| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Martin on Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR | | Date: | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 13:22:05 (-0700) | | From: | Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu @....ca>
|
| In reply to: | Message 2652 (written by Kenneth Palmerton) |
Hi Ken,
Only got a few minutes right now, so I'll have to be brief. What you call
"LIFT' sounds to me like "ASEP", a BC acronym for the "Assistance to Small
Enterprise Program." Which was a product of the latter-day, so-called
'Social Credit PARTY' government of Premier Bill Bennett. Not to be
confused with his father, who was long time BC 'Social Credit' LEAGUE
Premier WAC Bennett, and would never countenance anything like that.
. The "League'' group maintained some diminishing semblence to the
philosophy of 'social credit' . To the former, however, 'Social Credit' was
just the most marketable label-of-convenience for a group of used car
salesmen and other assorted right-wing 'get-rich-quickers' to coalesce and
get elected under, after three intervening years of disastrous ham-handed
'socialism' under the NDP.
Ironically, there was one thing that the SC PARTY bunch did that could've
been a pre-cursor to having true 'Social Credit' in BC, if it had been done
properly. Which it wasn't. That was the distribution to all Britsh
Coilumbians of BCRIC shares ~ but more on that some other time.
TheASEP program offered 'forgiveable loans' to a maximum of $36,000 (still
a considerable sum in the late 1970's ~ it would've bought six or seven
Chevrolet light delivery trucks then. It wouldn't buy more than one now.)
It was tied to the creation of new jobs, and maintenance of same, over a
two-year period. If the participating business did as contracted and
maintained those jobs that long , the loan was 'written-off'. Half the
first year, and the remaining half the next. If not, it was repayable. The
'loan' amount, for income tax purposes, when written-off by ASEP, was
considered as 'income' to the firm, and taxed. That was just ONE of many
drawbacks. There were many, many more.
If I had the time I could write reams about the whole 'phonieness' of this
program. It was an absolute disgrace to ever promote anything like that
under the auspices of being 'Social Credit'. I could write from 'first-hand
experience', since my firm was a recipient of one of these 'loans'. If
there was ever a case to be made for 'government' minding its own business,
and letting 'private-enterprise' mind its, it could be made from ASEP.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 6:50 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Martin on Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR
> In-Reply-To: <003c01c5adde$d4698fc0$1902a8c0@keithb9abaaf21>
> Was any of this like the British Columbia proposals of the 1970s ?
>
> LIFT (Low Interest Funding Today). A scheme that offered "Forgivable"
> loans :-)
>
> Never was able to get the full story at the time, but would love to know
> more.
>
> Ken.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
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> From: "Keith Wilde" <keithwilde@sympatico.ca>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
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> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Martin on Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR
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> I am ignorant on the history of the Treasury Branches' impact on =
> provision of more abundant credit. Did it operate somewhat like the =
> federal Industrial Development Bank of our own times--providing loans =
> for real investment in contrast to private banks' emphasis on lending =
> only with the backing of existing assets? The only thing I knew about =
> TB as a youth was that a cheque drawn on a Treasury Branch account was =
> the way you identified neighbors who were soft on Social Credit. Is =
> that because they were progressive farmers who knew something better =
> about getting a loan to buy a new tractor?
>
> And I am rusty on the German miracle. Did they simply issue a new =
> "brand" of fiat money (like deGaulle's New Francs or the Euro) and then =
> withdraw the old currency from circulation? What do you mean by it =
> "depreciating out of existence". Was it actively withdraw as it became =
> physically deteriorated and then destroyed, as we used to do with worn =
> out currency in an incinerator in the basement at Bank of Canada?
