| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Martin on Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR | | Date: | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 22:59:57 (-0400) | | From: | Keith Wilde <keithwilde @.........ca>
|
| In reply to: | Message 2662 (written by Martin Hattersley) |
Thanks very much, Martin. This does provide a lot of the answers I was
looking for, including confirmation of my dim recollections of the Erhard
era.
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Hattersley" <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Martin on Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR
> Keith -
>
> Treasury Branches in the end operated surprisingly like conventional
> banks, but on a very low cash reserve, not being subject to Canada's Bank
> Act. The repayment of deposits was (and still is) backed by a Provincial
> Government guarantee.
>
> In an economy decimated by the Depression, and the closing of many rural
> banking services, Treasury Branches provided a source of loan credit
> independent of the banking system, and its profits, of course, went to the
> Provincial government.
>
> It wasn't "Social Credit" a la Douglas, but it worked, and by providing
> competition in the lending business, kept the banking system reasonably
> honest.
>
> Regarding Germany - two books I have enjoyed are Von Ropke's "Economics of
> the Free Society", published before World War II, and carrying some
> Douglas type overtones, and Ludwig Erhard's "Prosperity Through
> Competition". What I understand happened in post WWII Germany was that,
> after a period of stagnation with collapse of the currency and cigarettes
> being used as a monetary token, there was a recall of existing currency at
> a much depreciated rate, supplemented by a deal out to everyone - as might
> be done at the start of a game of Monopoly - of debt free new Deutchmarks.
> These would in due course pass into the banking system, and the normal
> process of bank expansion of credit would then provide capital to the
> economy, but it is interesting that at that time, increases or decreases
> in the bank's fractional reserve ratio were used as a means to control
> expansion of credit. The net result would seem to be a return to present
> day orthodoxy, with a money supply based on bank credit expanded from an
> initial "fiduciary issue" of paper money. However, I am not able to give
> you more detail than that - others on the list might be able to
> supplement.
>
> Martin Hattersley, 1970 10123 99St.,
> EDMONTON AB Canada T5J 3H1
> Phone (780)423-4081:Fax (780)425-5247
> e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca,
> hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> e-mail: martinh@edmc.net
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 7:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Martin on Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR
>
>
>> In-Reply-To: <003c01c5adde$d4698fc0$1902a8c0@keithb9abaaf21>
>> Was any of this like the British Columbia proposals of the 1970s ?
>>
>> LIFT (Low Interest Funding Today). A scheme that offered "Forgivable"
>> loans :-)
>>
>> Never was able to get the full story at the time, but would love to know
>> more.
>>
>> Ken.
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>>
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>> -0400Message-ID: <003c01c5adde$d4698fc0$1902a8c0@keithb9abaaf21>
>> From: "Keith Wilde" <keithwilde@sympatico.ca>
>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
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>> <001801c5ad55$da119d20$1902a8c0@keithb9abaaf21>
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>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Martin on Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR
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>>
>> I am ignorant on the history of the Treasury Branches' impact on =
>> provision of more abundant credit. Did it operate somewhat like the =
>> federal Industrial Development Bank of our own times--providing loans =
>> for real investment in contrast to private banks' emphasis on lending =
>> only with the backing of existing assets? The only thing I knew about =
>> TB as a youth was that a cheque drawn on a Treasury Branch account was =
>> the way you identified neighbors who were soft on Social Credit. Is =
>> that because they were progressive farmers who knew something better =
>> about getting a loan to buy a new tractor?
>>
>> And I am rusty on the German miracle. Did they simply issue a new =
>> "brand" of fiat money (like deGaulle's New Francs or the Euro) and then =
>> withdraw the old currency from circulation? What do you mean by it =
>> "depreciating out of existence". Was it actively withdraw as it became =
>> physically deteriorated and then destroyed, as we used to do with worn =
>> out currency in an incinerator in the basement at Bank of Canada?
