| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Replying to John Rawson 1 | | Date: | Tuesday, November 8, 2005 15:33:04 (-0700) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <hattersleyjm @.........com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 3018 (written by John G Rawson) |
I can't see why administration of a "Just Price" mechanism should seem so
complicated. Most countries already have in place a mechanism for collecting some
sort of Sales Tax, VAT or GST - whatever you want to call it. Surely, it would
not be so difficult to reduce the rate of tax, or even make it a negative amount,
in accordance with economic conditions. This would have the effect of reducing
prices automatically. In Canada, our GST is one of the most unpopular taxes
around, and abolishing it would be politically very popular as long as people
believed that the process being used was economically sound.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St. Edmonton AB Canada
Phone (780)423-2081; Fax (780)425-5247
e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca;
hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: John G Rawson
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Replying to John Rawson 1
Thabks, Jim. That's all very fine theory, but the actual price of a good is
what it costs the vendor plus the profit he wants to make on it, the latter
being modified by whether he can get away with it or not. In any free society
such as we envisage.
And the last part of your message suggests the "just price" mechanism to
control prices, which I have been told is not what is envisaged. But if it is, I
simply can't imagine the army of clerks needed to set "just" prices for every
article and service, modified by geography in many cases to allow for distance of
transport etc. It would be a bureaucratic nightmare, even if it did bring full
employment, mostly by the government.
Obviously the other method is the one considered, and I can not see how it
would stop prices rising.
Refgards. John R.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jim <jschroeder@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Replying to John Rawson 1
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:10:48 -0700
Hi John:
Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that you are receptive to the idea of a
compensated price.
The logic is as follows:
1) The true cost of production is consumption of all production over an
equivalent time period. "For example, the real cost under all conditions of
growing an ear of corn is the seeds from which it grows." (The Nation's Credit)
2) Therefore; the real price of a good is:
Price* consumption/production
Consumption is the mean consumption for a given time period, and production
is the mean production for a given time period. Capital depreciation is included
in consumption statistics, and capital appreciation is included in production
statistics. Since consumption is less than production, the real/just price of a
product is less than it's monetary price by the ratio of consumption/production.
This cannot be inflationary because prices are falling.
"No legal compulsion would be necessary. Retailers who would not accept the
JUST PRICE scheme would be free to sell at the ordinary financial price, but in
that case they would receive no money from the State and would have to try and
sell their goods in competition with others, who had accepted the JUST PRICE and
were in a position to undersell them." (The Nations Credit)
Take care,
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: John G Rawson
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Replying to John Rawson 1
Greetings, Jim.
Many, many years ago, my elders, betters and mentors explained a "Just
Price Discount". The principle was that any retailer who sold at an agreed fair
or "just" price, had it topped up by funds from the Credit Authority or whatever.
Those who sold at a higher price did not get it and therefore had a hurdle to
overcome if they wanted to charge more, and thus prices would be controlled from
rising. When I noted, later, that setting fair prices for all goods etc. in
every part of the country would be a bureaucratic nightmare, I was told that this
concept was all wrong. The C.A. would simply refund the purchaser a certain
percentage of his payment on receipt of dockets proving purchase, regardless of
price.
Now I need someone to explain to me how this would work without simply
subsidising increasing prices and thus fostering inflation. And please don't
hand me "competition" in a time when it is becoming less and less effective. And
could be much less so in a Socred economy without a shortage of purchasing power.
Also tell me how to put this across to the public without it simply looking like
pure "funny money".
Clinch these points for me and I'll start yet another crusade, for the
Party to adopt this principle. But let's have some practical data, not just
reference to the time Douglas spent promoting it. Even the most brilliant people
are not right every time.
Regards. John R.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jim <jschroeder@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Replying to John Rawson 1
Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 17:22:04 -0700
The compensated price principle is probably the most important aspect of
Douglas' economic analysis. The replacement of the wage with a dividend is
secondary. I find it odd that any "Social Credit" Party would focus on the
latter, but ignore the former, when Douglas spent most of his time explaining the
former.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: John G Rawson
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 2:01 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Replying to John Rawson 1
Sorry, Joe, not biting. All I was doing was stating fact. It seems
nobody has ever convinced the Party of the practicability of the price discount
in action, and that includes me.