>
> When you say that "conventional banking has built on that German =
> foundation", I am left in the dark. Any intepretations I can think of =
> as questions for clarification sound too implausible to even proffer. =
> It does seem that your suggestion for reform has an affinity, however, =
> with the comments I made to Joe under "Round two: Katrina". I will be =
> interested to know if that is the case.=20
>
> Your mention of Guernsey credit reminds me that Maurice Colbourne's =
> Economic Nationalism invokes it in support of Douglas' New Economics. =
> Since the main references Colbourne cites for further reading are =
> Douglas' "Social Credit" and Hattersley's "This Age of Plenty", the =
> 'legend' gets pushed back in time to a modest degree. Colbourne adds =
> that Hattersley provides abundant references from many and varied =
> sources to support his argument. Is that a place to look for Guernsey =
> 'legend' antecedents?=20
>
> Keith Wilde
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Martin Hattersley=20
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR
>
>
> It seems to me that, without necessarily implementing the whole =
> Douglas system (dividends, Just Price, etc.), great progress could be =
> made simply by restoring to government the control of credit - as was =
> done in a partial way by the development of Alberta's Treasury branches, =
> and the sort of public issue of credit that was the key to revival in =
> Guernsey, as well as in countries like Belgium and West Germany after =
> World War II - an issue to everyone of state created "fiat" money, and =
> the old money depreciated out of existence.
>
> Of course, conventional banking has built on that German foundation, =
> so we're back where we were before - but Germany's "economic miracle" =
> after World War II was an object lesson on what a reformed money system =
> could achieve. If we're looking at a policy to sell to the public, =
> something as simple as this, without all the finer points of A+B, is =
> likely the way to go.
>
> Martin Hattersley
> 1970-10123-99 St.,=20
> EDMONTON AB CANADA
> e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Keith Wilde=20
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 5:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR
>
>
> (Joe comments) Perhaps we should re-visit some of what Douglas =
> wrote about Japan in the 1930's, and the way it used 'national credit' =
> to 'subsidize' exports, and build up the ''nation'' on its way to the =
> other kind of 'war'. The opposite approach to the 'Social Credit' idea, =
> as he noted, but it certainly showed what is possible in regards to some =
> of what CAN be done with 'credit'. =20
>
> As an immediate solution to 'our' problem, before what's left of our =
> industrial base disappears, I think Bill Ryan is right. There has to be =
> 'protectionism', though I think with China today, as with Japan then, =
> there are considerable 'military' risks involved in invoking it. It's =
> probably better to take those risks sooner, rather than later. Before =
> it absolutely is too late. Though unless we press at the same time for =
> a 'financial system' both here, and in China, and elsewhere, that can =
> use 'national credit' for each country's individual CITIZEN'S real, =
> (and primary), advantage, (''We must build 'up' from the INDIVIDUAL, not =
> 'down' from the STATE."), we're going to still be headed for trouble in =
> my opinion.
>
> (To my question:) Am I right to infer that at least a part of =
> Douglas' reaction to Wal-Mart would be to close the borders against =
> imports from China...?
>
> That is what I suspected the answer to be, but I have only dim =
> recollections of the exchange that covered trade policy explicitly and =
> do not recall reading Douglas on Japan. =20
>
> It does bring up the further question of whether it is conceivable =
> to implement the Douglas solution in one country, even if its citizens =
> did get themselves roused sufficiently to take over their government. =
> What then is a positive strategy for advancing the agenda--aside from =
> the educational program advocated by Vic Bridger, as we have discussed?
>
> Keith
>
> Joe
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Joe Thomson=20
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 3:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR
>
>
> Hello Keith,
>
> I'll reply in 'green' below.
> (Keith rejoins:)
> Wal-Mart discounting does not have the monetary impact of the =
> Douglas discount, but it does apply the principle of continual =
> improvements to "efficiency" and consequently to labor displacement. As =
> I understand texts from the '30s, Douglas and his allies were mostly =
> focused on production as the place where this phenomenon occurred. They =
> were preoccupied with the abundance of production contrasted to the =
> failure of distribution, and they attributed the latter almost entirely =
> to the "toll-bridge" constraint imposed by the banking and financial =
> system, preventing goods from crossing the bridge from producers to =
> consumers. Since mid-centry, it seems that a great deal of =
> cost-reductions from technological development have occurred in =
> marketing and distribution. Does this development have any implications =
> for the way in which Douglas' solutions would be applied if citizens did =
> rouse themselves (against the power of corporate money to buy votes) to =
> demand action against the financial power in the 21st century?
