| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] "The Ownership Conference": Saturday 19th November 2005 | | Date: | Friday, November 18, 2005 21:27:02 (-0700) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <hattersleyjm @.........com>
|
Jim -
The money comes from the rents that the landowner charges to his tenants, or
is a tax on the value of the natural resources that land ownership makes
available. This is a simple redistribution of an existing money supply, and
of course does not relate to the overall problem that Douglas identifies.
But I do believe that, just as the "Monopoly of Credit" puts a publicly
created asset (the nation's credit) in private and monopolistic hands, so
the enclosure of common lands, and the conversion of a civilization into
classes of landowners (rich) and tenants (poor), is also the monopolization
of an asset given value by the community, and as such is to be resisted.
In English economic history, note the "sturdy beggars" of Elizabethan times,
the result of enclosure of common lands: the depopulation of the Scottish
Highlands, again the result of enclosures by landlords, and the Irish potato
famine - all of these leading to emigration by those who had to pay rent to
places where free land was still available. In Canada, note the poverty
imposed on the first nations as the white man moved onto their hunting
grounds, and they were put on "reserves". Ownership of land is a source of
unearned income, and as such, some way of fair distribution of this income
is justified.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim" <jschroeder@shaw.ca>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] "The Ownership Conference": Saturday 19th
November 2005
> Hi Martin:
>
> The only problem that I forsee if the proceeds are used to pay a dividend
> is where does the money come from? The asset worth $1,000,000 is not
> $1,000,000 in money.
>
> Jim
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Hattersley" <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 4:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] "The Ownership Conference": Saturday 19th
> November 2005
>
>
>> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>> Mime-Version: 1.0
>> Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
>> boundary="=======AVGMAIL-437D12EA00F9======="
>>
>> --=======AVGMAIL-437D12EA00F9=======
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>>
>> What, though, if the proceeds of such a tax were used to finance a =
>> dividend payment to all?
>>
>> Martin Hattersley
>> 1970-10123-99 St. Edmonton AB Canada
>> Phone (780)423-2081; Fax (780)425-5247
>> e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca;
>> hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> From: Jim=20
>> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 8:52 AM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] "The Ownership Conference": Saturday 19th =
>> November 2005
>>
>>
>> Hi Martin:
>>
>> I don't think it makes a difference whether it's a single tax based on =
>> percentage of site value, or a death duty. I think the important point =
>> is that you never tax any asset, because there is a difference between =
>> an asset (i.e. land) valued at $1,000,000 and actually having =
>> $1,000,000. The government will not accept land in payment for taxes; =
>> they will only accept money. And I think what will happen as a result =
>> of taxing any asset is explained aptly by Douglas. I think there will =
>> be a real wealth transfer from the poor to the rich, and from =
>> individuals to the state.
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Jim
>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> From: Martin Hattersley=20
>> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 8:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] "The Ownership Conference": Saturday =
>> 19th November 2005
>>
>>
>> That's an interesting quote - but my understanding of George was =
>> that his main remedy was a "single tax" based on a percentage of site =
>> value, rather than a Capital Levy which Douglas is discussing in this =
>> passage (and which, through Death Duties in particular, really did =
>> decimate the Stately Homes of England).
>>
>> Martin Hattersley
>> 1970-10123-99 St.,=20
>> EDMONTON AB CANADA
>> Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
>> e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> From: Jim=20
>> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 9:43 AM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] "The Ownership Conference": Saturday =
>> 19th November 2005
>>
>>
>> Hi Jock:
>>
>> You're a Georgist aren't you?
>>
>> I will quote Douglas from "Credit-Power and Democracy":
>>
>> CHAPTER VII
>>
>> ANOTHER of the cliches to which the official Labour organisations =
>> have committed themselves is that which goes by the name of the Capital =
>> Levy" in its various forms. It is so superficially familiar to everyone =
>> interested in these matters that no extended description of it is =
>> necessary; with variations it may be described as a graduated and =
>> ostensibly non-recurring tax on the money-value of individual property, =
>> real and personal, such value being estimated, not by its earning power,
>> =
>> but on some basis such as market price or expert estimation.