Regards. John R.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Replying to John Rawson 1
Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 08:49:18 -0800
Without trying to bring down any 'new controversy', or add to any
old ones, how in the world can the NZ Democrats be ''bound by constitution to the
Douglas analysis and the National dividend" WITHOUT also having a 'compensated
price discount'? Is that analysis not primarily concerned with 'consumer'
incomes and their relationship with 'consumer' prices, or am I missing something
in my reading of Douglas and others on here and elsewhere who've been
interpreting him?
Seems to me you're not trying to "build up, from the individual",
but rather "down, from the State". Why not look at and offer what the man
originally proposed? If you're determined to go the 'politcal party' route could
you do any worse with the electorate by that than in going the way you've gone?
Why do you people so 'fear' the empowerment of 'consumers', and yet profess to
believe that 'democracy' is the ability of the individual to "choose or refuse
one thing at a time"? Or is that 'one thing at a time' as envisioned by the
Democrats drawn from a list of things only pre-selected by the annointed?
And where is the difference between the 'government' using the
central bank to finance some of its expenditure, and private industry borrowing
from private banks to finance theirs? Do not both 'inflate' the money supply and
dilute the general purchasing power by raising prices of 'consumer' goods almost
exactly the same way? Oh, I know, you're going to save "all that awful
interest", and that just makes it so worthwhile. But can't you see you're
trading a smaller problem for a bigger one? How long will it be after the
'infrastructure' that might be necessary and desirable to have is completed
before the purpose of that 'infrastructure' will be perverted into the
all-too-familiar, "Now if we only financed another hydro scheme, port facility,
railway, whatever, the same way, just look at the potential for 'capturing' new
'export' markets and all the 'jobs' we could create. Not to mention how much
'easier' it will be to pay for what we've already done"? Where does that ever
end? Are you not right back to 'guns before butter'? Where is the "Douglas
analysis'' you're ''constitutionally bound to" in that regard?
And what difference does it make how much of the money supply is in
'notes and coins' versus electronic blips that transfer figures from one account
to another everytime someone uses a debit card or receives their income by direct
deposit? The 'money' in your account and accessible to you that way is no
different than coin or cash in your pocket providing it will be accepted as
effective demand for goods and services. And is it not that 'effective demand' we
should be concerned with? And does not that 'effective demand' have as much to
do with CONSUMER PRICES as it does with distributing incomes?
Regards,
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: John G Rawson
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Replying to John Rawson 1
Thanks Martin. And also thanks (belatedly) for the material in
your submissions which I consider brilliant.
Our NZ Democrats are bound by constitution to the Douglas analysis
and the national dividend concept, but have never really adopted the price
discount one. And contrary to Douglas, we consider that so little modern money
is notes and coins (M0) that it is the government's duty to use central bank
credit for some of its expenditure, if only to restore a past status quo. As was
done very successfully by our 1935 Labour govt. before that Party lost its
principles.
I am not seeking to bring a whole new controversy down on my head
(again) by noting this; just stating our current thinking for your information.
Regards. John R.
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Hattersley <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Replying to John Rawson 1
Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 16:21:21 -0700
>I think you are right, that "100% money" doesn't really provide
a
>practical way of making the economy work in an optimum way.
>
>The problem is that "The cunning device That all costs enter
price
>Ensures that the price can't be paid".
>
>That is the argument for a Just Price discount, paid for from
an
>external source, such as newly created "fiat" money.
>
>The essence of the problem identified in the A+B theorem is
that
>capital spending, if fiinanced by borrowing new bank credit,
leads
>to the community paying, through inflation, for the privately
owned
>asset so created. A Just Price discount, which can be
administered
>with no more difficulty than existing sales taxes, would repay
the
>community for this sacrifice when new production comes on the
>market, and correct any inflation of prices that has taken
place.
>
>As I see the present situation, monetary policy of providing
very
>low rates to borrowers to encourage investment, is promoting
>excessive capital development at the expense of the ecology,
also
>speculation and continuous inflation. This distributes incomes
>through employment on capital projects, but leave a trail of
debt, a
>concentration of economic power, and a growing gap between the
>"haves" and the "have nots" both domestically and between
nations.
>
>Not good.
