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Message 2663
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| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Joe on Wal-Mart, Discount and CIR | | Date: | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 17:03:30 (-0600) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <hattersleyjm @.........com>
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| In reply to: | Message 2643 (written by Keith Wilde) |
Isn't the corruption of the political system that you observe the direct result
of the way political parties are financed? Certainly that's my take on where
Conservatism is taking Alberta.
In that regard, I think that Chretien, before he left, made a rather smart and
courageous move (and threw a curve at Paul Martin, his successor) by prohibiting
Corporations from contributing more than a very limited sum to political parties.
It could hurt the Liberal cause severely - though one can always finance one's
party by borrowing from a bank, and "he who pays the piper calls the tune"!
Martin Hattersley, 1970 10123 99St.,
EDMONTON AB Canada T5J 3H1
Phone (780)423-4081:Fax (780)425-5247
e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca,
hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
e-mail: martinh@edmc.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Wilde
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Joe on Wal-Mart, Discount and CIR
A very interesting prospect, Joe. Sufficiently so that I will camp on your
bandwagon for a round or two.
Round one: Next door in the tar sands. It is my understanding that the
resource has been virtually if not absolutely and irrevocably given away to the
developing corporations (i.e. the oil companies), on the understanding that the
benefit to Alberta and to Canada ("unemployed eastern bastards") is jobs. As the
world price of crude goes up, so does the attraction of extraction, and so do
tensions within Canada, as noted on news the past couple of days. Analysis of
crude prices in the New York Times over the past week has focused on a lengthy
analysis last Sunday on the Saudi Arabian resource (featuring a Saudi expert) and
concluding that expectations of increased flow from that source--long a mainstay
of optimistic U.S. energy forecasters, simply cannot and will not be met. That,
plus the failure of an Iraqi government to come together, with the consequent
likelihood that its oil resources will come under control of Iranian Shiites, and
the belligerence of the upstart Chavez in Venezuela does seem to portend long
term high and rising prices for Canadian fossil fuel consumers. "Hey! Isn't it
our oil?" "Sorry, loser; get your ass back in gear and make those credit card
payments!" One of the hot items on the NYT this past week-end has been an
editorial by a staff journalist who has a vacation home in Quebec where he
hobnobs with the hoi poloi of corporate America and Canada. His message: back
off on the belligerence over NAFTA and soft wood; What if the Canadians decide
to hit us where it would really hurt and get anal retentive about oil exports?"
Is this quite plausible scenario likely to wake up a lot of Canadians to
consider the possibility that the government is in fact our enemy, having gone
over to the side of the real power controllers? Might we dream of Harper and
Layton exercising some real leadership and vowing together to lead a dictatorship
of real democracy to its lobbyists, bureaucrats, central bank and financial
regulators? Well, maybe, but I doubt that the campaign could get as far as an
election before the remnants of the U.S. Army showed up to protect the property
of Americans and make Canada safe for freedom. One of my American friends sent
me an article today by Pat Buchanan calling G.W. Bush a traitor to his country
and oath of office for not having repelled the invasion of Arizona and New Mexico
by Mexicans and other Latinos. A real threat, compared to the phony one against
Saddam Hussein! As the U.S. comes unraveled, we will become an increasingly
tempting and easy mark for its power brokers.
Round two: Katrina. Although it is now being tut-tutted as an extreme case
of short-term planning solutions, New Orleans is not unique among North American
or world cities in designing and implementing urban infrastructure to protect and
enhance the collective life of its citizens/residents. Cities are an expression
of community, of collective effort, and much of the infrastructure is financed
and paid for collectively. This fact of modern life is a negation of the
atomistic rationality of standard economics for the past century, as sharply
pointed out by the revolt of the young French graduate students who founded
Post-Autistic Economics (I believe I circulated refrence to a handy account of
this from May Harper's recently). There is growing recognition among Heterodox
Economists (another grouping) that there is more to cultural heritage and
productive capacity than individual actors. Society is important. This is the
primary theme of the Society for Advancement of Socio-Economics, for example,
spurred into being by Amitai Etzioni, among others, who also took a focus on
Communitarian Studies (I don't recall the formal title of this grouping).