>>
>> At first sight such a levy is an attractive expedient to a party =
>> concerned with the flagrant disparity in worldly circumstances to which"
>> =
>> Capitalism" has at the moment brought us. If we can believe that there =
>> is a fixed amount of wealth in the world, and we see, as we do, that =
>> some have the good things of life while many have hardly the =
>> necessaries, it would appear an easy path to greater "justice" to take =
>> some of the "wealth" off the fortunate ones, even thongh you do not =
>> directly give it to the remainder. Let us examine the project more =
>> closely, therefore.
>>
>> The law recognises two main classes of capital: "real"-'i.e., =
>> land, houses, etc.; and "personal "-i.e., stocks and shares, cash, etc.,
>> =
>> 'which latter are ultimately claims to some sort of "real" property. =
>> That is to say, ultimately all property of any kind or description is a =
>> claim on realty.
>>
>> Now, imagine all money values above, say, =A35,000 held by =
>> individuals to be subjected to a capital levy. 'What actually happens '?
>> =
>> The levy, remember, is on individuals by the "State." The State has no =
>> concrete use for realty; it does not, broadly speaking, administer =
>> productive undertakings; consequently what it requires is a transfer of =
>> credit which' it can apply say, to tho reduction of the National Debt, =
>> which in itself is an agency for distributing purchasing- power.
>>
>> Now, however steeply you graduate a tax it must leave some men =
>> "richer" than others. Remembering this, consider the course of events =
>> when the tax is collected. The owner of land has to sell to "raise" the =
>> money for the tax. Who buys that land? Similarly, the owner of stocks =
>> and money parts with these. Who gets them ~ There are two answers.
>>
>> If the titles to the land or shares are thrown on the market =
>> together there will be a slump in "values" which will affect not only =
>> those who are taxed but those who are not taxed, in so far as they have =
>> any possessions other than money. At first sight this seems a desirable =
>> result, but on further consideration it will be seen that as the =
>> National Debt. is a money-debt, not a "realty" debt, such a slump in =
>> values increases the real Weight of the debt, because it requires a =
>> larger transfer of property at the lower price to liquidate a unit =
>> quantity of it. Since, as we have agreed, this transfer of actual =
>> property cannot be to the State in propria persona, it must be from =
>> persons with less money to persons with more money; and the greater the =
>> fall in yalues, the greater would be this transfer of real wealth from =
>> the less rich to the more rich. That is one possible answer. But there =
>> is a modification of this process possible. In order to avoid the fall =
>> in values that the liquidation of large blocks of securities would =
>> entail, the banks would be besieged for overdrafts withwhich to meet the
>> =
>> cans of the levy. Which class of applicants would receive preference in =
>> this scramble for credit-issue ~ Undoubtedly those whose prospect of =
>> repayment seemed to rest on the surest foundation; and, unless the =
>> previous arguments have failed of their purpose, it will be plain that =
>> whatever costs may be incurred by a produccr (who controls a market can
>> =
>> be recoupcd by him in prices from the consumer. Consequently, the banks =
>> would extend credit most readily to those whose power of price-making =
>> gave assurance of their ability to collect the levy, in so far as it =
>> affected them, from the public, together with the bank's interest on the
>> =
>> loan. Such persons would not only not have to part with any property, =
>> but would probably be found in a position of commanding advantage from =
>> which to acquire the property thrown on the market by their less =
>> fortunate=B7 neighbours-a result which, though differing slightly in =
>> method results in the same conclusion as in the previous case: that =
>> instead of such a levy being a transfer from the rich to the poor it =
>> ,becomes a transfer from the consume; to the price-maker and the =
>> credit-issuer.