>
>Martin Hattersley
>1970-10123-99 St. Edmonton AB Canada
>Phone (780)423-2081; Fax (780)425-5247
>e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca;
>hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "William B. Ryan"
><w_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
>To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 3:48 PM
>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Replying to John Rawson 1
>
>
>>Hatterley's proposal was based on Frederick Soddy's
>>one hundred percent reserve proposal, called "pound
>>for pound" in Britain and "dollar for dollar" in
>>America. It was also called the "Chicago Plan." It
>>was precisely this proposal that Douglas was correctly
>>arguing against in his 1933 letter to Denis Byrne
>>previously cited:
>>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium/douglas-byrne-1933.txt
>>
>>In a true one hundred percent reserve system there
>>could be no loans.
>>
>>What is usually called one hundred percent is a legal
>>fiction where one hundred percent reserves are
>>required against "checking" deposits, and something
>>less than one hundred percent are required against
>>"saving" deposits, or some variation thereof.
>>
>>So something less than one hundred percent is required
>>against the totality of deposits.
>>
>>The difference between the quantity of reserves and
>>the quantity of deposits is inevitably bank created
>>credit, whatever you want to call it.
>>
>>Loans create deposits; there's no getting around it.
>>
>>Period.
>>
>>What you would have in reality is a system perhaps
>>more tightly regulated that the one we have today, but
>>still very much fractional reserve.
>>
>>Otherwise, no modern economy could function.
>>
>>
>>
>>--- John G Rawson <johngrawson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Joe, surely you know the "line" of the orthodox
>>economists as well as I do. "All inflation is a
>>result of too much money ....". They admit to the
>>phenomenon of cost push inflation, but then proceed to
>>ignore it. Even now, when we have inflated prices
>>caused by high oil costs, our RB (and I think others)
>>are considering the ridiculous remedy of raising
>>interest rates to control the volume of money in
>>crculation. But, of course, increased interest rates
>>tend to increase bank earnings, and the central banks
>>tend to serve the banks, not the nations.
>>
>>But apart from all these asides, what I am looking
>>for, IF we decide to take away from the banks the
>>right to create our money, (as the Movement has
>>preached loudly in this country from when I was a
>>child), HOW can we do it?
>>
>>And despite some opinions, obviously it CAN NOT be
>>done by manipulating reserve ratios, which, when
>>applied, relate to deposits, not advances. (For once
>>I am trying to be very precise, for the benefit of
>>those who persist in avoiding the main point and
>>picking up side issues.) I still think the Hattersley
>>(apologies for previous mis-spelling) approach is the
>>only reasonable one I have encountered yet.
>>
>>Regards, John R.
>>
>>
>>
>>__________________________________
>>Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>>http://farechase.yahoo.com
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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list
>>are at
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>>hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
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>>http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>
>>
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>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I can't see why administration of a "Just Price"
mechanism should seem so complicated. Most countries already have in place a
mechanism for collecting some sort of Sales Tax, VAT or GST - whatever you want
to call it. Surely, it would not be so difficult to reduce the rate of tax, or
even make it a negative amount, in accordance with economic conditions. This
would have the effect of reducing prices automatically. In Canada, our GST is
one of the most unpopular taxes around, and abolishing it would be politically
very popular as long as people believed that the process being used was
economically sound.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St. Edmonton AB Canada<BR>Phone
(780)423-2081; Fax (780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:jmartinh@shaw.ca">jmartinh@shaw.ca</A>;<BR><A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=johngrawson@hotmail.com href="mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com">John G
Rawson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 07, 2005 10:25
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Replying to
John Rawson 1</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Thabks, Jim. That's all very fine theory, but the actual
price of a good is what it costs the vendor plus the profit he wants to make
on it, the latter being modified by whether he can get away with it or
not. In any free society such as we envisage.</P>
<P>And the last part of your message suggests the "just price" mechanism to
control prices, which I have been told is not what is envisaged. But if
it is, I simply can't imagine the army of clerks needed to set "just" prices
for every article and service, modified by geography in many cases to allow
for distance of transport etc. It would be a bureaucratic nightmare,