Honorary members of the SASE board of directors include venerables like J.K.
Galbraith and other economists whose names don't come back on the instant.
Google it.
My point here is that the cultural heritage includes a growing component of
what public finance and welfare economics literature used to define as
quintessential "public goods". Privatization of public utilities has produced
many disaster stories in the past couple of decades, with taxpayers now forced to
pick of the bill to pay the dismissal costs of scoundrels, when formerly all they
had to do was pay modest utility bills. Furthermore, municipalities are forced
to go to their ratepayers for financing of desperately needed infrastructure
investment, in sewers, water supply, medical services, etc. and are resentful of
senior governments that sit on the national revenues and creditability. I met
around a boardroom lunchtable recently with some local politicians and their
small business colleagues and noted with interest their willingness to listen to
accounts of how Bank of Canada used to control credit (monetary) issue and keep
production going without inflation--during wartime. Then after war, it is
payback time. An interesting connection, war and debt finance. Why does the
Government now do its bank borrowing from private banks rather than the BoC?
(Obviously to help CIBC pay back the hit on its latest mega-folly, Enron.) It
collects taxes to pay interest to banks instead of paying it to the BoC--of which
it is sole shareholder. Shouldn't municipal politicians and citizens be getting a
break from government's constitutional ability to borrow at lower rates of
interest than banks charge, by having loans arranged from the central bank. That
was the rationale of the activists who arranged the luncheon, and their modest
audience were receptive to exploring further. Might this be a source of further
pain that will tip citizens out of their apathetic ignorance? Even in Alberta,
where medical and health care services are being disrupted and curtailed in the
name of private "efficiency" ???????????????????????????????????????????????
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Thomson
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR
Hi Keith,
Douglas discusses Japan in the PDF file Wally provided, "The Douglas System
of Social Credit", which was a transcript of his presentation to the Alberta
Agricultural Commitee in 1934. I seem to recall seeing some other, similar,
comments from him elsewhere, though I'd have to go back and look just where now.
In answer to your question:-
"It does bring up the further question of whether it is conceivable to
implement the Douglas solution in one country, even if its citizens did get
themselves roused sufficiently to take over their government. What then is a
positive strategy for advancing the agenda--aside from the educational program
advocated by Vic Bridger, as we have discussed?"
I would say that would very much depend on the situation that 'prompts' such
an attempt. There are a lot of possibilities. Imagine, for instance, what could
happen if the current 'softwood lumber' dispute between Canada and the USA
remained unresolved. As it may well be.
Suppose the now very small number of very large Canadian forest companies
that dominate 80% or more of that trade currently, woke up one morning and found
the USA 'lumber lobby' had managed to get an effective increase in the current
tariff. One arranged in a manner that thwarts their efforts to lower 'unit cost'
and beat the present duty. One that renders their current course of increased
concentration of ownership and facilities completely unprofitable. That the US
tariff did actually exclude all but the necessary 29% or so 'shortfall' the US
has each year in its own softwood lumber production, no matter how 'efficient'
the Canadian mills got, no matter even if the various provincial governments
'gave' them the Crown timber resource for free. Suppose concurrent with that the
efforts to find 'other markets' failed to bear fruit.
Suddenly there's a very interesting situation. Here we have on the one hand
the largest and best mills in the world, ones that have done everything in vogue
in current 'economic' thinking to survive and prosper, and none of it works
anymore. At some point, I would think, the fallout from a 'disaster' like that,
if it occured somewhat suddenly, (which it just could), might prompt some
thinking amongst the general public as to what really goes on. They might just
ask 'WHY', if our ancestors came to this country to ''live life more abundantly''
amongst "abundant" natural resources that enabled them to do just that, do we now
have to submit to paying 'world price' to access any of them? A 'world price'
set high enough to deny increasing numbers of us the very things our ancestors
came here for in the first place.
Joe
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You're subscribed to this list with the email keithwilde@sympatico.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
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Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Isn't the corruption of the political system that
you observe the direct result of the way political parties are financed?