>>
>> When you say that "conventional banking has built on that German =
>> foundation", I am left in the dark. Any intepretations I can think of =
>> as questions for clarification sound too implausible to even proffer. =
>> It does seem that your suggestion for reform has an affinity, however, =
>> with the comments I made to Joe under "Round two: Katrina". I will be =
>> interested to know if that is the case.=20
>>
>> Your mention of Guernsey credit reminds me that Maurice Colbourne's =
>> Economic Nationalism invokes it in support of Douglas' New Economics. =
>> Since the main references Colbourne cites for further reading are =
>> Douglas' "Social Credit" and Hattersley's "This Age of Plenty", the =
>> 'legend' gets pushed back in time to a modest degree. Colbourne adds =
>> that Hattersley provides abundant references from many and varied =
>> sources to support his argument. Is that a place to look for Guernsey =
>> 'legend' antecedents?=20
>>
>> Keith Wilde
>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> From: Martin Hattersley=20
>> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that, without necessarily implementing the whole =
>> Douglas system (dividends, Just Price, etc.), great progress could be =
>> made simply by restoring to government the control of credit - as was =
>> done in a partial way by the development of Alberta's Treasury branches,
>> =
>> and the sort of public issue of credit that was the key to revival in =
>> Guernsey, as well as in countries like Belgium and West Germany after =
>> World War II - an issue to everyone of state created "fiat" money, and =
>> the old money depreciated out of existence.
>>
>> Of course, conventional banking has built on that German foundation, =
>> so we're back where we were before - but Germany's "economic miracle" =
>> after World War II was an object lesson on what a reformed money system =
>> could achieve. If we're looking at a policy to sell to the public, =
>> something as simple as this, without all the finer points of A+B, is =
>> likely the way to go.
>>
>> Martin Hattersley
>> 1970-10123-99 St.,=20
>> EDMONTON AB CANADA
>> e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> From: Keith Wilde=20
>> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 5:27 AM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR
>>
>>
>> (Joe comments) Perhaps we should re-visit some of what Douglas =
>> wrote about Japan in the 1930's, and the way it used 'national credit' =
>> to 'subsidize' exports, and build up the ''nation'' on its way to the =
>> other kind of 'war'. The opposite approach to the 'Social Credit' idea,
>> =
>> as he noted, but it certainly showed what is possible in regards to some
>> =
>> of what CAN be done with 'credit'. =20
>>
>> As an immediate solution to 'our' problem, before what's left of our =
>> industrial base disappears, I think Bill Ryan is right. There has to be
>> =
>> 'protectionism', though I think with China today, as with Japan then, =
>> there are considerable 'military' risks involved in invoking it. It's =
>> probably better to take those risks sooner, rather than later. Before =
>> it absolutely is too late. Though unless we press at the same time for =
>> a 'financial system' both here, and in China, and elsewhere, that can =
>> use 'national credit' for each country's individual CITIZEN'S real, =
>> (and primary), advantage, (''We must build 'up' from the INDIVIDUAL, not
>> =
>> 'down' from the STATE."), we're going to still be headed for trouble in =
>> my opinion.
>>
>> (To my question:) Am I right to infer that at least a part of =
>> Douglas' reaction to Wal-Mart would be to close the borders against =
>> imports from China...?
>>
>> That is what I suspected the answer to be, but I have only dim =
>> recollections of the exchange that covered trade policy explicitly and =
>> do not recall reading Douglas on Japan. =20
>>
>> It does bring up the further question of whether it is conceivable =
>> to implement the Douglas solution in one country, even if its citizens =
>> did get themselves roused sufficiently to take over their government. =
>> What then is a positive strategy for advancing the agenda--aside from =
>> the educational program advocated by Vic Bridger, as we have discussed?
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> Joe
>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> From: Joe Thomson=20
>> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 3:08 AM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Wal-Mart, Retail Discount and CIR
>>
>>
>> Hello Keith,
>>
>> I'll reply in 'green' below.
