| Subject: | RE: [socialcredit] RE: [NZ_Banking_Reform] Re: [socialcredit] RE: NOT TRUE(02) - the world is in the same boat. thecure is vigorously use democracy. | | Date: | Saturday, October 15, 2005 20:27:07 (+0000) | | From: | John G Rawson <johngrawson @.......com>
|
Frankly, Henry, this is typical Bridger verbosity. A hell of a lot of good
stuff enclosed in twenty times the number of words necessary to convey it, and
not one single mention of the practical "how".
Yes, I believe we need to take from the banks the right to create money, but
the only apparently sensible one I have read seems to have been in Hatterslee's
submissions to their Commission.
A I understand it, Douglas advocated attacking the "monopoly" of credit
creation by allowing the Credit Authority also to create money and toi use it in
sensible ways to overcome the shortage of purchasing power due to the system. If
he anywhere gave a mechanism for taking the creation of money completely away
from the banks, that is what I am asking you to quote. Complete with where the
hell the banks are going to get the money they will lend, because we know
they can NOT lend their deposits.
Regards. John R.
From: "Henry Raynel" <henry.raynel@actrix.gen.nz>
Reply-To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
To: <paul@paulfromm.com>,
<NZ_Banking_Reform@yahoogroups.com>,<socialcredit@elistas.com>
CC: "Tim
Leitch" <TimLeitch@woosh.co.nz>,"GeoffreyLawn >" <" <lawngd"@ihug.co.nz>,"Garry
Knapp" <knapp.gt@xtra.co.nz>,"Darryl Coughey" <darryl@pbtech.co.nz>,"Fiona
Clayton-Law" <callisto.fmcl@xtra.co.nz>,"RobertCarroll"
<monques@i-link-2.net>,"`Reg Williams" <reg2000@xtra.co.nz>,"Alasdair Day"
<alasdairday@hotmail.com>,"Barry Raynel" <barryray@clear.net.nz>,"Bill Daly"
<b.daly@xtra.co.nz>, "Carol" <carol@highland.co.nz>,"Colgan. Farms. Puni"
<colgan.farms.puni@xtra.co.nz>,"DavidFletcher" <david_vt@xtra.co.nz>,"David
Wilson" <wilson_df@xtra.co.nz>,"Don Bethune"
<donbeth@dominc.cjb.net>,"Doug lever" <clever@ihug.co.nz>,"errolBaird"
<ebaird@paradise.net.nz>,"fletch Tabuteau" <fletch_ht@xtra.co.nz>,"Gary Moson"
<g.monson@alchemy.co.nz>,"Guy Steward" <gpsteward@xtra.co.nz>,"Holmes Gary"
<grholmes@xtra.co.nz>,"Ian Andrews" <iandrews@ihug.co.nz>,"Jami-lee Ross"
<jami.lee@xtra.co.nz>,"Joe Pickens" <pickenz@hotmail.com>,"John G Rawson"
<johngrawson@hotmail.com>,"John Pemberton" <pemberj@slingshot.co.nz>,"John
Rabarts" <john.rabarts@ihug.co.nz>,"Jonathan Eisen" <jon.boy@ihug.co.nz>,"Kent
Deirdre" <deirdrek@paradise.net.nz>,"LowellManning" <manning@kapiti.co.nz>,"Luke
Bridgeman" <lbbridgeman@hotmail.com>,"N.Z. Democratic Party"
<nzdp.inc@xtra.co.nz>,"PeterChallen" <peter@southwark.org.uk>,"Peter Haines"
<petros@ihug.co.nz>,"PeterRaynel"
<beta4u@actrix.co.nz>,"Ray Palmer" <whanau@k10b052.kohanga.ac.nz>,"Raybaikie"
<raybaikie@hisplace.co.nz>,"Reg Williams" <reg2000@woosh.co.nz>,"Robert
Balgarnie" <rnb@northnet.com.au>,"Rodney Shakespeare"
<Rodney.Shakespeare1@btopenworld.com>,"Roger Monckton"
<roger.monckton@paradise.net.nz>,"Stephniede Ruyter"
<s.deruyter@callsouth.net.nz>,"Steve Baron" <steve@baron-marketing.co.nz>,"Tom
Elliott" <tomormell@hotmail.com>,"Tony Cardy" <cardy@callsouth.net.nz>,"Trevor
Crosby" <tamac@xtra.co.nz>,"Victor Bridger" <socred@ecn.net.au>,"W. H.