Certainly that's my take on where Conservatism is taking Alberta.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In that regard, I think that Chretien, before he
left, made a rather smart and courageous move (and threw a curve at Paul Martin,
his successor) by prohibiting Corporations from contributing more than a very
limited sum to political parties. It could hurt the Liberal cause severely -
though one can always finance one's party by borrowing from a bank, and "he who
pays the piper calls the tune"!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley, 1970 10123 99St.,<BR>EDMONTON AB Canada T5J
3H1<BR>Phone (780)423-4081:Fax (780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:jmartinh@shaw.ca">jmartinh@shaw.ca</A>,<BR><A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A><BR><A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A><BR>e-mail:
<A href="mailto:martinh@edmc.net">martinh@edmc.net</A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=keithwilde@sympatico.ca href="mailto:keithwilde@sympatico.ca">Keith
Wilde</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:56
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Joe on
Wal-Mart, Discount and CIR</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A very interesting prospect, Joe.
Sufficiently so that I will camp on your bandwagon for a round or two.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Round one: Next door in the tar
sands. It is my understanding that the resource has been virtually if
not absolutely and irrevocably given away to the developing corporations (i.e.
the oil companies), on the understanding that the benefit to Alberta and to
Canada ("unemployed eastern bastards") is jobs. As the world price
of crude goes up, so does the attraction of extraction, and so do tensions
within Canada, as noted on news the past couple of days. Analysis of crude
prices in the New York Times over the past week has focused on a lengthy
analysis last Sunday on the Saudi Arabian resource (featuring a Saudi expert)
and concluding that expectations of increased flow from that source--long a
mainstay of optimistic U.S. energy forecasters, simply cannot and will not be
met. That, plus the failure of an Iraqi government to come together,
with the consequent likelihood that its oil resources will come
under control of Iranian Shiites, and the belligerence of the upstart Chavez
in Venezuela does seem to portend long term high and rising prices for
Canadian fossil fuel consumers. "Hey! Isn't it our oil?" "Sorry,
loser; get your ass back in gear and make those credit card
payments!" One of the hot items on the NYT this past week-end has been
an editorial by a staff journalist who has a vacation home in Quebec
where he hobnobs with the hoi poloi of corporate America and Canada. His
message: back off on the belligerence over NAFTA and soft wood;
What if the Canadians decide to hit us where it would really hurt and get anal
retentive about oil exports?" </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Is this quite plausible scenario likely
to wake up a lot of Canadians to consider the possibility that the
government is in fact our enemy, having gone over to the side of the real
power controllers? Might we dream of Harper and Layton exercising some
real leadership and vowing together to lead a dictatorship of
real democracy to its lobbyists, bureaucrats, central bank and financial
regulators? Well, maybe, but I doubt that the campaign could
get as far as an election before the remnants of the U.S. Army showed up
to protect the property of Americans and make Canada safe for freedom.
One of my American friends sent me an article today by Pat Buchanan calling
G.W. Bush a traitor to his country and oath of office for not having repelled
the invasion of Arizona and New Mexico by Mexicans and other Latinos. A
real threat, compared to the phony one against Saddam Hussein! As the
U.S. comes unraveled, we will become an increasingly tempting and easy mark
for its power brokers. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Round two: Katrina. Although it
is now being tut-tutted as an extreme case of short-term planning
solutions, New Orleans is not unique among North American or world cities in
designing and implementing urban infrastructure to protect and enhance
the collective life of its citizens/residents. Cities are an
expression of community, of collective effort, and much of the infrastructure
is financed and paid for collectively. This fact of modern life is a
negation of the atomistic rationality of standard economics for the past
century, as sharply pointed out by the revolt of the young French graduate
students who founded Post-Autistic Economics (I believe I circulated refrence
to a handy account of this from May Harper's recently). There is growing
recognition among Heterodox Economists (another grouping) that there is more
to cultural heritage and productive capacity than individual actors.
Society is important. This is the primary theme of the Society for
Advancement of Socio-Economics, for example, spurred into being by Amitai
Etzioni, among others, who also took a focus on Communitarian Studies (I don't
recall the formal title of this grouping). Honorary members of the SASE
board of directors include venerables like J.K. Galbraith and other economists
whose names don't come back on the instant. Google it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My point here is that the cultural heritage
includes a growing component of what public finance and welfare economics
literature used to define as quintessential "public goods".