even if it did bring full employment, mostly by the government.</P>
<P>Obviously the other method is the one considered, and I can not see how it
would stop prices rising.</P>
<P>Refgards. <FONT color=#339933 size=4>John R.</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px solid;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>
From: <I>Jim <jschroeder@shaw.ca></I><BR>Reply-To:
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>To:
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>Subject: <I>Re: [socialcredit] Replying
to John Rawson 1</I><BR>Date: <I>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:10:48 -0700</I><BR><BR>
<META content="Microsoft SafeHTML" name=Generator>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi John:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that you are
receptive to the idea of a compensated price.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The logic is as follows:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1) The true cost of production is
consumption of all production over an equivalent time period. "<FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=2>For example, the real cost under all
conditions of growing an ear of corn is the seeds from which it
grows." (The Nation's Credit)</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2) Therefore; the real price of a good
is:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Price* consumption/production</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Consumption is the mean consumption for a given
time period, and production is the mean production for a given time
period. Capital depreciation is included in consumption statistics,
and capital appreciation is included in production statistics. Since
consumption is less than production, the real/just price of a product is
less than it's monetary price by the ratio of
consumption/production.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This cannot be inflationary because prices are
falling.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2>No legal
compulsion would be necessary. Retailers who would not accept the JUST PRICE
scheme would be free to sell at the ordinary financial price, but in that
case they would receive no money from the State and would have to try and
sell their goods in competition with others, who had accepted the JUST PRICE
and were in a position to undersell them." (The Nations
Credit)</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Take care,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jim</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=johngrawson@hotmail.com
href="mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com">John G Rawson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 06, 2005 10:13
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Replying
to John Rawson 1</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Greetings, Jim. </P>
<P>Many, many years ago, my elders, betters and mentors explained a "Just
Price Discount". The principle was that any retailer who sold at an
agreed fair or "just" price, had it topped up by funds from the Credit
Authority or whatever. Those who sold at a higher price did not get it and
therefore had a hurdle to overcome if they wanted to charge more, and thus
prices would be controlled from rising. When I noted, later, that
setting fair prices for all goods etc. in every part of the country would
be a bureaucratic nightmare, I was told that this concept was all
wrong. The C.A. would simply refund the purchaser a certain
percentage of his payment on receipt of dockets proving purchase,
regardless of price.</P>
<P>Now I need someone to explain to me how this would work without simply
subsidising increasing prices and thus fostering inflation. And
please don't hand me "competition" in a time when it is becoming less and
less effective. And could be much less so in a Socred economy
without a shortage of purchasing power. Also tell me how to put this
across to the public without it simply looking like pure "funny
money".</P>
<P>Clinch these points for me and I'll start yet another crusade, for the
Party to adopt this principle. But let's have some practical data,
not just reference to the time Douglas spent promoting it. Even the
most brilliant people are not right every time.</P>
<P>Regards. <FONT color=#339933 size=4>John
R.</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>
From: <I>Jim <jschroeder@shaw.ca></I><BR>Reply-To:
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>To:
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>Subject: <I>Re: [socialcredit]
Replying to John Rawson 1</I><BR>Date: <I>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 17:22:04
-0700</I><BR><BR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The compensated price principle is probably
the most important aspect of Douglas' economic analysis. The
replacement of the wage with a dividend is secondary. I find it
odd that any "Social Credit" Party would focus on the latter, but ignore
the former, when Douglas spent most of his time explaining the
former.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jim</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=johngrawson@hotmail.com
href="mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com">John G Rawson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 06, 2005