>> (Keith rejoins:)
>> Wal-Mart discounting does not have the monetary impact of the =
>> Douglas discount, but it does apply the principle of continual =
>> improvements to "efficiency" and consequently to labor displacement. As =
>> I understand texts from the '30s, Douglas and his allies were mostly =
>> focused on production as the place where this phenomenon occurred. They
>> =
>> were preoccupied with the abundance of production contrasted to the =
>> failure of distribution, and they attributed the latter almost entirely =
>> to the "toll-bridge" constraint imposed by the banking and financial =
>> system, preventing goods from crossing the bridge from producers to =
>> consumers. Since mid-centry, it seems that a great deal of =
>> cost-reductions from technological development have occurred in =
>> marketing and distribution. Does this development have any implications
>> =
>> for the way in which Douglas' solutions would be applied if citizens did
>> =
>> rouse themselves (against the power of corporate money to buy votes) to =
>> demand action against the financial power in the 21st century?
>>
>> (Joe replies:-) Judging from the reactions of citizens here =
>> when Wal-Mart came to town, about an equal number were totally enamoured
>> =
>> with the idea of getting 'lower prices', no matter what, as were those =
>> who vehemently opposed Wal-Mart's presence, for whatever reasons, =
>> real or imagined. And a larger, probably wiser, number here were =
>> pretty well ambivalent about the whole issue. =20
>>
>> While those opposed made a lot of noise, the 'votes' that =
>> Wal-Mart 'bought' here weren't those of the citizenry, but rather those =
>> on the City Council. I would say the whole issue had been clearly =
>> decided ''FOR" Wal-Mart on that Council even before any public hearings =
>> were held. And despite all the 'gum-beating' of those against, and the =
>> pretence their 'obedient servants' were listening, it was obviously a =
>> done deal before any of the 'general public' ever got to say their =
>> two-bits worth. =20
>>
>> An experienced mega-buck company offering millions in 'amenity =
>> funds' to a cash conscious City Council anxious to show the voters it's =
>> 'done something', without having to raise taxes to do it, can get a =
>> piece of land it wants rezoned for a new Wal-Mart just like that. And =
>> the store itself approved, even if old Sam Walton himself had horns, =
>> forked tongue, and a tail, or come Hell or high water. The only =
>> difficulty here seemed to be keeping the Mayor and all the Councillors =
>> looking awake and un-yawning as the necessary public hearing 'window =
>> dressing' dragged on.=20
>>
>> The land the Wal-Mart here sits on had been zoned 'light =
>> industrial' back in the Bill Bennett era. When that so-called =
>> latter-day 'Socred' Premier had been going around the Province preaching
>> =
>> how 'high-tech' manufacturing industry was the wave of the future, and =
>> it wouldn't matter if the forest industry and other 'traditional' =
>> industries continued to shed workers apace. And municipalities that =
>> wanted to get on the band-wagon should zone some land appropriately for =
>> the coming 'boom'. 'Tourism' and 'high-tech' would provide well-paying =
>> replacement jobs galore. They didn't. It was all hype. =20
>>
>> Wal-Mart here had over 800 applications the first day it =
>> announced it was hiring. For 125, part-time, slightly above =
>> minimum-wage positions. 'Something' is better than 'nothing', I =
>> suppose. And the computerized point-of-sale scanner accounting and =
>> re-ordering system the casher gets to use is definitely 'high-tech', =
>> even if it is assembled somewhere in the 'Third World'=20
>>
>> Well, we can't dump entirely on 'Wal-Mart'. A few years =
>> earlier, another mega-buck big chain arrived here, Real Canadian =
>> Super-Store. Followed by Canadian Tire. Both 'domesticly' domiciled =
>> outfits. Not imported from south of the line. And they both plopped =
>> their 'barns' and parking lots down on a piece of prime agricultural =
>> land previously locked up in the 'Agricultural Land Reserve', (as are =
>> still many properties in BC. Most which don't even have enough 'soil' =
>> on them to grow a decent marijuana crop ~ about the only thing in =
>> 'agriculture' that pays anymore! ) This piece had 'soil', and had been =
>> farmed. Legitimately. It was the kind of property the ALR was =
>> supposedly designed to protect. But the 'power of money' changed that =
>> pretty quickly too.=20
>>
>> There's no denying Wal-Mart is good at what they do, (selling =
>> stuff, I mean), and one would expect them to take full advantage of the =
>> latest in modern technology in regards to 'merchandising' their stores.