>
> (Joe replies:-) Judging from the reactions of citizens here =
> when Wal-Mart came to town, about an equal number were totally enamoured =
> with the idea of getting 'lower prices', no matter what, as were those =
> who vehemently opposed Wal-Mart's presence, for whatever reasons, =
> real or imagined. And a larger, probably wiser, number here were =
> pretty well ambivalent about the whole issue. =20
>
> While those opposed made a lot of noise, the 'votes' that =
> Wal-Mart 'bought' here weren't those of the citizenry, but rather those =
> on the City Council. I would say the whole issue had been clearly =
> decided ''FOR" Wal-Mart on that Council even before any public hearings =
> were held. And despite all the 'gum-beating' of those against, and the =
> pretence their 'obedient servants' were listening, it was obviously a =
> done deal before any of the 'general public' ever got to say their =
> two-bits worth. =20
>
> An experienced mega-buck company offering millions in 'amenity =
> funds' to a cash conscious City Council anxious to show the voters it's =
> 'done something', without having to raise taxes to do it, can get a =
> piece of land it wants rezoned for a new Wal-Mart just like that. And =
> the store itself approved, even if old Sam Walton himself had horns, =
> forked tongue, and a tail, or come Hell or high water. The only =
> difficulty here seemed to be keeping the Mayor and all the Councillors =
> looking awake and un-yawning as the necessary public hearing 'window =
> dressing' dragged on.=20
>
> The land the Wal-Mart here sits on had been zoned 'light =
> industrial' back in the Bill Bennett era. When that so-called =
> latter-day 'Socred' Premier had been going around the Province preaching =
> how 'high-tech' manufacturing industry was the wave of the future, and =
> it wouldn't matter if the forest industry and other 'traditional' =
> industries continued to shed workers apace. And municipalities that =
> wanted to get on the band-wagon should zone some land appropriately for =
> the coming 'boom'. 'Tourism' and 'high-tech' would provide well-paying =
> replacement jobs galore. They didn't. It was all hype. =20
>
> Wal-Mart here had over 800 applications the first day it =
> announced it was hiring. For 125, part-time, slightly above =
> minimum-wage positions. 'Something' is better than 'nothing', I =
> suppose. And the computerized point-of-sale scanner accounting and =
> re-ordering system the casher gets to use is definitely 'high-tech', =
> even if it is assembled somewhere in the 'Third World'=20
>
> Well, we can't dump entirely on 'Wal-Mart'. A few years =
> earlier, another mega-buck big chain arrived here, Real Canadian =
> Super-Store. Followed by Canadian Tire. Both 'domesticly' domiciled =
> outfits. Not imported from south of the line. And they both plopped =
> their 'barns' and parking lots down on a piece of prime agricultural =
> land previously locked up in the 'Agricultural Land Reserve', (as are =
> still many properties in BC. Most which don't even have enough 'soil' =
> on them to grow a decent marijuana crop ~ about the only thing in =
> 'agriculture' that pays anymore! ) This piece had 'soil', and had been =
> farmed. Legitimately. It was the kind of property the ALR was =
> supposedly designed to protect. But the 'power of money' changed that =
> pretty quickly too.=20
>
> There's no denying Wal-Mart is good at what they do, (selling =
> stuff, I mean), and one would expect them to take full advantage of the =
> latest in modern technology in regards to 'merchandising' their stores. =
> And 'timing' the payments to their suppliers for that merchandise to =
> best advantage, (for Wal-Mart ! ), as well. Nothing like using your =
> supplier's 'credit' to the limit, interest-free, instead of 'borrowing' =
> your own the other way. =20
>
> Insofar as genuine 'efficiency' in the saving of labour is =
> concerned, I think Douglas would be impressed with what the 'computer =
> age' has brought. And if that were the only 'secret' to Wal-Mart's =
> success, he, and we, could find little fault with them. I think there's =
> just a little more to it than that, though.
