected in italics and/or square brackets.
KW
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Wilde
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Thorold Rogers
It's puzzling. I cannot find a statement quite like the one cited below by
Michael. I already quoted the one that says there were only five holidays
besides Sundays. That was on p. 181. I have read entire chapters surrounding
the pages cited by Michael without encountering the "forty days plus Sundays".
What I do find, on p. 539 is this:
"The workman of the fifteenth century only missed eighteen days of the year,
of which a fortnight was at Christmas, three days at Easter, three at
Whitsuntide, and six on other days scattered over the year."
In the following paragraph Rogers says that he has taken the best prices of
artizan labour in the best English market for such labour [in 1883-4] in order to
contrast them, improved as they are by trade unions, to the prices paid
spontaneously for such labor in England of the 1450s. As of 1884 they were only
just barely catching up. These improved circumstances are compared, on page 398,
with the miseries of English labour after Henry VIII. "I repeat for the last
time, what a husbandman earned with fifteen weeks' work, and an artizan with ten
weeks' work in 1495, a whole years' labor would not supply artizan or labourer
with in the year 1725, throughout Lancashire." On page 391 he had already said,
"The work of a whole year would not supply the labourer with the quantity which
in 1495 the labourer earned with fifteen weeks labour. The artizan could procure
it with forty weeks labour. [As contrasted to a year.]
The theme of this chapter (surrounding p. 389) is an analysis of what we
call today "inflation". That is, after there was a general rise in prices in the
fifteenth century (which some 20th century economic historians have attributed to
the gold stolen by Spanish conquistadores), Rogers looked for evidence of wages
paid in money and compared them with what he could find of prices for the things
that laborers had to buy. The data he provides are therefore all about
comparing prices versus what they would buy in various years after 1495 with what
they bought in that year and before.
Jumping back even further into the previous chapter, Rogers addresses the
conditions that he believes account for at least part of the changes that
worsened the conditions of the working classes. That is, the scandals of the
3-popes era in the church and parallel corruptions in the courts and aristocracy.
On pp. 367-8 he says:
"I have stated frequently that the fifteenth century was an epoch of
peculiar prosperity, that the means of life were cheap, that wages were high,
that the price of land went rapidly up, that English commerce increased, that
enterprise...was general, that the yeomanry and small gentry were firmly planted,
and that remarkable opulence was attained by many." A little later he mentions
that "Lollardy...infected all those who prospered and grew rich...[and] was hardy
and vigorous." [The influence of Wycliffe in the 14th century.] I am far from
well read in English history, but I do recall the observation of economic
historians that following the Great Plague or Black Death, so many workers [died]
that those who survived did enjoy the benefit of a supply-demand imbalance in
their favor. The cognizance of this opportunity combined with repressive regimes
above them is said to have sparked the Peasants' Revolt of the 14th century and
its brutal suppression. Rogers seems to affirm that the underlying circumstances
continued to operate in favor of workers right through to the end of the 15th
century.
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From: Triumphofthepast@aol.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:53 AM
Subject: [socialcredit] Thorold Rogers
In Triumph of the Past for June 1997 I made the following statement and
citation:
"The English artisan of 1495 worked an eight-hour day, could pay his
family's grocery bill for a year with ten weeks' work, and enjoyed forty holidays
besides Sundays." (Rogers, Six Centuries of Work and Wages, pp. 389, 542)
I didn't note the edition, but I expect Keith can locate the quotes.