McGunnigle" <mcgunnigle@win.co.nz>,"William B. Ryan"
<w_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] RE: [NZ_Banking_Reform] Re:
[socialcredit] RE: NOT TRUE(02) - the world is in the same boat. thecure is
vigorously use democracy.
Date: Sat, 15 Oct
2005 15:16:18 +1300
>Hello Joe Thomson, John Rawson and everybody,
>I tried to
keep postings brief but it proves you requires more than
brief
>information.
>John Rawson informed me you had advised him on Douglas
writings but you have
>not quoted to me what you found of Douglas’s to justify
your claim that
>private bankers could and would be able to retain their right to
own and
>supply society with their credit supply, - (society’s credit money
supply).
>To help more on the issue I have done some limited research and will
quote
>some findings.
>
>My study of Douglas gives evidence to the opposite, that
Society should own
>and operate its own credit. After all the credit does belong
to the people
>and surely they have a right to own and manage it.
>
>I have tried
to assist by giving you, John
Rawson and all reading this the
>most reliable authority on Social Credit
Banking reform that I know of.
>Obviously more could be researched. However I
will endeavour to help you
>with additional authoritative material including some
of Douglas statements.
>
>In the following I give you another authority by a
gentleman who studied C H
>Douglas and received the highest Social Credit
education standard awarded
>and it was awarded to him by the limited few
distinguished Fellows of "The
>Social Credit Secretariat". I understand he is now
the only living student
>holding this qualification. Arguably he has read and
studied more of the 700
>pieces of literature that is in C H Douglas’s library
than any of us.
>
>C H Douglas and a number of his committed close disciples
originally
>established this "Social Credit
Secretariat" and its purpose was to
>safeguarding the authenticity of Douglas
Social Credit and Mr Victor Bridger
>Director of the Social Credit School of
Studies did his study under them.
>
>I now quote briefly from Bridger’s book
“Brief outline of Social Credit”
>page 10.
>…………………………
>1. “That the power to
produce must be balanced with the power to consume.
>2. That the Monopoly of
Credit must be terminated and the right to issue and
>control all money and
credit be vested in a statutory body as representing
>the people.
>3. That
savings shall not be diverted from their proper function purchasing
>power.
>4.
That Money and Credit be a means of Distribution only and not a commodity
>to be
bought and sold at interest
>5. That provision of purchasing power must be made
for those not employed
or
>displaced from industry by labour- saving machinery.
>……………………..
>Further
still quoting Bridger:
>1. That there must be at all times an equation between
purchasing power and
>prices, and that credit must be recalled only as goods are
consumed.
>2. That industry must be financed by Credits created for the purpose
and not
>by savings.
>
>And on page 12 Bridger continues: APPLICATION OF THESE
PRINCIPLES.
>“It will be seen that these principles cover the defects in the
existing
>system, and that within them a solution is provided that is
both
>preventative and remedial. How can we put it this solution into
practice???
>The first step will be to establishment of a National Credit Authority to
>take
complete control of the money system and put the affairs of the nation
>on a
proper accountancy basis.
This would restore money power to the people
>and do away with the monopoly of
Credit by private interests.
>
>Quote in an article by C H Douglas in the Glasgow
evening Times:
>At a meeting of the Scottish Bankers Association a resolution was
carried
>instructing the committee to consider the terms, which bankers should
ask on
>being confronted with nationalisation, it being considered it was bound
to
>come. Douglas response;
> “If for the word “nationalisation” the phrase
“socialisation of credit’
>were substituted I should agree.” Page 10 C H Douglas
booklet
>“RECONSTRUCTION”
>PAGE 12 Douglas………….ONLY ONE CURE.
