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| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Re: [ijccr] Re: Extrapolating A+B Part 1 | | Date: | Tuesday, September 27, 2005 22:24:39 (-0600) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <hattersleyjm @.........com>
|
The point is, that Douglas's A+B theorem deals with principal, not interest, and
shows a deficiency of purchasing power in the hands of consumers quite apart from
anything to do with the interest rate charged. If interest on capital were zero,
the deficiency of purchasing power would still exist wherever capital formation
is financed by new bank credit.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Gauvin
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: [ijccr] Re: Extrapolating A+B Part 1
Disagree all you want but the truth of the matter is that Banks do not spend
back the money they earn fast enough to compensate for the difference between the
demand created by principal + interest and the correspondng amount of money in
circulation. What is possible is that the payment schedules are calculated in
such a way that what is demanded is available given a constant growth in lending.
However this is truly unrealistic because in real life such would assume a
perfect concert in lending between all banks. In any event when the volume of
lending slows, the timing required in schedules are affected with a tendency to
manifest a deficit of money leading to a spike of debt failure.
To say that this has nothing to do with A + B when prices of goods have
everything to do with A + B and credit availability and minimum price thresholds
have everything to do with outstanding liability per economic cycle, is to have a
very narrow vision of reality and of Douglas.
Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Hattersley
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: [ijccr] Re: Extrapolating A+B Part 1
I rather disagree with you.
As Governor of the Bank of Canada Graham Towers once said "A Bank
manufactures credit, just as a steel plant manufactures steel".
The difference is that, because bank credit is in a sense "pretend" money,
it cannot be given away, only rented out, so that the Bank charges for printing
the tickets, and the community works to put on the performance.
The idea that the "gap" between purchasing power and prices has anything to
do with bank interest is a red herring that has confused explanations of Social
Credit endlessly, including on this list. There are moral reasons for saying
usury is wrong, but they have nothing to do with Douglas's A+B analysis, which
deals with principal, not interest.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Gauvin
To: ijccr@yahoogroups.com ; socialcredit@elistas.com ; William B. Ryan
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:12 AM
Subject: [socialcredit] Re: [ijccr] Re: Extrapolating A+B Part 1
But the banks do not spend back 100% of the money they take in,
therefore they do not compensate fully for the difference in the spread between
the +ve feedback on loans and the +ve feedback on deposits. the interest
function continues to make money scarcer than the aggregate demand in the form of
debt.
Banking taken as a business is unlike any other business and interest is
unlike any other "price" on any other good in society. Banking is power under
the guise of being a business and the banking sector shows this in being the only
sector that in the aggregate thrives both during economic crisis and economic
boom. It is the only oligarchy that doesn't require ownership of a unique
resource to establish itself, it is an oligarchy that establishes itself by
making a concept i.e. promissory notes a scarce commodity. It does so through
the combination of a unique recipe where layman ignorance, circumstance,
psychology, hope, desire, honour and fear are combined with social convention in
a dynamic that transcends the grasp of most of their fellow human beings.
The banking system is one that starts the cycle of damage while
monopolizing the means to address suffering. The banking system is scourge the
result of a tremendous error in history the error of applying exponential control
loops as a control of a complex system. It was initiated when the potential to
grow out and beyond the limits of its unjust demands existed and when the
consequences of exponential control loops where not known. We are now in an age
where systems theory has developed to the point that banking systems and their
faulty design represent elementary examples of folly.
What is not simple and herein lies the challenge, is the tremendous
psychological hold exponential debt money has once it has become as ingrained and
fundamental part of the workings of all aspects of society. Nonetheless, the
cause of the nightmare remains deceptively simple.
Interest is +ve feedback and it affects our behaviour in a destabilizing
way and if we do not free ourselves of it we are likely not going to survive.
Best,
Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: William B. Ryan
To: ijccr@yahoogroups.com ; socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 6:11 PM
Subject: [ijccr] Re: Extrapolating A+B Part 1
"But the interest paid by the banks is much less than
that exacted on loans..."
------------------------
--------------------------
It is less but there are also ordinary business
disbursements from banks for salaries, utilities, etc.
plus dividends to stockholders. Net interest received
is merely the gross profit from which expenses are
deducted.