>
> (Keith continues:-) A related question: =20
>
> (Joe replies:-) That's an interesting question, Keith. I hope =
> you get some better informed reaction to it than i can give you. We =
> think of the Chinese export-factory worker as a 'slave', yet compared to =
> the 80% or so of Chinese still on the land, I don't doubt for a moment =
> he thinks of himself as finally 'upwardly mobile'. Even if his actual =
> 'production', which could be of more 'real' benefit to him and his =
> countrymen if it were sent in that direction, will be largely witheld =
> from him.=20
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
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> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am ignorant on the history of the =
> Treasury=20
> Branches' impact on provision of more abundant credit. Did it =
> operate=20
> somewhat like the federal Industrial Development Bank of our own=20
> times--providing loans for real investment in contrast to private banks' =
>
> emphasis on lending only with the backing of existing =
> assets? The=20
> only thing I knew about TB as a youth was that a cheque drawn on a =
> Treasury=20
> Branch account was the way you identified neighbors who were soft on=20
> Social Credit. Is that because they were progressive farmers =
> who knew=20
> something better about getting a loan to buy a new tractor?</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And I am rusty on the German =
> miracle. Did=20
> they simply issue a new "brand" of fiat money (like deGaulle's New =
> Francs=20
> or the Euro) and then withdraw the old currency from =
> circulation? =20
> What do you mean by it "depreciating out of existence". Was it =
> actively=20
> withdraw as it became physically deteriorated</FONT> <FONT =
> face=3DArial=20
> size=3D2>and then destroyed, as we used to do with worn out currency in =
> an=20
> incinerator in the basement at Bank of Canada?</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>When you say that "conventional banking =
> has built=20
> on that German foundation", I am left in the dark. =
> Any intepretations=20
> I can think of as questions for clarification sound too implausible to =
> even=20
> proffer. It does seem that your suggestion for reform has an =
> affinity,=20
> however, with the comments I made to Joe under "Round two:=20
> Katrina". I will be interested to know if that is the=20
> case. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Your mention of Guernsey credit reminds =
> me that=20
> Maurice Colbourne's Economic Nationalism invokes it in support of =
> Douglas' New=20
> Economics. Since the main references Colbourne cites for further =
> reading=20
> are Douglas' "Social Credit" and Hattersley's "This Age of Plenty", the =
> 'legend'=20
> gets pushed back in time to a modest degree. Colbourne adds that=20
> Hattersley provides abundant references from many and varied sources to =
> support=20
> his argument. Is that a place to look for Guernsey=20
> 'legend' antecedents? </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Keith Wilde</FONT></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> <DIV=20
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
> black"><B>From:</B>=20
> <A title=3Dhattersleyjm@interbaun.com=20
> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> =
> </DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
> </DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 30, 2005 =
> 12:27=20
> PM</DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
> Wal-Mart,=20
> Retail Discount and CIR</DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
> size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
> face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
> face=3DArial=20
> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems to me that, without necessarily =
> implementing the=20
> whole Douglas system (dividends, Just Price, etc.), great progress =
> could be=20
> made simply by restoring to government the control of credit - as was =
> done in=20
> a partial way by the development of Alberta's Treasury branches, and =
> the sort=20
> of public issue of credit that was the key to revival in Guernsey, as =
> well as=20
> in countries like Belgium and West Germany after World War II - an =
> issue to=20
> everyone of state created "fiat" money, and the old money depreciated =
> out of=20
> existence.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Of course, conventional banking has built on that =
> German=20
> foundation, so we're back where we were before - but Germany's =
> "economic=20
> miracle" after World War II was an object lesson on what a reformed =
> money=20
> system could achieve. If we're looking at a policy to sell to the =
> public,=20
> something as simple as this, without all the finer points of A+B, is =
> likely=20
> the way to go.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., =
> <BR>EDMONTON AB=20
> CANADA<BR>e-mail: <A=20
> =
> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
> </FONT></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> <DIV=20
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
> black"><B>From:</B>=20
> <A title=3Dkeithwilde@sympatico.ca =
> href=3D"mailto:keithwilde@sympatico.ca">Keith=20
> Wilde</A> </DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
> =
> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
