In-Reply-To: <011301c5996d$5c36afe0$505b22cf@martinh4>
You are quite right to refer to this sort of thing as the driver to
poverty in the UK Martin.
In variation it is a world wide story though.
At a fairly low level it has been with us here for a Thousand Years. The
invasion of William the Bastard was in essence only a land grab. Within
Twenty years all the decent land had been surveyed, so that it could be
taxed. Much of it having been parcelled out in payment to his invading
supporters.
Henry the Eighths "Dissolution" was about the selling off of land to his
lackeys what had previously been available for the support of the people.
OK, so it was in the holding of the Church, but with some glaring
exceptions its product had made the life of many communities bearable in a
pretty brutal age.
The steady loss of the product of the land to private interests bred a
population ripe for driving into urbanisation when our technical knowledge
made the "industrial revolution" a possibility.
Certainly production of goods and services rocketed, and this I suppose
COULD be called "progress". But the twin monopolies of land and money
plotted to make sure that this wealth was not spread amongst the people.
The treatment of those who did not have a strong right arm, or got born
into the right bed was applauding.
Then in our own generation we suffered a second "dissolution".
We had, what you I know are aware of, after WW2 what we called "The post
war settlement". In 1945 Seven Millions of Britons cast aside their
uniforms vowing that the conditions of the 1930s would never happen again.
They got their changes, and for Twenty years the only problems we had were
monetary ones. No surprise THERE then.
You may have read the work of a Prussian militarist called Von Clausvitz,
his book "On War". He said that if the State called out the people in
total war, and demanded of them the ultimate sacrifice, and they won, then
the establishment has GOT to give way to their demands. FOR A WHILE.
Well when TINA was brought to power here. (Their Is No Alternative. Aka
Margaret Thatcher ) I reckon that the time was up. Again the "commons",
all the things that the people had created from their own labours and
taxation, for their common use, was sold off to the speculators for their
private use.
We the people here have a history of having our "commons" stolen, and
appropriated for private gain.
When will we learn?
Ken.
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21:25:42 -0600Message-ID: <011301c5996d$5c36afe0$505b22cf@martinh4>
From: "Martin Hattersley" <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
References: <104.663fcdcb.3020b8b2@aol.com>
<015501c597d0$d5a79a90$1902a8c0@keithb9abaaf21>
<001201c59824$1f8ebd20$1902a8c0@keithb9abaaf21>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005
21:14:29 -0600X-Priority: 3
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Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="=======AVGMAIL-42F2DC360044======="Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Thorold Rogers_a self editX-Envelope-To: kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk
X-UIDL: _iSB.D1u8CB.mta03.mx
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One other thing that interests me is the effect of "enclosures" of =
common land on the general welfare of the working classes, particularly =
in England in the sixteenth century when sheep farming became popular.. =
That's where our nursery rhymes such as "Hark hark, the dogs to bark, =
the beggars are coming to town" and "Baa Baa black sheep ... with "one =
for my master and one for his dame, but none for the little boy that =
cries in the lane" originate. Similarly, the effect of rents payable in =
Ireland, leading to depopulation (see Goldsmith's "Deserted Village") =
and the depopulation of the Scottish Highlands - both of which led to =
waves of emigration by the destitute to the New World.
Monopoly of land ownership (often financed by those who have access to =
the monopoly of credit) can be a source of poverty as severe as any =
other.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,=20
EDMONTON AB CANADA
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Keith Wilde=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Thorold Rogers_a self edit
I find that there are some passages in what I wrote last night that do =
not appear very clear this morning. Corrected in italics and/or square =
brackets.
KW
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Keith Wilde=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Thorold Rogers
It's puzzling. I cannot find a statement quite like the one cited =
below by Michael. I already quoted the one that says there were only =
five holidays besides Sundays. That was on p. 181. I have read entire =
chapters surrounding the pages cited by Michael without encountering the =
"forty days plus Sundays". What I do find, on p. 539 is this:
"The workman of the fifteenth century only missed eighteen days of =
the year, of which a fortnight was at Christmas, three days at Easter, =
three at Whitsuntide, and six on other days scattered over the year."