-
"...and you have not accounted for the fact that
lending is the only source of new money to pay
yesterday's interest."
------------------------
--------------------------
It is also the "only source of new money" to pay
yesterday's phone bill, yesterday's utility bill, and
yesterday's wage bill.
The flux and reflux of loan principal is something
different than transfer payments from one party to
another in ordinary transactions; they are
conceptually in different categories.
The banker as businessman is in the second category
when he receives interest or makes payments from his
income; he keeps his books like any other businessman
and must cover his checks while operating his business
with the intention of making a profit, like any other
businessman.
The socialist is dead wrong but less wrong than the
tunnel-visioned monetary reformer; he sees the problem
in profit, the "evil" to be eradicated.
M -> C -> M + P; his version of the paradox is posed
thusly: If the capitalist spends M with the intention
of getting back M + P, from where does P arise?
His more generally stated but only slightly less
simplistic solution: Abolish profit.
The socialist expresses his utter contempt for the
monetary reformer who says abolish interest only, for
the socialist more correctly recognizes, if only
slightly, that interest is merely a subcategory of
profit.
In either case, the "solution" is the spanner in the
works of the market economy.
And with the spanner goes the hope for economic
democracy.
-
--- Marc Gauvin <gauvin@wanadoo.es> wrote:
William,
But the interest paid by the banks is much less than
that exacted on loans and you have not accounted for
the fact that lending is the only source of new money
to pay yesterday's interest.
Best,
Marc
__________________________________
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<DIV><FONT size=2>The point is, that Douglas's A+B theorem deals with principal,
not interest, and shows a deficiency of purchasing power in the hands of
consumers quite apart from anything to do with the interest rate charged. If
interest on capital were zero, the deficiency of purchasing power would still
exist wherever capital formation is financed by new bank credit.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB
CANADA<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=gauvin@wanadoo.es href="mailto:gauvin@wanadoo.es">Marc Gauvin</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 26, 2005 8:21
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Re: [ijccr]
Re: Extrapolating A+B Part 1</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Disagree all you want but the truth of the matter
is that Banks do not spend back the money they earn fast enough to compensate
for the difference between the demand created by principal + interest and the
correspondng amount of money in circulation. What is possible is that
the payment schedules are calculated in such a way that what is demanded is
available given a constant growth in lending. However this is truly
unrealistic because in real life such would assume a perfect concert in
lending between all banks. In any event when the volume of lending
slows, the timing required in schedules are affected with a tendency to
manifest a deficit of money leading to a spike of debt failure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To say that this has nothing to do with A + B
when prices of goods have everything to do with A + B and credit availability
and minimum price thresholds have everything to do with outstanding liability
per economic cycle, is to have a very narrow vision of reality and of
Douglas.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Marc</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:50
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Re: [ijccr]
Re: Extrapolating A+B Part 1</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I rather disagree with you. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>As Governor of the Bank of Canada Graham Towers once said
"A Bank manufactures credit, just as a steel plant manufactures
steel".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The difference is that, because bank credit is in a sense
"pretend" money, it cannot be given away, only rented out, so that the Bank
charges for printing the tickets, and the community works to put on the
performance.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The idea that the "gap" between purchasing power and
prices has anything to do with bank interest is a red herring that has
confused explanations of Social Credit endlessly, including on this list.
There are moral reasons for saying usury is wrong, but they have nothing to
do with Douglas's A+B analysis, which deals with principal, not
interest.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB
CANADA<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=gauvin@wanadoo.es href="mailto:gauvin@wanadoo.es">Marc Gauvin</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=ijccr@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:ijccr@yahoogroups.com">ijccr@yahoogroups.com</A> ; <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> ; <A
title=w_b_ryan@yahoo.com href="mailto:w_b_ryan@yahoo.com">William B.