>> =
>> And 'timing' the payments to their suppliers for that merchandise to =
>> best advantage, (for Wal-Mart ! ), as well. Nothing like using your =
>> supplier's 'credit' to the limit, interest-free, instead of 'borrowing'
>> =
>> your own the other way. =20
>>
>> Insofar as genuine 'efficiency' in the saving of labour is =
>> concerned, I think Douglas would be impressed with what the 'computer =
>> age' has brought. And if that were the only 'secret' to Wal-Mart's =
>> success, he, and we, could find little fault with them. I think there's
>> =
>> just a little more to it than that, though.
>>
>> (Keith continues:-) A related question: =20
>>
>> (Joe replies:-) That's an interesting question, Keith. I hope =
>> you get some better informed reaction to it than i can give you. We =
>> think of the Chinese export-factory worker as a 'slave', yet compared to
>> =
>> the 80% or so of Chinese still on the land, I don't doubt for a moment =
>> he thinks of himself as finally 'upwardly mobile'. Even if his actual =
>> 'production', which could be of more 'real' benefit to him and his =
>> countrymen if it were sent in that direction, will be largely witheld =
>> from him.=20
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email keithwilde@sympatico.ca
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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>> You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
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>>
>>
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>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
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>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email kenpalmerton@cix.co.uk
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
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>> ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C5ADBD.4D429300
>> Content-Type: text/html;
>> charset="iso-8859-1"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>> <HTML><HEAD>
>> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am ignorant on the history of the =
>> Treasury=20
>> Branches' impact on provision of more abundant credit. Did it =
>> operate=20
>> somewhat like the federal Industrial Development Bank of our own=20
>> times--providing loans for real investment in contrast to private banks'
>> =
>>
>> emphasis on lending only with the backing of existing =
>> assets? The=20
>> only thing I knew about TB as a youth was that a cheque drawn on a =
>> Treasury=20
>> Branch account was the way you identified neighbors who were soft on=20
>> Social Credit. Is that because they were progressive farmers =
>> who knew=20
>> something better about getting a loan to buy a new tractor?</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And I am rusty on the German =
>> miracle. Did=20
>> they simply issue a new "brand" of fiat money (like deGaulle's New =
>> Francs=20
>> or the Euro) and then withdraw the old currency from =
>> circulation? =20
>> What do you mean by it "depreciating out of existence". Was it =
>> actively=20
>> withdraw as it became physically deteriorated</FONT> <FONT =
>> face=3DArial=20
>> size=3D2>and then destroyed, as we used to do with worn out currency in =
>> an=20
>> incinerator in the basement at Bank of Canada?</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>When you say that "conventional banking
>> =
>> has built=20
>> on that German foundation", I am left in the dark. =
>> Any intepretations=20
>> I can think of as questions for clarification sound too implausible to =
>> even=20
>> proffer. It does seem that your suggestion for reform has an =
>> affinity,=20
>> however, with the comments I made to Joe under "Round two:=20
>> Katrina". I will be interested to know if that is the=20
>> case. </FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Your mention of Guernsey credit reminds
>> =
>> me that=20
>> Maurice Colbourne's Economic Nationalism invokes it in support of =
>> Douglas' New=20
>> Economics. Since the main references Colbourne cites for further =
>> reading=20
>> are Douglas' "Social Credit" and Hattersley's "This Age of Plenty", the =
>> 'legend'=20
>> gets pushed back in time to a modest degree. Colbourne adds that=20
>> Hattersley provides abundant references from many and varied sources to =
>> support=20
>> his argument. Is that a place to look for Guernsey=20
>> 'legend' antecedents? </FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Keith Wilde</FONT></DIV>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
>> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