> </DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 30, =
> 2005 5:27=20
> AM</DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
> Wal-Mart,=20
> Retail Discount and CIR</DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
> size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000> (Joe comments) Perhaps we =
> should=20
> re-visit some of what Douglas wrote about Japan in the 1930's, and =
> the way=20
> it used 'national credit' to 'subsidize' exports, and build up the=20
> ''nation'' on its way to the other kind of 'war'. The =
> opposite=20
> approach to the 'Social Credit' idea, as he noted, but it certainly =
> showed=20
> what is possible in regards to some of what CAN be done with=20
> 'credit'. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>As an immediate solution to 'our' =
> problem,=20
> before what's left of our industrial base disappears, I think =
> Bill Ryan=20
> is right. There has to be 'protectionism', though I think with =
> China=20
> today, as with Japan then, there are considerable 'military' risks =
> involved=20
> in invoking it. It's probably better to take those risks=20
> sooner, rather than later. Before it absolutely is too=20
> late. Though unless we press at the same time for a =
> 'financial=20
> system' both here, and in China, and elsewhere, that can use =
> 'national=20
> credit' for each country's individual CITIZEN'S real, =
> (and=20
> primary), advantage, (''We must build 'up' from the INDIVIDUAL, not =
> 'down'=20
> from the STATE."), we're going to still be headed for trouble in my=20
> opinion.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
> <DIV>(To my question:) Am I right to infer that at least =
> a part=20
> of Douglas' reaction to Wal-Mart would be to close the borders =
> against=20
> imports from China...?</DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>That is what I suspected the answer to be, but I have only dim=20
> recollections of the exchange that covered trade policy =
> explicitly and=20
> do not recall reading Douglas on Japan. </DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>It does bring up the further question of whether it is =
> conceivable to=20
> implement the Douglas solution in one country, even if its citizens =
> did get=20
> themselves roused sufficiently to take over their government. =
> What=20
> then is a positive strategy for advancing the agenda--aside from the =
>
> educational program advocated by Vic Bridger, as we have =
> discussed?</DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>Keith</DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT =
> color=3D#008000>Joe</FONT></STRONG></DIV></FONT></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
> </DIV>
> <DIV=20
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
> black"><B>From:</B>=20
> <A title=3Dthomsonhiyu@shaw.ca =
> href=3D"mailto:thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca">Joe=20
> Thomson</A> </DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
> =
> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
> </DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 30, =
> 2005 3:08=20
> AM</DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
> Wal-Mart,=20
> Retail Discount and CIR</DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
> size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#008000><STRONG>Hello=20
> Keith,</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial =
> color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#008000>I'll reply in =
> 'green'=20
> below.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
> size=3D3>(Keith=20
> rejoins:)</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV>
> <DIV>Wal-Mart discounting does not have the monetary impact of =
> the=20
> Douglas discount, but it does apply the principle of continual=20
> improvements to "efficiency" and consequently to labor =
> displacement. As=20
> I understand texts from the '30s, Douglas and his allies were =
> mostly=20
> focused on production as the place where this phenomenon =
> occurred. =20
> They were preoccupied with the abundance of production =
> contrasted to the=20
> failure of distribution, and they attributed the latter almost =
> entirely=20
> to the "toll-bridge" constraint imposed by the banking and =
> financial=20
> system, preventing goods from crossing the bridge from producers =
> to=20
> consumers. Since mid-centry, it seems that a great deal of =
>
> cost-reductions from technological development have occurred in=20
> marketing and distribution. Does this development have any =
>
> implications for the way in which Douglas' solutions would be =
> applied if=20
> citizens did rouse themselves (against the power of corporate =
> money to=20
> buy votes) to demand action against the financial power in the =
> 21st=20
> century?</DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>(Joe replies:-) Judging =
> from the=20
> reactions of citizens here when Wal-Mart came to =
> town, about an=20
> equal number were totally enamoured with the idea of =
> getting 'lower=20
> prices', no matter what, as were those who vehemently=20
> opposed Wal-Mart's presence, for whatever reasons, =
> real or=20
> imagined. And a larger, probably wiser, number =
> here=20
> were pretty well ambivalent about the whole =
> issue. =20