Ryan</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 24, 2005
9:12 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [socialcredit] Re: [ijccr]
Re: Extrapolating A+B Part 1</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">But the banks do not spend back 100% of
the money they take in, therefore they do not compensate fully for the
difference in the spread between the +ve feedback on loans and the +ve
feedback on deposits. the interest function continues to make
money scarcer than the aggregate demand in the form of debt.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Banking taken as a business is unlike any
other business and interest is unlike any other "price" on any other
good in society. Banking is power under the guise of being
a business and the banking sector shows this in being the only
sector that in the aggregate thrives both during economic crisis and
economic boom. It is the only oligarchy that doesn't require
ownership of a unique resource to establish itself, it is an oligarchy
that establishes itself by making a concept i.e. promissory notes a
scarce commodity. It does so through the combination of a unique
recipe where layman ignorance, circumstance, psychology, hope,
desire, honour and fear are combined with social convention in a dynamic
that transcends the grasp of most of their fellow human
beings. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">The banking system is one that starts the
cycle of damage while monopolizing the means to address suffering.
The banking system is scourge the result of a tremendous error in
history the error of applying exponential control loops as a control of
a complex system. It was initiated when the potential to grow out
and beyond the limits of its unjust demands existed and when the
consequences of exponential control loops where not known. We are
now in an age where systems theory has developed to the point that
banking systems and their faulty design represent elementary examples of
folly. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">What is not simple and herein lies the
challenge, is the tremendous psychological hold exponential debt money
has once it has become as ingrained and fundamental part of the workings
of all aspects of society. Nonetheless, the cause of the nightmare
remains deceptively simple.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Interest is +ve feedback and it affects
our behaviour in a destabilizing way and if we do not free ourselves of
it we are likely not going to survive.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Best,</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Marc</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=w_b_ryan@yahoo.com href="mailto:w_b_ryan@yahoo.com">William B.
Ryan</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=ijccr@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:ijccr@yahoogroups.com">ijccr@yahoogroups.com</A> ; <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 19, 2005
6:11 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [ijccr] Re: Extrapolating
A+B Part 1</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><TT>"But the interest paid by the banks is much less
than<BR>that exacted on
loans..."<BR>------------------------<BR>--------------------------<BR><BR>It
is less but there are also ordinary business<BR>disbursements from banks
for salaries, utilities, etc.<BR>plus dividends to stockholders.
Net interest received<BR>is merely the gross profit from which expenses
are<BR>deducted.<BR>-<BR><BR>"...and you have not accounted for the fact
that<BR>lending is the only source of new money to pay<BR>yesterday's
interest."<BR>------------------------<BR>--------------------------<BR><BR>It
is also the "only source of new money" to pay<BR>yesterday's phone bill,
yesterday's utility bill, and<BR>yesterday's wage bill.<BR><BR>The flux
and reflux of loan principal is something<BR>different than transfer
payments from one party to<BR>another in ordinary transactions; they
are<BR>conceptually in different categories.<BR><BR>The banker as
businessman is in the second category<BR>when he receives interest or
makes payments from his<BR>income; he keeps his books like any other
businessman<BR>and must cover his checks while operating his
business<BR>with the intention of making a profit, like any
other<BR>businessman.<BR><BR>The socialist is dead wrong but less wrong
than the<BR>tunnel-visioned monetary reformer; he sees the problem<BR>in
profit, the "evil" to be eradicated.<BR><BR>M -> C -> M + P; his
version of the paradox is posed<BR>thusly: If the capitalist spends M
with the intention<BR>of getting back M + P, from where does P
arise?<BR><BR>His more generally stated but only slightly
less<BR>simplistic solution: Abolish profit.<BR><BR>The socialist
expresses his utter contempt for the<BR>monetary reformer who says
abolish interest only, for<BR>the socialist more correctly recognizes,
if only<BR>slightly, that interest is merely a subcategory
of<BR>profit.<BR><BR>In either case, the "solution" is the spanner in
the<BR>works of the market economy.<BR><BR>And with the spanner goes the
hope for economic<BR>democracy.<BR>-<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>---
Marc Gauvin <gauvin@wanadoo.es> wrote:<BR><BR>William,<BR><BR>But
the interest paid by the banks is much less than<BR>that exacted on
loans and you have not accounted for<BR>the fact that lending is the
only source of new money<BR>to pay yesterday's
interest.<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>Marc<BR><BR><BR>
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