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I disagree, irrespective of the A+B theorem which I
do not believe exludes interest in my opinion it is expressed the way it is to
avoid confrontation with the establisment but at the same time includes interest
as a cost. Otherwise it would be ridiculous to expressly ignore it as it is
a substantial liability.
Now the point is that the imbalances addressed by
the A+B theorem cannot exist if the the following principles are
observed:
1) Money be created by issuing new money in
the form of credit upon presenting new collateral i.e. as it is
today
2) That the entities responsble for keeping the
accounts of credit and debit operate interest free charging a competitve service
charge instead.
If these two principles are observed there can
never be a shortage of money there can only be a decrease in money as a function
of a decrease in total wealth or conversely an increase in money as a function
of an increase in wealth. But there can never be a shortage. Volume of
money would mirror accurately all "wealth" created by humans i.e. anything that
one person will pay another person for which includes services, capital wealth
and intellectual property.
Also, in a world without interest and free wealth
based creation of money the earners have no incentive to hoard and even if they
did, charging interest wouldn't solve the problem it would compound
it.
So, to ignore interest as a cost is an error and to
not see that interest is the axis of credit and therefore a deficit in
purchasing power is also an error. Now all the kids under 18 in the world
that are struggling with 90 hour work weeks for 16 dollars a month these errors
are really expensive it could cost them a bicylce even a mattress for their
sister, oh it could also cost them their sibblings lives, but what the
hell we can afford to theorize and live high off the hog and wonder whether
charging interest matters.
One day all those who chose to theorize at the
expence of the needy ( I say this because this is serious stuff that is not
to be talked about lightly) will feel as Schindler felt when upon realizing that
he was bribing the Nazis for every life he saved from the gas chambers with his
surplus fortune and that he hadn't given up enough i.e. he still lived
well. But those who clearly see the error of interest and proclaim it are
liberated because they saw the answer for everyone and anyone and defended it
without flinching and very importantly no matter the consequences unleashed by
those who would continue usury.
Best,
Marc
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 6:24
AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: [ijccr]
Re: Extrapolating A+B Part 1
The point is, that Douglas's A+B theorem deals with
principal, not interest, and shows a deficiency of purchasing power in the
hands of consumers quite apart from anything to do with the interest rate
charged. If interest on capital were zero, the deficiency of purchasing power
would still exist wherever capital formation is financed by new bank
credit.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 8:21
AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: [ijccr]
Re: Extrapolating A+B Part 1
Disagree all you want but the truth of the
matter is that Banks do not spend back the money they earn fast enough to
compensate for the difference between the demand created by principal +
interest and the correspondng amount of money in circulation. What is
possible is that the payment schedules are calculated in such a way that
what is demanded is available given a constant growth in lending. However
this is truly unrealistic because in real life such would assume a perfect
concert in lending between all banks. In any event when the volume of
lending slows, the timing required in schedules are affected with a tendency
to manifest a deficit of money leading to a spike of debt
failure.
To say that this has nothing to do with A + B
when prices of goods have everything to do with A + B and credit
availability and minimum price thresholds have everything to do with
outstanding liability per economic cycle, is to have a very narrow vision of
reality and of Douglas.
Marc
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005
8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re:
[ijccr] Re: Extrapolating A+B Part 1
I rather disagree with you.
As Governor of the Bank of Canada Graham Towers once
said "A Bank manufactures credit, just as a steel plant manufactures
steel".
The difference is that, because bank credit is in a
sense "pretend" money, it cannot be given away, only rented out, so that
the Bank charges for printing the tickets, and the community works to put
on the performance.
The idea that the "gap" between purchasing power and
prices has anything to do with bank interest is a red herring that has
confused explanations of Social Credit endlessly, including on this list.
There are moral reasons for saying usury is wrong, but they have nothing
to do with Douglas's A+B analysis, which deals with principal, not
interest.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005
9:12 AM
Subject: [socialcredit] Re: [ijccr]
Re: Extrapolating A+B Part 1
But the banks do not spend back 100% of
the money they take in, therefore they do not compensate fully for the
difference in the spread between the +ve feedback on loans and the +ve
feedback on deposits. the interest function continues to make
money scarcer than the aggregate demand in the form of debt.
Banking taken as a business is unlike
any other business and interest is unlike any other "price" on any
other good in society. Banking is power under the guise of
being a business and the banking sector shows this in being the
only sector that in the aggregate thrives both during economic crisis
and economic boom. It is the only oligarchy that doesn't require
ownership of a unique resource to establish itself, it is an oligarchy
that establishes itself by making a concept i.e. promissory notes a
scarce commodity. It does so through the combination of a unique
recipe where layman ignorance, circumstance, psychology, hope,
desire, honour and fear are combined with social convention in a
dynamic that transcends the grasp of most of their fellow human
beings.
The banking system is one that starts
the cycle of damage while monopolizing the means to address
suffering. The banking system is scourge the result of a
tremendous error in history the error of applying exponential control
loops as a control of a complex system. It was initiated when
the potential to grow out and beyond the limits of its unjust demands
existed and when the consequences of exponential control loops where
not known. We are now in an age where systems theory has
developed to the point that banking systems and their faulty design
represent elementary examples of folly.
What is not simple and herein lies the
challenge, is the tremendous psychological hold exponential debt money
has once it has become as ingrained and fundamental part of the
workings of all aspects of society. Nonetheless, the cause of the
nightmare remains deceptively simple.
Interest is +ve feedback and it affects
our behaviour in a destabilizing way and if we do not free ourselves
of it we are likely not going to survive.
Best,
Marc
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005
6:11 PM
Subject: [ijccr] Re:
Extrapolating A+B Part 1
"But the interest paid by the banks is much less
than
that exacted on
loans..."
------------------------
--------------------------
It
is less but there are also ordinary business
disbursements from
banks for salaries, utilities, etc.
plus dividends to
stockholders. Net interest received
is merely the gross
profit from which expenses are
deducted.
-
"...and you
have not accounted for the fact that
lending is the only source of
new money to pay
yesterday's
interest."
------------------------
--------------------------
It
is also the "only source of new money" to pay
yesterday's phone
bill, yesterday's utility bill, and
yesterday's wage
bill.
The flux and reflux of loan principal is
something
different than transfer payments from one party
to
another in ordinary transactions; they are
conceptually in
different categories.
The banker as businessman is in the
second category
when he receives interest or makes payments from
his
income; he keeps his books like any other businessman
and
must cover his checks while operating his business
with the
intention of making a profit, like any
other
businessman.
The socialist is dead wrong but less
wrong than the
tunnel-visioned monetary reformer; he sees the
problem
in profit, the "evil" to be eradicated.
M -> C
-> M + P; his version of the paradox is posed
thusly: If the
capitalist spends M with the intention
of getting back M + P, from
where does P arise?
His more generally stated but only slightly
less
simplistic solution: Abolish profit.
The socialist
expresses his utter contempt for the
monetary reformer who says
abolish interest only, for
the socialist more correctly recognizes,
if only
slightly, that interest is merely a subcategory
of
profit.
In either case, the "solution" is the spanner in
the
works of the market economy.
And with the spanner goes
the hope for
economic
democracy.
-
--- Marc
Gauvin <gauvin@wanadoo.es> wrote:
William,
But the
interest paid by the banks is much less than
that exacted on loans
and you have not accounted for
the fact that lending is the only
source of new money
to pay yesterday's
interest.
Best,
Marc
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