In-Reply-To: <BAY21-F261624A43EA20204142C6BD3E0@phx.gbl>
I think you are right to say that some things were not well spelled out
about the compensating ability of control of the issuance of money under a
Socred system.
All these things, like savings, will take some time for people to have
sufficient confidence in the new system to ever abandon, just as with
interest payments.
One of the worst sources of arguments against the proposals we make has
been reference to the savings of the proverbial "little old lady", savings
often being the source of her income, often fixed.
It comes hard for some to change the thinking of generations about
"thrift".
Ken.
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From: "John G Rawson" <johngrawson@hotmail.com>
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
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Subject: RE: Fw: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
X-Envelope-To: kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk
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<html><div style='background-color:'><P>I think it is fairly clear that
Douglas, at the time he was writing, saw savings as reductions of the
purchasing power of the people, and therefore condemned them. Why he
did this instead of seeing them as a reason to put more money into
circulation per the other means he envisaged is a mystery to me.</P>
<P>Our first Labour Govt. saw it the same way, encouraging people to spend
and promising to look after them "from the cradle to the grave". </P>
<P>Times change and I agree with you. </P>
<P>Regards. <FONT color=#339933 size=4>John
R.</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>
From: <I>"Martin Hattersley"
<hattersleyjm@interbaun.com></I><BR>Reply-To:
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>To:
<I><socialcredit@elistas.com></I><BR>Subject: <I>Fw: [socialcredit]
Swanwick 2</I><BR>Date: <I>Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:16:11 -0700</I><BR><BR>
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<STYLE>
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<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 17, 2005 9:08 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>My own view is that, far from being an economic downer,
capital investment financed by savings is in fact a very sound way of
going about things.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If we spend, say four years in building the "Titanic",
we distribute incomes to workers and suppliers for that four year period,
so withdrawing other goods and services from the market, without putting
any product of value on the market. If financed by new credit, that is an
inflationary thing to do. If financed by savings, it simply means that
consumer buying power in total has been redistributed from the investor to
the workers and suppliers, with no inflationary effect.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The moment that the "Titanic" sails (and assuming that
it doen't sink on its maiden voyage), there's increased goods and services
available to the public (including laid-off shipbuilders), which is every
justification for increasing the money supply through a debt free National
Dividend.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the "Titanic" sinks, of course, assuming it has been
financed through savings, all that happens is that its investors (or their
insurers) lose their money.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Comments?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB
CANADA<BR>Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DI
V>
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MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=johngrawson@hotmail.com
href="mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com">John G Rawson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 15, 2005
3:12 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [socialcredit] Swanwick
2</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Alright. Let's pursue this further.</P>
<P>I have (yes, more than once) in my small flower production business,
developed a new calla (Zantedeschia vars.) which may sweep the market, or
may simply drop out of ken because of changing fashions. Or the
tubers may all turn out to be "rotters" and nearly all simply disappear in
their third season. I need about $10,000 (minimum) to propagate it in
large numbers sufficient to make some sort of impact. And I am not
allowed to risk my own capital.</P><P>Do I go to one of the banks and
demand, by right of being a citizen, a loan of this amount? If not,
how the blazes to I persuade my bank manager to fund this very risky
project? Must I mortgage my property, which surely would be
tantamount to using savings? </P><P>Moral: Douglas' analysis of the
economic system was absolutely brilliant. His antisemitism, though
very fashionable at the time was at the very least irresponsible. Where,
in the spectrum of his dicta do we draw the line; at this last
point, or a bit sooner in relation to some of his ideas in between?
I simply don't buy the superstitious approach of many Scoial Crediters who
believe that he must be treated as completely infallible; that his
pronouncements should not be subjected to reasonable analysis,
particularly in view of changed circumstances. (We no longer live in slump
time, for example.)</P>
<P>This ossified and unreasoning approach is one of our weaknesses, every
bit as dangerous as subtle movement away from his obviously valid
ideas.</P><P>Bill, if you do close down, please accept my thanks for
riding herd on these discussions to date. I'm sure I have
annoyed a few people in the process, but I have gained an immense amount
of valuable information from it, as well as sorting out my own ideas for
practical use.</P><P>Regards. <FONT color=#339933 size=4>John
R.</FONT></P><BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>
From: <I>Triumphofthepast@aol.com</I><BR>Reply-To:
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>To:
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>Subject: <I>[socialcredit] Swanwick
2</I><BR>Date: <I>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:08:57 EST</I><BR><BR><FONT
face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face="GoudyOlSt BT" size=2><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">"That the credits
required to finance production shall be supplied, not from savings, but be
new credits relating to new production."</FONT><FONT lang=0
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face="GoudyOlSt BT" color=#000000
size=2></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face="Goudy Old Style" color=#000000
size=3>Both John and Joe suggest this means "the aforementioned credits
required to LIQUIDATE production." I don't see how it could.
Worse, he would now be saying that savings SHALL NOT be used to buy
consumer goods and services!<BR><BR>Michael<BR></FONT><FONT lang=0
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face="GoudyOlSt BT" color=#000000
size=2><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
face="GoudyOlSt BT" color=#000000 size=2><BR><BR></FONT>
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