In the following paragraph Rogers says that he has taken the best =
prices of artizan labour in the best English market for such labour [in =
1883-4] in order to contrast them, improved as they are by trade unions, =
to the prices paid spontaneously for such labor in England of the 1450s. =
As of 1884 they were only just barely catching up. These improved =
circumstances are compared, on page 398, with the miseries of English =
labour after Henry VIII. "I repeat for the last time, what a husbandman =
earned with fifteen weeks' work, and an artizan with ten weeks' work in =
1495, a whole years' labor would not supply artizan or labourer with in =
the year 1725, throughout Lancashire." On page 391 he had already said, =
"The work of a whole year would not supply the labourer with the =
quantity which in 1495 the labourer earned with fifteen weeks labour. =
The artizan could procure it with forty weeks labour. [As contrasted to =
a year.]
The theme of this chapter (surrounding p. 389) is an analysis of =
what we call today "inflation". That is, after there was a general rise =
in prices in the fifteenth century (which some 20th century economic =
historians have attributed to the gold stolen by Spanish =
conquistadores), Rogers looked for evidence of wages paid in money and =
compared them with what he could find of prices for the things that =
laborers had to buy. The data he provides are therefore all about =
comparing prices versus what they would buy in various years after 1495 =
with what they bought in that year and before.
Jumping back even further into the previous chapter, Rogers =
addresses the conditions that he believes account for at least part of =
the changes that worsened the conditions of the working classes. That =
is, the scandals of the 3-popes era in the church and parallel =
corruptions in the courts and aristocracy. On pp. 367-8 he says:
"I have stated frequently that the fifteenth century was an epoch of =
peculiar prosperity, that the means of life were cheap, that wages were =
high, that the price of land went rapidly up, that English commerce =
increased, that enterprise...was general, that the yeomanry and small =
gentry were firmly planted, and that remarkable opulence was attained by =
many." A little later he mentions that "Lollardy...infected all those =
who prospered and grew rich...[and] was hardy and vigorous." [The =
influence of Wycliffe in the 14th century.] I am far from well read in =
English history, but I do recall the observation of economic historians =
that following the Great Plague or Black Death, so many workers [died] =
that those who survived did enjoy the benefit of a supply-demand =
imbalance in their favor. The cognizance of this opportunity combined =
with repressive regimes above them is said to have sparked the Peasants' =
Revolt of the 14th century and its brutal suppression. Rogers seems to =
affirm that the underlying circumstances continued to operate in favor =
of workers right through to the end of the 15th century.
Keith
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Triumphofthepast@aol.com=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:53 AM
Subject: [socialcredit] Thorold Rogers
In Triumph of the Past for June 1997 I made the following =
statement and citation:
"The English artisan of 1495 worked an eight-hour day, could pay =
his family's grocery bill for a year with ten weeks' work, and enjoyed =
forty holidays besides Sundays." (Rogers, Six Centuries of Work and =
Wages, pp. 389, 542)
I didn't note the edition, but I expect Keith can locate the =
quotes.
Michael=20
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>One other thing that interests me is the effect of=20
"enclosures" of common land on the general welfare of the working =
classes,=20
particularly in England in the sixteenth century when sheep farming =
became=20
popular.. That's where our nursery rhymes such as "Hark hark, the dogs =
to bark,=20
the beggars are coming to town" and "Baa Baa black sheep ... with "one =
for my=20
master and one for his dame, but none for the little boy that cries in =
the lane"=20
originate. Similarly, the effect of rents payable in Ireland, leading to =
depopulation (see Goldsmith's "Deserted Village") and the depopulation =
of the=20
Scottish Highlands - both of which led to waves of emigration by the =
destitute=20
to the New World.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Monopoly of land ownership (often financed by those =
who have=20
access to the monopoly of credit) can be a source of poverty as severe =
as any=20
other.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON =
AB=20
CANADA<BR>e-mail: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dkeithwilde@sympatico.ca =
href=3D"mailto:keithwilde@sympatico.ca">Keith=20
Wilde</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 03, =
2005 6:08=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
Thorold=20
Rogers_a self edit</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I find that there are some passages =
in what I=20
wrote last night that do not appear very clear this morning. =
Corrected=20
in italics and/or square brackets.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>KW</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dkeithwilde@sympatico.ca =
href=3D"mailto:keithwilde@sympatico.ca">Keith=20