>With the best will
in the world to find a more complicated explanation of an
>extremely complicated
world situation, I find it impossible to arrive at any
>conclusion other than
that I
endeavoured to put before my kindly Scots
>audience at St Andrew’s Hall, and
that is that the main cause of the world’s
>economic difficulties at present time
is the same in every country, and may
>be found in the annexation and justifiable
claim to the monopoly of public
>credit by financial institutions. And
fundamentally there can be only one
>cure for this situation --- to place that
credit at the disposal of those
>from whom it arises --- that collection of
individuals from which e agree to
>call “the public”.
>
>C H Douglas in his
address 1936 page 7: - DICTATORSHIP BY TAXATION
>………………………………..
>May I make this
point clear beyond all doubt? It is the claim to the
>ownership of money, which
is the core of the matter. Any person or any
>organization who can create
practically at will sums of money equivalent
to
>the price values of all the goods produced by the community is the
virtual
>owner of those goods, and, therefore, the claim of the banking system to
the
>ownership of the money which it creates is a claim to the ownership of
the
>country.
>
>C H Douglas his book “CONTRL AND DISTRIBUTION OF PRODUCTION”
page 18:
>“………………But the deduction to be made from this is of
transcendent
>importance --- it is that to control industry in the interest of
use-values
>you must back use with credit. And that means the control of credit.
And in
>order to control credit the base on which it rests must be altered to
meet
>the changed aspirations of society. The economic power of labour is
a
>potential power. By withholding it, Labour (using the term in its
widest
>sense) can breakdown civilisation; but it cannot build it up
again by any
>agency that the mind of man has yet received which does not
involve the use
>of credit in some form or other. The community creates all the
credit there
>is; there is nothing what ever to prevent the community entering
into its
>own and dwelling therein except it shall be by sheer demonstrated
inability
>to seize the opportunity which at this very moment lies open to it;
an
>opportunity which if seized aright would within 10 years reduce class- war
>to
an absurdity and politics to the status of a disease”. End quote.
>
>C H Douglas
in his book “MONOPOLY OF CREDIT”PAGES 120,121
>“If civilisation is not to
disappear altogether, there will within a
>comparatively short period of time
arise a situation in which bankers as at
>present understood will be replaced. It
seems important to recognise
that
>when this situation does arise it will be just as easy to inaugurate
a
>financial system that will meet all the necessities of modern
civilisation,
>as to introduce piecemeal reforms. Here again there is much
evidence of
>inability to think clearly on the matter. Numbers of well disposed
people
>recognise the implacable hostility with which effective proposals are
met,
>and are tempted to say in effect “we cannot do the right thing, let us
at
>any rate do something”.
>
>“Although it seems difficult to obtain general
understanding of it,
>fundamentally a financial system is a matter of pure
arithmetic, and the
>result which will be obtained depend entirely upon the
arithmetical factors
>which are employed and only to a very temporary extent on
the particular
>brand of black magic which is superimposed,
Whatever may be the case in
>other matters, compromise in arithmetic seems
singularly out of place, and
>it is much better that the present defective system
should be allowed to
>discredit its upholders, so to render genuine
reconstruction possible, than
>that an alternative, of which the effects are not
sufficiently beneficial as
>to place it at once in an impregnable position should
be substituted for
> it.” End quote.
>
>These statements show C H Douglas did not
believe banks should remain owners
>of society’s money supply. There are more
than one reason why society must
>own its money supply, but the fact, that banker
ownership gives the bankers
>financial power to manipulate the economics of
society, is sufficient reason
>to change the ownership of money and to place that
that ownership and
>management in
an independent state organization that is independent of both
>private bankers
and politicians.
>
>Social Crediters should know that collectively bankers own
and manage
>trillions of dollars. In fact they have created and put into
circulation and
>manage every dollar in existence. These existing dollars are
used to
>manipulate every aspect of the industry and commerce of the world AND
THE
>LIVES OF EVERY HUMAN BEING. Because of their proven miss management
and
>their use of our Society’s credit.