>>
>> This is another way of stating the theorem on which stress has =
>> previously been laid in these pages. Under the existing economic =
>> arrangements, industry cannot be carried on unless the price of an =
>> article includes all the costs - ie dispensations of =
>> purchasing-power-which have been incurred during its production. If a =
>> cost is not included in the price, then the pricemaker becomes poorer, =
>> and eventually goes out of business. You cannot tax a =
>> capitalist-producer effectively because his existence as a producer =
>> depends on his ability to pass on any expense incurred to the consnmer. =
>> And it will be admitted by any unprejudiccd observer that no excessive =
>> reluctance to avail himself of this privilege is: noticeable in the =
>> behaviour of the a average entrepreneur.
>>
>> It is, however, possible to attack the Capital Levy on more =
>> general grounds also, if it be realised that the situation with which we
>> =
>> are faced is only accentuated by and not fundamentally due to the =
>> destruction of war. If the economic system under which we are working is
>> =
>> a sound system, then it is a flagrant "injustice" that such persons as =
>> do well out of it should be penalised; and if it is unsound, as it is, =
>> then the Labour Party, which clear;y regards itself as the sole =
>> political concessionnire of justice, should be too highminded to believe
>> =
>> that an unjust system is improved by ,working it unjustly.
>>
>> The cnpitalist system is tottering to its fall, but, like the =
>> Bolshevik Government, which (according to official communiques) began to
>> =
>> totter at its birth, and has continued to totter until it has infected =
>> half the world with its congenital instability, it may carryon for a =
>> long while, if its opponents obligingly dcmonstrate at short intervals =
>> their inability to supplant it by something better."
>>
>> (Credit-Power and Democracy Pge. 69-76)
>>
>>
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> From: Jock Coats=20
>> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 4:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] "The Ownership Conference": Saturday =
>> 19th November 2005
>>
>>
>> Oi!
>>
>>
>> I'm no socialist...:)=20
>>
>>
>> Do you think I'll be training some?
>>
>>
>> Jock
>>
>>
>> On 14 Nov 2005, at 21:26, Jim wrote:
>>
>>
>> It seems Mr. Douglas was absolutely correct about the London =
>> School of Economics being the training ground for socialists.
>>
>> Jim
>> "From Ownership into Stewardship"
>> "Private Property may not actually be theft
>> - but it has some pretty nasty habits!"
>>
>> The contributions will include:
>> Jock Coates: Community Land Trusts
>> --
>> Jock Coats, Oxfordshire Community Land Trusts,
>> jock.coats@oclt.org.uk=20
>> http://www.oclt.org.uk/=20
>> c/o Wardens' Lodgings, Flat 1e Block J, Morrell Hall, OXFORD, =
>> OX3 0FF
>> Mobile: 07769 695767
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email jschroeder@shaw.ca
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>
>>
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>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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>> You're subscribed to this list with the email jschroeder@shaw.ca
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
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>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are =
>> at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email jschroeder@shaw.ca
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>
>>
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>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.3/174 - Release Date: =
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>>
>> ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C5EB94.6B658670
>> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>> <HTML><HEAD>
>> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>> charset=3Diso-8859-1">
>> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=3DGENERATOR>
>> <STYLE></STYLE>
>> </HEAD>
>> <BODY=20
>> style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
>> khtml-line-break: after-white-space"=20
>> bgColor=3D#ffffff>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What, though, if the proceeds of such a
>> =
>> tax were=20
>> used to finance a dividend payment to all?</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><BR>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St. Edmonton AB =
>> Canada<BR>Phone=20
>> (780)423-2081; Fax (780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A=20
>> href=3D"mailto:jmartinh@shaw.ca">jmartinh@shaw.ca</A>;<BR><A=20
>> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <DIV> </DIV>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
>> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
>> <DIV=20
>> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> <A title=3Djschroeder@shaw.ca =
>> href=3D"mailto:jschroeder@shaw.ca">Jim</A> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
>> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 17, =
>> 2005 8:52=20
>> AM</DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
>> "The=20
>> Ownership Conference": Saturday 19th November 2005</DIV>
>> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Martin:</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't think it makes a difference =
>> whether it's=20
>> a single tax based on percentage of site value, or a death duty. =
>> I think=20
>> the important point is that you never tax any asset, because there is =
>> a=20
>> difference between an asset (i.e. land) valued at $1,000,000 and =
>> actually=20
>> having $1,000,000. The government will not accept land in =
>> payment=20
>> for taxes; they will only accept money. And I think what will =
>> happen as=20
>> a result of taxing any asset is explained aptly by Douglas. I =
>> think=20
>> there will be a real wealth transfer from the poor to the rich, and =
>> from=20
>> individuals to the state.</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Take care,</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jim</FONT></DIV>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
>> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
>> <DIV=20
>> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> <A title=3Dhattersleyjm@interbaun.com=20
>> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> =
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
>> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> =
>> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 16, =
>> 2005 8:37=20
>> PM</DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
>> "The=20
>> Ownership Conference": Saturday 19th November 2005</DIV>
>> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>That's an interesting quote - but my =
>> understanding of=20
>> George was that his main remedy was a "single tax" based on a =
>> percentage of=20
>> site value, rather than a Capital Levy which Douglas is discussing =
>> in this=20
>> passage (and which, through Death Duties in particular, really did =
>> decimate=20
>> the Stately Homes of England).</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., =
>> <BR>EDMONTON AB=20
>> CANADA<BR>Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A=20
>> =
>> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
>> </FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
>> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV=20
>> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> <A title=3Djschroeder@shaw.ca =
>> href=3D"mailto:jschroeder@shaw.ca">Jim</A>=20
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
>> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> =
>> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November =
>> 16, 2005=20
>> 9:43 AM</DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
>> "The=20
>> Ownership Conference": Saturday 19th November 2005</DIV>
>> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Jock:</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You're a Georgist aren't =
>> you?</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I will quote Douglas from =
>> "Credit-Power and=20
>> Democracy":</FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>
>> <P align=3Dleft>CHAPTER </FONT><B><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
>> size=3D4>VII</P></B></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
>> size=3D1>
>> <P align=3Dleft>ANOTHER </FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">of =
>> the cliches=20
>> to which the official Labour organisations have committed =
>> themselves is=20
>> that which goes by the name of the Capital Levy" in its various =
>> forms.=20
>> <U>It is so superficially familiar to everyone interested in these =
>> matters=20
>> that no extended description of it is necessary; with variations =
>> it may be=20
>> described as a graduated and ostensibly non-recurring tax on the=20
>> money-value of individual property, real and personal, such value =
>> being=20
>> estimated, not by its earning power, but on some basis such as =
>> market=20
>> price or expert estimation.</U></P>
>> <P align=3Dleft>At first sight such a levy is an attractive =
>> expedient to a=20
>> party concerned with the flagrant disparity in worldly =
>> circumstances to=20
>> which" Capitalism" has at the moment brought us. If we can believe =
>> that=20
>> there is a fixed amount of wealth in the world, and we see, as we =
>> do, that=20
>> some have <FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">the good things of =
>> life while=20
>> many have hardly the necessaries, it would appear an easy path to =
>> greater=20
>> "justice" to take some of the "wealth" off the fortunate ones, =
>> even thongh=20
>> you do not directly give it to the remainder. Let us examine the =
>> project=20
>> more closely, therefore.</P>
>> <P align=3Dleft>The law recognises two main classes of =
>> capital:=20
>> "real"-'i.e., land, houses, etc.; and "personal </FONT><I><FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>"-i.e., </I></FONT><FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman">stocks and shares, cash, etc., 'which =
>> latter are=20
>> ultimately claims to some sort of "real" property. That is to say, =
>>
>> ultimately all property of any kind or description is a claim on=20
>> realty.</P></FONT>
>> <P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT =
>> face=3DArial>N</FONT>ow,=20
>> imagine all money values above, say, =A35,000 held by individuals =
>> to be=20
>> subjected to a capital levy. 'What actually happens '? The levy, =
>> remember,=20