> </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>While those opposed made a =
> lot of=20
> noise, the 'votes' that Wal-Mart 'bought' here =
> weren't those=20
> of the citizenry, but rather those on the City Council. I =
> would=20
> say the whole issue had been clearly decided ''FOR" =
> Wal-Mart on=20
> that Council even before any public hearings were =
> held. And=20
> despite all the 'gum-beating' of those against, and the pretence =
> their=20
> 'obedient servants' were listening, it was obviously =
> a done=20
> deal before any of the 'general public' ever got to say =
> their=20
> two-bits worth. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>An experienced =
> mega-buck company=20
> offering millions in 'amenity funds' to a cash conscious City =
> Council=20
> anxious to show the voters it's 'done something', without having =
> to=20
> raise taxes to do it, can get a piece of land it wants rezoned =
> for a new=20
> Wal-Mart just like that. And the store itself approved, =
> even if=20
> old Sam Walton himself had horns, forked tongue, and a tail,=20
> or come Hell or high water. The only =
> difficulty here=20
> seemed to be keeping the Mayor and all the Councillors =
> looking=20
> awake and un-yawning as the necessary public hearing =
> 'window=20
> dressing' dragged on. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>The land the Wal-Mart =
> here sits on=20
> had been zoned 'light industrial' back in the Bill Bennett =
> era. =20
> When that so-called latter-day 'Socred' Premier had been going =
> around=20
> the Province preaching how 'high-tech' manufacturing industry =
> was the=20
> wave of the future, and it wouldn't matter if the forest =
> industry and=20
> other 'traditional' industries continued to shed workers apace.=20
> And municipalities that wanted to get on the band-wagon =
> should=20
> zone some land appropriately for the coming 'boom'. =
> 'Tourism' and=20
> 'high-tech' would provide well-paying replacement jobs =
> galore. =20
> They didn't. It was all hype. =
> </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>Wal-Mart here had over 800 =
> applications=20
> the first day it announced it was hiring. For 125, =
> part-time,=20
> slightly above minimum-wage positions. 'Something' =
> is better=20
> than 'nothing', I suppose. And the computerized=20
> point-of-sale scanner accounting and re-ordering system the =
> casher gets=20
> to use is definitely 'high-tech', even if it is assembled =
> somewhere in=20
> the 'Third World' </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>Well, we can't dump entirely =
> on=20
> 'Wal-Mart'. A few years earlier, another mega-buck big =
> chain=20
> arrived here, Real Canadian Super-Store. Followed by =
> Canadian=20
> Tire. Both 'domesticly' domiciled outfits. Not =
> imported from=20
> south of the line. And they both plopped =
> their 'barns' and=20
> parking lots down on a piece of prime agricultural land =
> previously=20
> locked up in the 'Agricultural Land Reserve', (as are still many =
>
> properties in BC. Most which don't even have enough =
> 'soil'=20
> on them to grow a decent marijuana crop ~ about the only thing =
> in=20
> 'agriculture' that pays anymore! ) This piece had 'soil', =
> and had=20
> been farmed. Legitimately. It was the kind of =
> property the=20
> ALR was supposedly designed to protect. But the 'power of =
> money'=20
> changed that pretty quickly too. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000> There's no denying =
> Wal-Mart is=20
> good at what they do, (selling stuff, I mean), and one would =
> expect them=20
> to take full advantage of the latest in modern technology in =
> regards to=20
> 'merchandising' their stores. And 'timing' the payments to =
> their=20
> suppliers for that merchandise to best advantage, (for Wal-Mart =
> ! ), as=20
> well. Nothing like using your supplier's 'credit' to the =
> limit,=20
> interest-free, instead of 'borrowing' your own the other=20
> way. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>Insofar as genuine =
> 'efficiency' in the=20
> saving of labour is concerned, I think Douglas would be =
> impressed with=20
> what the 'computer age' has brought. And if that were the =
> only=20
> 'secret' to Wal-Mart's success, he, and we, could find little =
> fault with=20
> them. I think there's just a little more to it than that,=20
> though.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV>(Keith continues:-) A related question: </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>(Joe replies:-) That's =
> an=20
> interesting question, Keith. I hope you get some better =
> informed=20
> reaction to it than i can give you. We think of the =
> Chinese=20
> export-factory worker as a 'slave', yet compared to the 80% or =
> so of=20
> Chinese still on the land, I don't doubt for a moment he thinks =
> of=20
> himself as finally 'upwardly mobile'. Even if his actual=20
> 'production', which could be of more 'real' benefit to him =
> and his=20
> countrymen if it were sent in that direction, will be largely =
> witheld=20
> from him. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
> 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT=20
> face=3DArial></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
> =
> <P><PRE>-----------------------------------------------------------------=
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