| Subject: | Fw: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2 | | Date: | Sunday, December 18, 2005 19:16:11 (-0700) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <hattersleyjm @.........com>
|
From: Martin Hattersley
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
My own view is that, far from being an economic downer, capital investment
financed by savings is in fact a very sound way of going about things.
If we spend, say four years in building the "Titanic", we distribute incomes to
workers and suppliers for that four year period, so withdrawing other goods and
services from the market, without putting any product of value on the market. If
financed by new credit, that is an inflationary thing to do. If financed by
savings, it simply means that consumer buying power in total has been
redistributed from the investor to the workers and suppliers, with no
inflationary effect.
The moment that the "Titanic" sails (and assuming that it doen't sink on its
maiden voyage), there's increased goods and services available to the public
(including laid-off shipbuilders), which is every justification for increasing
the money supply through a debt free National Dividend.
If the "Titanic" sinks, of course, assuming it has been financed through
savings, all that happens is that its investors (or their insurers) lose their
money.
Comments?
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: John G Rawson
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
Alright. Let's pursue this further.
I have (yes, more than once) in my small flower production business, developed
a new calla (Zantedeschia vars.) which may sweep the market, or may simply drop
out of ken because of changing fashions. Or the tubers may all turn out to be
"rotters" and nearly all simply disappear in their third season. I need
about $10,000 (minimum) to propagate it in large numbers sufficient to make some
sort of impact. And I am not allowed to risk my own capital.
Do I go to one of the banks and demand, by right of being a citizen, a loan of
this amount? If not, how the blazes to I persuade my bank manager to fund this
very risky project? Must I mortgage my property, which surely would be
tantamount to using savings?
Moral: Douglas' analysis of the economic system was absolutely brilliant.
His antisemitism, though very fashionable at the time was at the very least
irresponsible. Where, in the spectrum of his dicta do we draw the line; at this
last point, or a bit sooner in relation to some of his ideas in between? I
simply don't buy the superstitious approach of many Scoial Crediters who believe
that he must be treated as completely infallible; that his pronouncements should
not be subjected to reasonable analysis, particularly in view of changed
circumstances. (We no longer live in slump time, for example.)
This ossified and unreasoning approach is one of our weaknesses, every bit as
dangerous as subtle movement away from his obviously valid ideas.
Bill, if you do close down, please accept my thanks for riding herd on these
discussions to date. I'm sure I have annoyed a few people in the process, but I
have gained an immense amount of valuable information from it, as well as sorting
out my own ideas for practical use.
Regards. John R.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Triumphofthepast@aol.com
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:08:57 EST
"That the credits required to finance production shall be supplied, not
from savings, but be new credits relating to new production."
Both John and Joe suggest this means "the aforementioned credits required to
LIQUIDATE production." I don't see how it could. Worse, he would now be saying
that savings SHALL NOT be used to buy consumer goods and services!
Michael
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<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 17, 2005 9:08 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>My own view is that, far from being an economic downer,
capital investment financed by savings is in fact a very sound way of going
about things.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If we spend, say four years in building the "Titanic", we
distribute incomes to workers and suppliers for that four year period, so
withdrawing other goods and services from the market, without putting any
product of value on the market. If financed by new credit, that is an
inflationary thing to do. If financed by savings, it simply means that consumer
buying power in total has been redistributed from the investor to the workers
and suppliers, with no inflationary effect.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The moment that the "Titanic" sails (and assuming that it
doen't sink on its maiden voyage), there's increased goods and services
available to the public (including laid-off shipbuilders), which is every
justification for increasing the money supply through a debt free National
Dividend.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the "Titanic" sinks, of course, assuming it has been
financed through savings, all that happens is that its investors (or their
insurers) lose their money.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Comments?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB CANADA<BR>Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=johngrawson@hotmail.com href="mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com">John G
Rawson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:12
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [socialcredit] Swanwick
2</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Alright. Let's pursue this further.</P>
<P>I have (yes, more than once) in my small flower production business,
developed a new calla (Zantedeschia vars.) which may sweep the market, or may
simply drop out of ken because of changing fashions. Or the tubers may
all turn out to be "rotters" and nearly all simply disappear in their third
season. I need about $10,000 (minimum) to propagate it in large numbers
sufficient to make some sort of impact. And I am not allowed to risk my
own capital.</P>
<P>Do I go to one of the banks and demand, by right of being a citizen, a loan
of this amount? If not, how the blazes to I persuade my bank manager to
fund this very risky project? Must I mortgage my property, which surely
would be tantamount to using savings? </P>
<P>Moral: Douglas' analysis of the economic system was absolutely
brilliant. His antisemitism, though very fashionable at the time was at
the very least irresponsible. Where, in the spectrum of his dicta do we draw
the line; at this last point, or a bit sooner in relation to some of his
ideas in between? I simply don't buy the superstitious approach of many
Scoial Crediters who believe that he must be treated as completely
infallible; that his pronouncements should not be subjected to
reasonable analysis, particularly in view of changed circumstances. (We no
longer live in slump time, for example.)</P>
<P>This ossified and unreasoning approach is one of our weaknesses, every bit
as dangerous as subtle movement away from his obviously valid ideas.</P>
<P>Bill, if you do close down, please accept my thanks for riding herd on
these discussions to date. I'm sure I have annoyed a few people in
the process, but I have gained an immense amount of valuable information from
it, as well as sorting out my own ideas for practical use.</P>
<P>Regards. <FONT color=#339933 size=4>John R.</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px solid;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>
From: <I>Triumphofthepast@aol.com</I><BR>Reply-To:
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>To:
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>Subject: <I>[socialcredit] Swanwick
2</I><BR>Date: <I>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:08:57 EST</I><BR><BR><FONT
face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face="GoudyOlSt BT" size=2><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">"That
the credits required to finance production shall be supplied, not from
savings, but be new credits relating to new production."</FONT><FONT
lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face="GoudyOlSt BT" color=#000000
size=2></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face="Goudy Old Style" color=#000000
size=3>Both John and Joe suggest this means "the aforementioned credits
required to LIQUIDATE production." I don't see how it could.
Worse, he would now be saying that savings SHALL NOT be used to buy consumer
goods and services!<BR><BR>Michael<BR></FONT><FONT lang=0
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face="GoudyOlSt BT" color=#000000
size=2><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
face="GoudyOlSt BT" color=#000000 size=2><BR><BR></FONT>
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You're subscribed to this list with the email johngrawson@hotmail.com
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