>> is </FONT><I><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">on </I></FONT><FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman">individuals </FONT><I><FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman">by </I></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
>> Roman">the=20
>> "State." The State has no concrete use for realty; it does not, =
>> broadly=20
>> speaking, administer productive undertakings; consequently what it =
>>
>> requires is a transfer of credit which' it can apply say, to tho =
>> reduction=20
>> of the National Debt, which in itself is an agency for =
>> distributing=20
>> purch</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">asing- power.</P>
>> <P align=3Dleft>Now, however steeply you graduate a <FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman">tax it must leave some men "richer" than =
>> others.=20
>> Remembering this, consider the course of events when the tax is =
>> collected.=20
>> The owner of land has to sell to "raise" the money for the tax.=20
>> </FONT><I><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Who buys that land?=20
>> </I></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Similarly, the owner of =
>> stocks and=20
>> money parts with these. Who gets them ~ There are two answers.</P>
>> <P align=3Dleft>If the titles to the land or shares are thrown on =
>> the market=20
>> together there will be a slump in "values" which will affect not =
>> only=20
>> those who are taxed but those who are not taxed, in so far as they =
>> have=20
>> any possessions other than money. At</FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
>> size=3D3>=20
>> </FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">first sight this seems a =
>> desirable=20
>> result, but on further consideration it will be seen that as the =
>> National=20
>> Debt. is a money-debt, not a "realty" debt, such a slump in values =
>>
>> </FONT><I><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>increases the =
>> real Weight of=20
>> the debt, </I></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">because it =
>> requires a=20
>> larger transfer of property at the lower price to liquidate a unit =
>>
>> quantity of it. Since, as we have agreed, this transfer of actual =
>> property=20
>> cannot be to the State </FONT><I><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
>> size=3D3>in=20
>> propria persona, </I></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">it must =
>> be from=20
>> persons with less money to persons with more money; and the =
>> greater the=20
>> fall in yalues, the greater would be this <FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman">transfer of real wealth from the less =
>> rich to the=20
>> more rich. That is one possible answer. But there is a =
>> modification of=20
>> this process possible. In order to avoid the fall in values that =
>> the=20
>> liquidation of large blocks of securities would entail, the banks =
>> would be=20
>> besieged for overdrafts withwhich to meet the cans of the levy. =
>> Which=20
>> class of applicants would receive preference in this scramble for=20
>> credit-issue ~ Undoubtedly those whose prospect of repayment =
>> seemed to=20
>> rest on the surest foundation; and, unless the previous arguments =
>> have=20
>> failed of their purpose, it will be plain that </FONT><I><FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>whatever costs may be incurred =
>> </FONT><FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman">by </FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
>> size=3D3>a=20
>> produccr (who </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
>> size=3D1> </FONT><FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>controls a market can be =
>> recoupcd by him in=20
>> prices from the consumer. </I></FONT><FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman">Consequently, the banks would extend =
>> credit most=20
>> readily to those whose power of price-making gave assurance of =
>> their=20
>> ability to collect the levy, in so far as it affected them, from =
>> the=20
>> public, together with the bank's interest on the loan. Such =
>> persons would=20
>> not only not have to part with any property, but would probably be =
>> found=20
>> in a position of commanding advantage from which to acquire =
>> <FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman">the property thrown on the market by =
>> their less=20
>> fortunate=B7 neighbours-a result which, though differing slightly =
>> in method=20
>> results in the same conclusion as in the previous case: that =
>> instead of=20
>> such a levy being a transfer from the rich to the poor it ,becomes =
>> a=20
>> transfer from the consume; to the price-maker and the =
>> credit-issuer.</P>
>> <P align=3Dleft>This is another way of stating the theorem on =
>> which stress=20
>> has previously been laid in these pages. Under the existing =
>> economic=20
>> arrangements, industry cannot be carried on unless the price of an =
>> article=20
>> includes all the costs - ie</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
>> size=3D1> </FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">dispensations =
>> of=20
>> purchasing-power-which have been incurred during its production. =
>> If a cost=20
>> is not included in the price, then the pricemaker becomes poorer, =