2:01 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit]
Replying to John Rawson 1</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Sorry, Joe, not biting. All I was doing was stating
fact. It seems nobody has ever convinced the Party of the
practicability of the price discount in action, and that includes
me.</P>
<P>Regards. <FONT color=#339933 size=4>John
R.</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>
From: <I>Joe Thomson <<A
href="mailto:thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca">thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca</A>></I><BR>Reply-To:
<I><A
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A></I><BR>To:
<I><A
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A></I><BR>Subject:
<I>Re: [socialcredit] Replying to John Rawson 1</I><BR>Date: <I>Sat,
05 Nov 2005 08:49:18 -0800</I><BR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Without trying to bring down any 'new
controversy', or add to any old ones, how in the world can the NZ
Democrats be ''bound by constitution to the Douglas analysis and the
National dividend" WITHOUT also having a 'compensated price
discount'? Is that analysis not primarily concerned
with 'consumer' incomes and their relationship with 'consumer'
prices, or am I missing something in my reading of Douglas and
others on here and elsewhere who've been interpreting
him? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Seems to me you're not trying to "build
up, from the individual", but rather "down, from the
State". Why not look at and offer what the man originally
proposed? If you're determined to go the 'politcal party'
route could you do any worse with the electorate by
that than in going the way you've gone? Why do you people
so 'fear' the empowerment of 'consumers', and yet profess to believe
that 'democracy' is the ability of the individual to "choose or
refuse one thing at a time"? Or is that 'one thing at a
time' as envisioned by the Democrats drawn from a list of
things only pre-selected by the annointed? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And where is the difference between the
'government' using the central bank to finance some of its
expenditure, and private industry borrowing from private banks to
finance theirs? Do not both 'inflate' the money supply and
dilute the general purchasing power by raising prices of
'consumer' goods almost exactly the same way? Oh, I know,
you're going to save "all that awful interest", and that just makes
it so worthwhile. But can't you see you're trading
a smaller problem for a bigger one? How long will it
be after the 'infrastructure' that might be necessary and
desirable to have is completed before the purpose of that
'infrastructure' will be perverted into the all-too-familiar, "Now
if we only financed another hydro scheme, port facility, railway,
whatever, the same way, just look at the potential for
'capturing' new 'export' markets and all the 'jobs' we could
create. Not to mention how much 'easier' it will be to pay for
what we've already done"? Where does that ever end? Are
you not right back to 'guns before butter'? Where is
the "Douglas analysis'' you're ''constitutionally bound to" in
that regard? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And what difference does it make how
much of the money supply is in 'notes and coins' versus
electronic blips that transfer figures from one account to another
everytime someone uses a debit card or receives their income by
direct deposit? The 'money' in your account and accessible to
you that way is no different than coin or cash in your pocket
providing it will be accepted as effective demand for goods and
services. And is it not that 'effective demand' we should be
concerned with? And does not that 'effective demand' have as
much to do with CONSUMER PRICES as it does with distributing
incomes?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joe</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=johngrawson@hotmail.com
href="mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com">John G Rawson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 04,
2005 9:16 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit]
Replying to John Rawson 1</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Thanks Martin. And also thanks (belatedly) for the
material in your submissions which I consider brilliant.</P>
<P>Our NZ Democrats are bound by constitution to the Douglas
analysis and the national dividend concept, but have never
really adopted the price discount one. And contrary to
Douglas, we consider that so little modern money is notes and
coins (M0) that it is the government's duty to use central bank
credit for some of its expenditure, if only to restore a past
status quo. As was done very successfully by our 1935 Labour
govt. before that Party lost its principles.</P>
<P>I am not seeking to bring a whole new controversy down on my
head (again) by noting this; just stating our current
thinking for your information.</P>
<P>Regards. <FONT color=#339933 size=4>John
R.</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
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From: <I>Martin Hattersley
<hattersleyjm@interbaun.com></I><BR>Reply-To:
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>To:
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>Subject: <I>Re:
[socialcredit] Replying to John Rawson 1</I><BR>Date: <I>Fri, 04