>For their own personal use to capture
the economic control of all nations of
>the world it surprises me that any
student of C H Douglas Social Credit
>could suggest that this credit and power
should be remain with them.
>About 4 Billions human beings in the world live in
poverty about half of
>them in abject poverty,
--- leave existing Society’s Credit with the
>bankers and the situation will
continue to deteriorate.
>
>Proper management of the economics of society will
undoubtedly require the
>proper scientific management of society’s money supply
along the lines of my
>previous posting.
>
>For a variety of reasons some Social
Crediters have acknowledged to me that
>they have not done serious study of our
founders writings. May I humbly
>request that every Social Crediter does a
serious study of the writings of C
>H Douglas? Understanding present faulty
economics becomes so much easier and
>logical, that you will always be pleased
that you did.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Joe Thomson
[mailto:thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca]
>Sent: Thursday, 13 October 2005 4:27 a.m.
>To:
socialcredit@elistas.com;
NZ_Banking_Reform@yahoogroups.com;
>paul@paulfromm.com
>Cc: William B. Ryan; W.
H. McGunnigle; Victor Bridger; Trevor Crosby;
>Tony Cardy; Tom Elliott; Steve
Baron; Stephniede Ruyter; Roger Monckton;
>Rodney Shakespeare; Robert Balgarnie;
Reg Williams; Raybaikie; Ray
>Palmer; PeterRaynel; Peter Haines; PeterChallen;
N.Z. Democratic Party;
>Luke Bridgeman; LowellManning; Kent Deirdre; Jonathan
Eisen; John
>Rabarts; John Pemberton; John G Rawson; Joe Pickens; Jami-lee Ross;
Ian
>Andrews; Holmes Gary; Guy Steward; Gary Moson; fletch Tabuteau;
>errolBaird;
Doug lever; Don Bethune; David Wilson; DavidFletcher;
>Colgan. Farms. Puni;
Carol; Bill Daly; Barry Raynel; Alasdair Day; `Reg
>Williams; RobertCarroll;
Fiona Clayton-Law; Darryl Coughey; Garry Knapp;
>GeoffreyLawn >
>Subject: Re:
[socialcredit] RE:
[NZ_Banking_Reform] Re: [socialcredit]
>RE: NOT TRUE(02) - the world is in the
same boat. thecure is vigorously
>use democracy.
>
>
>Hello Henry, (and
All),
>
>Not to disagree with you, but to seek clarification of something which
seems
>to me to be somewhat of a sticking point on which many discussions
about
>Social Credit seem to stall.
>
>You wrote, quoting from a publication put
out by the SC Secretariat in
>1994:- "The power to create money must be withdrawn
from the commercial
>banking system. The creation of the communities money
supply, debt free,
>must revert
> to a government authority - a National Credit
Authority...."
>
>If the first sentence above had said, "The EXCLUSIVE power to
create money
>must be withdrawn from the commercial banking....", I wouldn't be
asking
>what I'm about to ask. But it does not. And so I must ask, just
"where"
>in C H Douglas's writings does he clearly say that the actual "CREATION" of
>ALL
'money' is to be the exclusive purview of the NCA?
>
>It is my current
understanding, and I may well indeed be mistaken, that the
>NCA, or National
Credit "Office", I believe Douglas called it, was to be a
>purely 'statistical'
agency. Charged with instructing the central bank or
>national Treasury to make
the necessary payouts in regards to the National
>Dividend and the Consumer Price
Discount as apprporiate.
>
>I have not seen from Douglas where "ALL" credit
"creation" is to be actually
>'centralized' in such an 'Authority'. I'm not
saying for a moment such a
>proposal may not have been made, though from what
I've read of Douglas it
>would
seem to me to be counter to his constant call for "de-centralization".
>And I
have a bit of trouble envisioning just how such an arrangement as the
>1994
Secretariat seems to propose would work without the danger that the NCA
>could
become 'master' over the people, rather than a 'servant' of them.
>Could you
please elaborate, or point me towards a reference in Douglas that
>confirms the
1994 Secretariat's position?
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Joe
Thomson.
>
>
>
>
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