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Switzerland - dumb Triumpho
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
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Re: productive cap cymric
Re: [socialcredit] Keith Wi
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Thorold Rogers Triumpho
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Thorold Rogers Triumpho
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comment requested Triumpho
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productive capacit Triumpho
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Subject:Re: [socialcredit] Thorold Rogers
Date:Tuesday, August 2, 2005  22:12:44 (-0400)
From:Keith Wilde <keithwilde @.........ca>

It's very strange.  I cannot find a statement quite like the one cited below by Michael.  I already quoted the one that says there were only five holidays besides Sundays.  That was on p. 181.  I have read entire chapters surrounding the pages cited by Michael without encountering the "forty days plus Sundays".  What I do find, on p. 539 is this:
 
"The workman of the fifteenth century only missed eighteen days of the year, of which a fortnight was at Christmas, three days at Easter, three at Whitsuntide, and six on other days scattered over the year."
 
In the following paragraph Rogers says that he has taken the best prices of artizan labour in the best English market for such labour in order to contrast them, improved as they are by trade unions, to the prices paid spontaneously for such labor in England of the 1450s.  As of 1884 they were only just barely catching up.  These improved circumstances are compared, on page 398, with the miseries of English labour after Henry VIII. "I repeat for the last time, what a husbandman earned with fifteen weeks' work, and an artizan with ten weeks' work in 1495, a whole years' labor would not supply artizan or labourer with in the year 1725, throughout Lancashire."  On page 391 he had already said, "The work of a whole year would not supply the labourer with the quantity which in 1495 the labourer earned with fifteen weeks labour.  The artizan could procure it with forty weeks labour. [As contraste to a year.]
 
The theme of this chapter (surrounding p. 389) is an analysis of what we call today "inflation".  That is, after there was a general rise in prices in the fifteenth century (which some 20th century economic historians have attributed to the gold stolen by Spanish conquistadores), what happened to wages and how effectively did they keep up with prices.  The data he provides are therefore all about comparing prices versus what they would buy in various years after 1495 with what they bought in that year and before.
 
Jumping back even further into the previous chapter, Rogers addresses the conditions that he believes account for at least part of the changes that worsened the conditions of the working classes.  That is, the scandals of the 3-popes era in the church and parallel corruptions in the courts and aristocracy. On pp. 367-8 he says:
"I have stated frequently that the fifteenth century was an epoch of peculiar prosperity, that the means of life were cheap, that wages were high, that the price of land went rapidly up, that English commerce increased, that enterprise...was general, that the yeomanry and small gentry were firmly planted, and that remarkable opulence was attained by many." A little later he mentions that "Lollardy...infected all those who prospered and grew rich...[and] was hardy and vigorous." [The influence of Wycliffe in the 14th century.]  I am far from well read in English history, but I do recall the observation of economic historians that following the Great Plague or Black Death, so many workers were killed that those who survived did enjoy the benefit of a supply-demand imbalance in their favor.  The cognizance of this opportunity combined with repressive regimes above them is said to have sparked the Peasants' Revolt of the 14th century and its brutal suppression.  Rogers seems to affirm that the underlying circumstances continued to operate in favor of workers right through to the end of the 15th century.
 
Keith
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:53 AM
Subject: [socialcredit] Thorold Rogers

In Triumph of the Past for June 1997 I made the following statement and citation:

"The English artisan of 1495 worked an eight-hour day, could pay his family's grocery bill for a year with ten weeks' work, and enjoyed forty holidays besides Sundays."  (Rogers, Six Centuries of Work and Wages, pp. 389, 542)

I didn't note the edition, but I expect Keith can locate the quotes.

Michael

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