Wilde</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 02, =
2005 10:12=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
Thorold=20
Rogers</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It's <EM>puzzling</EM>. I =
cannot find a=20
statement quite like the one cited below by Michael. I already =
quoted=20
the one that says there were only five holidays besides =
Sundays. That=20
was on p. 181. I have read entire chapters surrounding the =
pages cited=20
by Michael without encountering the "forty days plus Sundays". =
What I=20
do find, on p. 539 is this:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"The workman of the fifteenth =
century only=20
missed eighteen days of the year, of which a fortnight was at =
Christmas,=20
three days at Easter, three at Whitsuntide, and six on other days =
scattered=20
over the year."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In the following paragraph Rogers =
says that he=20
has taken the best prices of artizan labour in the best English =
market for=20
such labour [<EM>in 1883-4</EM>] in order to contrast them, =
improved as=20
they are by trade unions, to the prices paid spontaneously for such =
labor in=20
England of the 1450s. As of 1884 they were only just barely =
catching=20
up. These improved circumstances are compared, on page 398, =
with the=20
miseries of English labour after Henry VIII. "I repeat for the last =
time,=20
what a husbandman earned with fifteen weeks' work, and an artizan =
with ten=20
weeks' work in 1495, a whole years' labor would not supply artizan =
or=20
labourer with in the year 1725, throughout Lancashire." On =
page 391 he=20
had already said, "The work of a whole year would not supply the =
labourer=20
with the quantity which in 1495 the labourer earned with fifteen =
weeks=20
labour. The artizan could procure it with forty weeks labour. =
[As=20
contrasted to a year.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The theme of this chapter =
(surrounding p. 389)=20
is an analysis of what we call today "inflation". That is, =
after there=20
was a general rise in prices in the fifteenth century (which some =
20th=20
century economic historians have attributed to the gold stolen by =
Spanish=20
conquistadores), <EM>Rogers looked for evidence of wages paid =
in money=20
and compared them with what he could find of prices for the things =
that=20
laborers had to buy</EM>. The data he provides are =
therefore all=20
about comparing prices versus what they would buy in various years =
after=20
1495 with what they bought in that year and before.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jumping back even further into the =
previous=20
chapter, Rogers addresses the conditions that he believes account =
for at=20
least part of the changes that worsened the conditions of the =
working=20
classes. That is, the scandals of the 3-popes era in the =
church and=20
parallel corruptions in the courts and aristocracy. On pp. =
367-8 he=20
says:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"I have stated frequently that the =
fifteenth=20
century was an epoch of peculiar prosperity, that the means of life =
were=20
cheap, that wages were high, that the price of land went rapidly up, =
that=20
English commerce increased, that enterprise...was general, that the =
yeomanry=20
and small gentry were firmly planted, and that remarkable opulence =
was=20
attained by many." A little later he mentions that =
"Lollardy...infected all=20
those who prospered and grew rich...[and] was hardy and vigorous." =
[The=20
influence of Wycliffe in the 14th century.] I am far from well =
read in=20
English history, but I do recall the observation of economic =
historians that=20
following the Great Plague or Black Death, so many workers=20
[<EM>died</EM>] that those who survived did enjoy the benefit =
of a=20
supply-demand imbalance in their favor. The cognizance of this =
opportunity combined with repressive regimes above them is said to =
have=20
sparked the Peasants' Revolt of the 14th century and its brutal=20
suppression. Rogers seems to affirm that the underlying =
circumstances=20
continued to operate in favor of workers right through to the end of =
the=20
15th century.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Keith</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DTriumphofthepast@aol.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:Triumphofthepast@aol.com">Triumphofthepast@aol.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 02, =
2005 7:53=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [socialcredit] =
Thorold=20
Rogers</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV><FONT=20
face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3D"Goudy Old Style" =
size=3D3=20
FAMILY=3D"SERIF" PTSIZE=3D"12">In <I>Triumph of the Past</I> for =
June 1997 I=20
made the following statement and citation:<BR><BR>"The English =
artisan of=20
1495 worked an eight-hour day, could pay his family's grocery bill =
for a=20
year with ten weeks' work, and enjoyed forty holidays besides=20
Sundays." (Rogers, <I>Six Centuries of Work and Wages,</I> =
pp. 389,=20
542)<BR><BR>I didn't note the edition, but I expect Keith can =
locate the=20
quotes.<BR><BR>Michael</FONT>=20
=
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