>> <DIV=20
>> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> <A title=3Dhattersleyjm@interbaun.com=20
>> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> =
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
>> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 30, 2005 =
>> 12:27=20
>> PM</DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
>> Wal-Mart,=20
>> Retail Discount and CIR</DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
>> size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
>> face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
>> face=3DArial=20
>> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems to me that, without necessarily =
>> implementing the=20
>> whole Douglas system (dividends, Just Price, etc.), great progress =
>> could be=20
>> made simply by restoring to government the control of credit - as was =
>> done in=20
>> a partial way by the development of Alberta's Treasury branches, and =
>> the sort=20
>> of public issue of credit that was the key to revival in Guernsey, as =
>> well as=20
>> in countries like Belgium and West Germany after World War II - an =
>> issue to=20
>> everyone of state created "fiat" money, and the old money depreciated =
>> out of=20
>> existence.</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Of course, conventional banking has built on that =
>> German=20
>> foundation, so we're back where we were before - but Germany's =
>> "economic=20
>> miracle" after World War II was an object lesson on what a reformed =
>> money=20
>> system could achieve. If we're looking at a policy to sell to the =
>> public,=20
>> something as simple as this, without all the finer points of A+B, is =
>> likely=20
>> the way to go.</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., =
>> <BR>EDMONTON AB=20
>> CANADA<BR>e-mail: <A=20
>> =
>> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
>> </FONT></DIV>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
>> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
>> <DIV=20
>> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> <A title=3Dkeithwilde@sympatico.ca =
>> href=3D"mailto:keithwilde@sympatico.ca">Keith=20
>> Wilde</A> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
>> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> =
>> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 30, =
>> 2005 5:27=20
>> AM</DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
>> Wal-Mart,=20
>> Retail Discount and CIR</DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000> (Joe comments) Perhaps we =
>> should=20
>> re-visit some of what Douglas wrote about Japan in the 1930's, and =
>> the way=20
>> it used 'national credit' to 'subsidize' exports, and build up the=20
>> ''nation'' on its way to the other kind of 'war'. The =
>> opposite=20
>> approach to the 'Social Credit' idea, as he noted, but it certainly =
>> showed=20
>> what is possible in regards to some of what CAN be done with=20
>> 'credit'. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>As an immediate solution to 'our' =
>> problem,=20
>> before what's left of our industrial base disappears, I think =
>> Bill Ryan=20
>> is right. There has to be 'protectionism', though I think with =
>> China=20
>> today, as with Japan then, there are considerable 'military' risks =
>> involved=20
>> in invoking it. It's probably better to take those risks=20
>> sooner, rather than later. Before it absolutely is too=20
>> late. Though unless we press at the same time for a =
>> 'financial=20
>> system' both here, and in China, and elsewhere, that can use =
>> 'national=20
>> credit' for each country's individual CITIZEN'S real, =
>> (and=20
>> primary), advantage, (''We must build 'up' from the INDIVIDUAL, not =
>> 'down'=20
>> from the STATE."), we're going to still be headed for trouble in my=20
>> opinion.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
>> <DIV>(To my question:) Am I right to infer that at least =
>> a part=20
>> of Douglas' reaction to Wal-Mart would be to close the borders =
>> against=20
>> imports from China...?</DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV>That is what I suspected the answer to be, but I have only dim=20
>> recollections of the exchange that covered trade policy =
>> explicitly and=20
>> do not recall reading Douglas on Japan. </DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV>It does bring up the further question of whether it is =
>> conceivable to=20
>> implement the Douglas solution in one country, even if its citizens =
>> did get=20
>> themselves roused sufficiently to take over their government. =