Michael
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<DIV><FONT size=2>One other thing that interests me is the effect of
"enclosures" of common land on the general welfare of the working classes,
particularly in England in the sixteenth century when sheep farming became
popular.. That's where our nursery rhymes such as "Hark hark, the dogs to bark,
the beggars are coming to town" and "Baa Baa black sheep ... with "one for my
master and one for his dame, but none for the little boy that cries in the lane"
originate. Similarly, the effect of rents payable in Ireland, leading to
depopulation (see Goldsmith's "Deserted Village") and the depopulation of the
Scottish Highlands - both of which led to waves of emigration by the destitute
to the New World.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Monopoly of land ownership (often financed by those who have
access to the monopoly of credit) can be a source of poverty as severe as any
other.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB
CANADA<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=keithwilde@sympatico.ca href="mailto:keithwilde@sympatico.ca">Keith
Wilde</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 03, 2005 6:08
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Thorold
Rogers_a self edit</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I find that there are some passages in what I
wrote last night that do not appear very clear this morning. Corrected
in italics and/or square brackets.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>KW</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=keithwilde@sympatico.ca href="mailto:keithwilde@sympatico.ca">Keith
Wilde</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 02, 2005 10:12
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Thorold
Rogers</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It's <EM>puzzling</EM>. I cannot find a
statement quite like the one cited below by Michael. I already quoted
the one that says there were only five holidays besides Sundays. That
was on p. 181. I have read entire chapters surrounding the pages cited
by Michael without encountering the "forty days plus Sundays". What I
do find, on p. 539 is this:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"The workman of the fifteenth century only
missed eighteen days of the year, of which a fortnight was at Christmas,
three days at Easter, three at Whitsuntide, and six on other days scattered
over the year."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In the following paragraph Rogers says that he
has taken the best prices of artizan labour in the best English market for
such labour [<EM>in 1883-4</EM>] in order to contrast them, improved as
they are by trade unions, to the prices paid spontaneously for such labor in
England of the 1450s. As of 1884 they were only just barely catching
up. These improved circumstances are compared, on page 398, with the
miseries of English labour after Henry VIII. "I repeat for the last time,
what a husbandman earned with fifteen weeks' work, and an artizan with ten
weeks' work in 1495, a whole years' labor would not supply artizan or
labourer with in the year 1725, throughout Lancashire." On page 391 he
had already said, "The work of a whole year would not supply the labourer
with the quantity which in 1495 the labourer earned with fifteen weeks
labour. The artizan could procure it with forty weeks labour. [As
contrasted to a year.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The theme of this chapter (surrounding p. 389)
is an analysis of what we call today "inflation". That is, after there
was a general rise in prices in the fifteenth century (which some 20th
century economic historians have attributed to the gold stolen by Spanish
conquistadores), <EM>Rogers looked for evidence of wages paid in money
and compared them with what he could find of prices for the things that
laborers had to buy</EM>. The data he provides are therefore all
about comparing prices versus what they would buy in various years after
1495 with what they bought in that year and before.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jumping back even further into the previous
chapter, Rogers addresses the conditions that he believes account for at
least part of the changes that worsened the conditions of the working
classes. That is, the scandals of the 3-popes era in the church and
parallel corruptions in the courts and aristocracy. On pp. 367-8 he
says:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"I have stated frequently that the fifteenth
century was an epoch of peculiar prosperity, that the means of life were
cheap, that wages were high, that the price of land went rapidly up, that
English commerce increased, that enterprise...was general, that the yeomanry
and small gentry were firmly planted, and that remarkable opulence was
attained by many." A little later he mentions that "Lollardy...infected all
those who prospered and grew rich...[and] was hardy and vigorous." [The
influence of Wycliffe in the 14th century.] I am far from well read in
English history, but I do recall the observation of economic historians that
following the Great Plague or Black Death, so many workers
[<EM>died</EM>] that those who survived did enjoy the benefit of a
supply-demand imbalance in their favor. The cognizance of this
opportunity combined with repressive regimes above them is said to have
sparked the Peasants' Revolt of the 14th century and its brutal
suppression. Rogers seems to affirm that the underlying circumstances
continued to operate in favor of workers right through to the end of the
15th century.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Triumphofthepast@aol.com
href="mailto:Triumphofthepast@aol.com">Triumphofthepast@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:53
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [socialcredit] Thorold
Rogers</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV><FONT
face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face="Goudy Old Style" size=3
FAMILY="SERIF" PTSIZE="12">In <I>Triumph of the Past</I> for June 1997 I
made the following statement and citation:<BR><BR>"The English artisan of
1495 worked an eight-hour day, could pay his family's grocery bill for a
year with ten weeks' work, and enjoyed forty holidays besides
Sundays." (Rogers, <I>Six Centuries of Work and Wages,</I> pp. 389,
542)<BR><BR>I didn't note the edition, but I expect Keith can locate the
quotes.<BR><BR>Michael</FONT>
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<P><PRE>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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