>> and=20
>> eventually goes out of business. </FONT><I><FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman">You cannot tax a </FONT><FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>capitalist-producer effectively =
>> because his=20
>> existence as a producer depends on his ability to pass on any =
>> expense=20
>> incurred to the consnmer. </I></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
>> Roman">And it=20
>> will be admitted by any unprejudiccd observer that no </FONT><FONT =
>>
>> face=3D"Times New Roman">excessive reluctance to avail himself of =
>> this=20
>> privilege is: noticeable in the behaviour of the a average=20
>> entrepreneur.</FONT></P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman">
>> <P align=3Dleft>It is, however, possible to attack the Capital =
>> Levy on more=20
>> general grounds also, if it be realised that the situation with =
>> which we=20
>> are faced is only accentuated by and not fundamentally due to the=20
>> destruction of war. If the economic system under which we are =
>> working is a=20
>> sound system, then it is a flagrant "injustice" that such persons =
>> as do=20
>> well out of it should be penalised; and if it is unsound, as it =
>> is, then=20
>> the Labour Party, which clear;y regards itself as the sole =
>> political=20
>> concessionnire of justice, should be too highminded to believe =
>> that an=20
>> unjust system is improved by ,working it unjustly.</P>
>> <P align=3Dleft>The cnpitalist system is tottering to its fall, =
>> but, like=20
>> the Bolshevik Government, which (according to official =
>> communiques) began=20
>> to totter at its birth, and has continued to totter until it has =
>> infected=20
>> half the world with its congenital instability, it may carryon for =
>> a long=20
>> while, if its opponents obligingly dcmonstrate at short intervals =
>> their=20
>> inability to supplant it</FONT><FONT face=3DArial> =
>> </FONT><FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>by </FONT><FONT=20
>> face=3D"Times New Roman">something better."</FONT></P>
>> <P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> size=3D2>(Credit-Power and Democracy Pge. 69-76)</FONT></FONT></P>
>> <P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> size=3D2></FONT></FONT> </P>
>> <P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT face=3DArial =
>> size=3D2>Take=20
>> care,</FONT></FONT></P>
>> <P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> =
>> size=3D2>Jim</FONT></P></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
>> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV=20
>> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> <A title=3Djock.coats@oxfordshirecommunitylandtrusts.org.uk=20
>> =
>> href=3D"mailto:jock.coats@oxfordshirecommunitylandtrusts.org.uk">Jock=20
>> Coats</A> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
>> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> =
>> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>=20
>> </DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November =
>> 16, 2005=20
>> 4:21 AM</DIV>
>> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
>> [socialcredit] "The=20
>> Ownership Conference": Saturday 19th November 2005</DIV>
>> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> <DIV>Oi!</DIV>
>> <DIV><BR class=3Dkhtml-block-placeholder></DIV>I'm no =
>> socialist...:)=20
>> <DIV><BR class=3Dkhtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
>> <DIV>Do you think I'll be training some?</DIV>
>> <DIV><BR class=3Dkhtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
>> <DIV>Jock</DIV>
>> <DIV><BR>
>> <DIV>
>> <DIV>On 14 Nov 2005, at 21:26, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR=20
>> class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
>> style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; =
>> TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: =
>> normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; =
>> border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
>> apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2">
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
>> class=3DApple-style-span=20
>> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It seems Mr. =
>> Douglas was=20
>> absolutely correct about the London School of Economics being =
>> the=20
>> training ground for socialists.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
>> class=3DApple-style-span=20
>> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: =
>> Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
>> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
>> 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#da456b =
>> size=3D+4><B=20
>> style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 37px; COLOR: =
>> rgb(218,69,107); FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"><SPAN=20
>> class=3DApple-style-span=20
>> style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 37px; COLOR: =
>> rgb(218,69,107); FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">"From=20
>> Ownership into Stewardship"</SPAN></B></FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 =
>> size=3D+3><I=20
>> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 24px; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: =
>> Times New Roman"><SPAN=20