>> What=20
>> then is a positive strategy for advancing the agenda--aside from the =
>>
>> educational program advocated by Vic Bridger, as we have =
>> discussed?</DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV>Keith</DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT =
>> color=3D#008000>Joe</FONT></STRONG></DIV></FONT></DIV>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
>> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV=20
>> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> <A title=3Dthomsonhiyu@shaw.ca =
>> href=3D"mailto:thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca">Joe=20
>> Thomson</A> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
>> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> =
>> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 30, =
>> 2005 3:08=20
>> AM</DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
>> Wal-Mart,=20
>> Retail Discount and CIR</DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#008000><STRONG>Hello=20
>> Keith,</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial =
>> color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#008000>I'll reply in =
>> 'green'=20
>> below.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
>> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
>> size=3D3>(Keith=20
>> rejoins:)</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV>
>> <DIV>Wal-Mart discounting does not have the monetary impact of =
>> the=20
>> Douglas discount, but it does apply the principle of continual=20
>> improvements to "efficiency" and consequently to labor =
>> displacement. As=20
>> I understand texts from the '30s, Douglas and his allies were =
>> mostly=20
>> focused on production as the place where this phenomenon =
>> occurred. =20
>> They were preoccupied with the abundance of production =
>> contrasted to the=20
>> failure of distribution, and they attributed the latter almost =
>> entirely=20
>> to the "toll-bridge" constraint imposed by the banking and =
>> financial=20
>> system, preventing goods from crossing the bridge from producers =
>> to=20
>> consumers. Since mid-centry, it seems that a great deal of =
>>
>> cost-reductions from technological development have occurred in=20
>> marketing and distribution. Does this development have any =
>>
>> implications for the way in which Douglas' solutions would be =
>> applied if=20
>> citizens did rouse themselves (against the power of corporate =
>> money to=20
>> buy votes) to demand action against the financial power in the =
>> 21st=20
>> century?</DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>(Joe replies:-) Judging =
>> from the=20
>> reactions of citizens here when Wal-Mart came to =
>> town, about an=20
>> equal number were totally enamoured with the idea of =
>> getting 'lower=20
>> prices', no matter what, as were those who vehemently=20
>> opposed Wal-Mart's presence, for whatever reasons, =
>> real or=20
>> imagined. And a larger, probably wiser, number =
>> here=20
>> were pretty well ambivalent about the whole =
>> issue. =20
>> </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>While those opposed made a =
>> lot of=20
>> noise, the 'votes' that Wal-Mart 'bought' here =
>> weren't those=20
>> of the citizenry, but rather those on the City Council. I =
>> would=20
>> say the whole issue had been clearly decided ''FOR" =
>> Wal-Mart on=20
>> that Council even before any public hearings were =
>> held. And=20
>> despite all the 'gum-beating' of those against, and the pretence =
>> their=20
>> 'obedient servants' were listening, it was obviously =
>> a done=20
>> deal before any of the 'general public' ever got to say =
>> their=20
>> two-bits worth. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>An experienced =
>> mega-buck company=20
>> offering millions in 'amenity funds' to a cash conscious City =
>> Council=20
>> anxious to show the voters it's 'done something', without having =
>> to=20
>> raise taxes to do it, can get a piece of land it wants rezoned =
>> for a new=20
>> Wal-Mart just like that. And the store itself approved, =
>> even if=20
>> old Sam Walton himself had horns, forked tongue, and a tail,=20
>> or come Hell or high water. The only =
>> difficulty here=20
>> seemed to be keeping the Mayor and all the Councillors =
>> looking=20
>> awake and un-yawning as the necessary public hearing =
>> 'window=20
>> dressing' dragged on. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>The land the Wal-Mart =
>> here sits on=20
>> had been zoned 'light industrial' back in the Bill Bennett =
>> era. =20
>> When that so-called latter-day 'Socred' Premier had been going =