Nov 2005 16:21:21 -0700</I><BR>>I think you are right, that
"100% money" doesn't really provide a <BR>>practical way of
making the economy work in an optimum way.<BR>><BR>>The
problem is that "The cunning device That all costs enter price
<BR>>Ensures that the price can't be
paid".<BR>><BR>>That is the argument for a Just Price
discount, paid for from an <BR>>external source, such as
newly created "fiat" money.<BR>><BR>>The essence of the
problem identified in the A+B theorem is that <BR>>capital
spending, if fiinanced by borrowing new bank credit, leads
<BR>>to the community paying, through inflation, for the
privately owned <BR>>asset so created. A Just Price discount,
which can be administered <BR>>with no more difficulty than
existing sales taxes, would repay the <BR>>community for this
sacrifice when new production comes on the <BR>>market, and
correct any inflation of prices that has taken
place.<BR>><BR>>As I see the present situation, monetary
policy of providing very <BR>>low rates to borrowers to
encourage investment, is promoting <BR>>excessive capital
development at the expense of the ecology, also
<BR>>speculation and continuous inflation. This distributes
incomes <BR>>through employment on capital projects, but
leave a trail of debt, a <BR>>concentration of economic
power, and a growing gap between the <BR>>"haves" and the
"have nots" both domestically and between
nations.<BR>><BR>>Not good.<BR>><BR>>Martin
Hattersley<BR>>1970-10123-99 St. Edmonton AB
Canada<BR>>Phone (780)423-2081; Fax
(780)425-5247<BR>>e-mail:
jmartinh@shaw.ca;<BR>>hattersleyjm@interbaun.com<BR>><BR>><BR>>-----
Original Message ----- From: "William B. Ryan"
<BR>><w_b_ryan@yahoo.com><BR>>To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com><BR>>Sent: Monday, October
24, 2005 3:48 PM<BR>>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Replying to
John Rawson 1<BR>><BR>><BR>>>Hatterley's proposal
was based on Frederick Soddy's<BR>>>one hundred percent
reserve proposal, called "pound<BR>>>for pound" in Britain
and "dollar for dollar" in<BR>>>America. It was also
called the "Chicago Plan." It<BR>>>was precisely this
proposal that Douglas was correctly<BR>>>arguing against
in his 1933 letter to Denis Byrne<BR>>>previously
cited:<BR>>>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium/douglas-byrne-1933.txt<;BR>>><BR>>>In
a true one hundred percent reserve system there<BR>>>could
be no loans.<BR>>><BR>>>What is usually called one
hundred percent is a legal<BR>>>fiction where one hundred
percent reserves are<BR>>>required against "checking"
deposits, and something<BR>>>less than one hundred percent
are required against<BR>>>"saving" deposits, or some
variation thereof.<BR>>><BR>>>So something less than
one hundred percent is required<BR>>>against the totality
of deposits.<BR>>><BR>>>The difference between the
quantity of reserves and<BR>>>the quantity of deposits is
inevitably bank created<BR>>>credit, whatever you want to
call it.<BR>>><BR>>>Loans create deposits; there's
no getting around
it.<BR>>><BR>>>Period.<BR>>><BR>>>What
you would have in reality is a system perhaps<BR>>>more
tightly regulated that the one we have today,
but<BR>>>still very much fractional
reserve.<BR>>><BR>>>Otherwise, no modern economy
could
function.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>---
John G Rawson <johngrawson@hotmail.com>
wrote:<BR>>><BR>>>Joe, surely you know the "line" of
the orthodox<BR>>>economists as well as I do. "All
inflation is a<BR>>>result of too much money ....". They
admit to the<BR>>>phenomenon of cost push inflation, but
then proceed to<BR>>>ignore it. Even now, when we have
inflated prices<BR>>>caused by high oil costs, our RB (and
I think others)<BR>>>are considering the ridiculous remedy
of raising<BR>>>interest rates to control the volume of
money in<BR>>>crculation. But, of course, increased
interest rates<BR>>>tend to increase bank earnings, and
the central banks<BR>>>tend to serve the banks, not the
nations.<BR>>><BR>>>But apart from all these asides,
what I am looking<BR>>>for, IF we decide to take away from
the banks the<BR>>>right to create our money, (as the
Movement has<BR>>>preached loudly in this country from
when I was a<BR>>>child), HOW can we do
it?<BR>>><BR>>>And despite some opinions, obviously
it CAN NOT be<BR>>>done by manipulating reserve ratios,
which, when<BR>>>applied, relate to deposits, not
advances. (For once<BR>>>I am trying to be very precise,
for the benefit of<BR>>>those who persist in avoiding the
main point and<BR>>>picking up side issues.) I still think
the Hattersley<BR>>>(apologies for previous mis-spelling)
approach is the<BR>>>only reasonable one I have
encountered yet.<BR>>><BR>>>Regards, John
R.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>__________________________________<BR>>>Yahoo!
FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one
click.<BR>>>http://farechase.yahoo.com<;BR>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>Some
introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list
<BR>>>are
at<BR>>>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<;BR>>>You're
subscribed to this list with the email
<BR>>>hattersleyjm@interbaun.com<BR>>>For more
information, visit
<BR>>>http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit<;BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>--<BR>>>No
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