Privatization of public utilities has produced many disaster stories in
the past couple of decades, with taxpayers now forced to pick of the bill to
pay the dismissal costs of scoundrels, when formerly all they had to do was
pay modest utility bills. Furthermore, municipalities are forced to go
to their ratepayers for financing of desperately needed infrastructure
investment, in sewers, water supply, medical services, etc. and are resentful
of senior governments that sit on the national revenues and
creditability. I met around a boardroom lunchtable recently with some
local politicians and their small business colleagues and noted with interest
their willingness to listen to accounts of how Bank of Canada used to control
credit (monetary) issue and keep production going without inflation--during
wartime. Then after war, it is payback time. An interesting
connection, war and debt finance. Why does the Government now do its
bank borrowing from private banks rather than the BoC? (Obviously to help
CIBC pay back the hit on its latest mega-folly, Enron.) It collects
taxes to pay interest to banks instead of paying it to the BoC--of which it is
sole shareholder. Shouldn't municipal politicians and citizens be
getting a break from government's constitutional ability to borrow at lower
rates of interest than banks charge, by having loans arranged from the central
bank. That was the rationale of the activists who arranged the
luncheon, and their modest audience were receptive to exploring
further. Might this be a source of further pain that will tip
citizens out of their apathetic ignorance? Even in Alberta, where
medical and health care services are being disrupted and curtailed in the name
of private
"efficiency" ??????????????????????????????????????????????? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca href="mailto:thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca">Joe
Thomson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:18
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Wal-Mart,
Retail Discount and CIR</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#008000 size=2><STRONG>Hi
Keith,</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#008000
size=2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#008000 size=2><STRONG>Douglas discusses Japan
in the PDF file Wally provided, "The Douglas System of Social Credit", which
was a transcript of his presentation to the Alberta Agricultural Commitee in
1934. I seem to recall seeing some other, similar, comments from him
elsewhere, though I'd have to go back and look just where now.
</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#008000
size=2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#008000 size=2><STRONG>In answer to your
question:- </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> </DIV>
<DIV>"It does bring up the further question of whether it is conceivable to
implement the Douglas solution in one country, even if its citizens did get
themselves roused sufficiently to take over their government. What
then is a positive strategy for advancing the agenda--aside from the
educational program advocated by Vic Bridger, as we have discussed?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#008000>I would say that would very much depend on
the situation that 'prompts' such an attempt. There are a lot of
possibilities. Imagine, for instance, what could happen if the current
'softwood lumber' dispute between Canada and the USA remained
unresolved. As it may well be. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#008000>Suppose the now very small number of very
large Canadian forest companies that dominate 80% or more of that trade
currently, woke up one morning and found the USA 'lumber lobby' had
managed to get an <EM>effective</EM> increase in the current tariff.
One arranged in a manner that thwarts their efforts to lower 'unit
cost' and beat the present duty. One that renders
their current course of increased concentration of ownership and
facilities completely unprofitable. That the US tariff<EM>
did</EM> actually exclude all but the necessary 29% or so 'shortfall' the US
has each year in its own softwood lumber production, no matter how
'efficient' the Canadian mills got, no matter even if the various
provincial governments 'gave' them the Crown timber resource for
free. Suppose concurrent with that the efforts to find 'other
markets' failed to bear fruit. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#008000>Suddenly there's a very interesting
situation. Here we have on the one hand the largest and best mills in
the world, ones that have done everything in vogue in
current 'economic' thinking to survive and prosper, and none of it
works anymore. At some point, I would think, the fallout from a
'disaster' like that, if it occured somewhat suddenly, (which it just
could), might prompt some thinking amongst the general public as to what
really goes on. They might just ask 'WHY', if our ancestors came to
this country to ''live life more abundantly'' amongst
"abundant" natural resources that enabled them to do just that, do we
now have to submit to paying 'world price' to access any of
them? A 'world price' set high enough to deny increasing
numbers of us the very things our ancestors came here for in the
first place. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#008000>Joe</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV></FONT>
<P><PRE>---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email keithwilde@sympatico.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
<P></P></PRE>
<P></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><PRE>---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
<P></P></PRE>
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