>> around=20
>> the Province preaching how 'high-tech' manufacturing industry =
>> was the=20
>> wave of the future, and it wouldn't matter if the forest =
>> industry and=20
>> other 'traditional' industries continued to shed workers apace.=20
>> And municipalities that wanted to get on the band-wagon =
>> should=20
>> zone some land appropriately for the coming 'boom'. =
>> 'Tourism' and=20
>> 'high-tech' would provide well-paying replacement jobs =
>> galore. =20
>> They didn't. It was all hype. =
>> </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>Wal-Mart here had over 800 =
>> applications=20
>> the first day it announced it was hiring. For 125, =
>> part-time,=20
>> slightly above minimum-wage positions. 'Something' =
>> is better=20
>> than 'nothing', I suppose. And the computerized=20
>> point-of-sale scanner accounting and re-ordering system the =
>> casher gets=20
>> to use is definitely 'high-tech', even if it is assembled =
>> somewhere in=20
>> the 'Third World' </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>Well, we can't dump entirely =
>> on=20
>> 'Wal-Mart'. A few years earlier, another mega-buck big =
>> chain=20
>> arrived here, Real Canadian Super-Store. Followed by =
>> Canadian=20
>> Tire. Both 'domesticly' domiciled outfits. Not =
>> imported from=20
>> south of the line. And they both plopped =
>> their 'barns' and=20
>> parking lots down on a piece of prime agricultural land =
>> previously=20
>> locked up in the 'Agricultural Land Reserve', (as are still many =
>>
>> properties in BC. Most which don't even have enough =
>> 'soil'=20
>> on them to grow a decent marijuana crop ~ about the only thing =
>> in=20
>> 'agriculture' that pays anymore! ) This piece had 'soil', =
>> and had=20
>> been farmed. Legitimately. It was the kind of =
>> property the=20
>> ALR was supposedly designed to protect. But the 'power of =
>> money'=20
>> changed that pretty quickly too. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000> There's no denying =
>> Wal-Mart is=20
>> good at what they do, (selling stuff, I mean), and one would =
>> expect them=20
>> to take full advantage of the latest in modern technology in =
>> regards to=20
>> 'merchandising' their stores. And 'timing' the payments to =
>> their=20
>> suppliers for that merchandise to best advantage, (for Wal-Mart =
>> ! ), as=20
>> well. Nothing like using your supplier's 'credit' to the =
>> limit,=20
>> interest-free, instead of 'borrowing' your own the other=20
>> way. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>Insofar as genuine =
>> 'efficiency' in the=20
>> saving of labour is concerned, I think Douglas would be =
>> impressed with=20
>> what the 'computer age' has brought. And if that were the =
>> only=20
>> 'secret' to Wal-Mart's success, he, and we, could find little =
>> fault with=20
>> them. I think there's just a little more to it than that,=20
>> though.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV>(Keith continues:-) A related question: </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000>(Joe replies:-) That's =
>> an=20
>> interesting question, Keith. I hope you get some better =
>> informed=20
>> reaction to it than i can give you. We think of the =
>> Chinese=20
>> export-factory worker as a 'slave', yet compared to the 80% or =
>> so of=20
>> Chinese still on the land, I don't doubt for a moment he thinks =
>> of=20
>> himself as finally 'upwardly mobile'. Even if his actual=20
>> 'production', which could be of more 'real' benefit to him =
>> and his=20
>> countrymen if it were sent in that direction, will be largely =
>> witheld=20
>> from him. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
>> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
>> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
>> 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT=20
>> face=3DArial></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
>> =
>> <P><PRE>-----------------------------------------------------------------=
>> ----
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email keithwilde@sympatico.ca
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> <P></P></PRE>
>> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
>> =
>> <P><PRE>-----------------------------------------------------------------=
>> ----
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>> You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
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>> You're subscribed to this list with the email keithwilde@sympatico.ca
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