>> class=3DApple-style-span=20
>> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 24px; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: =
>> Times New Roman">"Private=20
>> Property may not actually be theft</SPAN><BR=20
>> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 24px; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: =
>> Times New Roman"><SPAN=20
>> class=3DApple-style-span=20
>> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 24px; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: =
>> Times New Roman">-=20
>> but it has some pretty nasty habits!"</SPAN></I></FONT><FONT =
>>
>> face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D+2><BR=20
>> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18px; FONT-FAMILY: Times New =
>> Roman"></FONT><FONT=20
>> color=3D#000000 size=3D+2></FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D+1><B=20
>> style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 14px"><SPAN=20
>> class=3DApple-style-span=20
>> style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 14px">The =
>> contributions will=20
>> include:</SPAN></B></FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D+1><I=20
>> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14px; FONT-STYLE: italic"><B=20
>> style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 14px; FONT-STYLE: =
>> italic"><SPAN=20
>> class=3DApple-style-span=20
>> style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 14px; FONT-STYLE: =
>> italic">Jock=20
>> Coates:</SPAN></B><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
>> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14px; FONT-STYLE: italic"> Community =
>> Land=20
>> =
>> Trusts</SPAN></I></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
>> <DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
>> style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; =
>> TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: =
>> normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; =
>> border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
>> apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2">
>> <DIV>
>> <DIV>--</DIV>
>> <DIV>Jock Coats, Oxfordshire Community Land Trusts,</DIV>
>> <DIV><A=20
>> =
>> href=3D"mailto:jock.coats@oclt.org.uk">jock.coats@oclt.org.uk</A> </=
>> DIV>
>> <DIV><A=20
>> =
>> href=3D"http://www.oclt.org.uk";>http://www.oclt.org.uk</A>/ </DIV>
>> <DIV>c/o Wardens' Lodgings, Flat 1e Block J, Morrell Hall, =
>> OXFORD, OX3=20
>> 0FF</DIV>
>> <DIV>Mobile: 07769 695767</DIV></DIV>
>> <DIV><BR class=3Dkhtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
>> <DIV><BR class=3Dkhtml-block-placeholder></DIV><BR=20
>> class=3DApple-interchange-newline></SPAN></DIV><BR></DIV>
>> =
>> <P><PRE>-----------------------------------------------------------------=
>> ----
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email jschroeder@shaw.ca
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> <P></P></PRE>
>> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
>> =
>> <P><PRE>-----------------------------------------------------------------=
>> ----
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> <P></P></PRE>
>> <P>
>> <P>
>> <HR>
>>
>> <P></P>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG =
>> Free=20
>> Edition.<BR>Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.3/173 - =
>> Release=20
>> Date: 16/11/2005<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
>> =
>> <P><PRE>-----------------------------------------------------------------=
>> ----
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email jschroeder@shaw.ca
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> <P></P></PRE>
>> <P>
>> <P>
>> <HR>
>>
>> <P></P>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>Checked by AVG =
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>> Release Date:=20
>> =
>> 16/11/2005<BR><BR><BR>---------------------------------------------------=
>> ------------------<BR>Some=20
>> introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are=20
>> at<BR>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<;BR>You're =
>> subscribed to=20
>> this list with the email jschroeder@shaw.ca<BR>For more information, =
>> visit=20
>> http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit<;BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
>> =
>> <P><PRE>-----------------------------------------------------------------=
>> ----
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> <P></P></PRE>
>> <P>
>> <P>
>> <HR>
>>
>> <P></P>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG Free =
>>
>> Edition.<BR>Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.3/174 - Release =
>> Date:=20
>> 11/17/2005<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>>
>> ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C5EB94.6B658670--
>> --=======AVGMAIL-437D12EA00F9=======
>> Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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>>
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.3/174 - Release Date:
>> 11/17/2005
>>
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>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>
>
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.3/174 - Release Date: 17/11/2005
>
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