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Message 3236
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In-Reply-To: <007701c60444$89101e60$a123e5cf@martinh4>
Hi Martin.
I will have to look out your monograph on the building of Concorde,
remember that ?
For I think you have shifted your ground, with this post being no where
near as sound as that old writing of yours :-)
Savings are a withdrawal from purchasing power NOW, or from the past, not
when Concorde flies, or Titanic sails. Where will the money for the
tickets come from then ? The point I think you once made.
A National Dividend, or Citizens income changes the whole landscape.
Ken.
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Message-ID: <007701c60444$89101e60$a123e5cf@martinh4>
From: "Martin Hattersley" <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:16:11 -0700
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Subject: Fw: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
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From: Martin Hattersley=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
My own view is that, far from being an economic downer, capital =
investment financed by savings is in fact a very sound way of going =
about things.
If we spend, say four years in building the "Titanic", we distribute =
incomes to workers and suppliers for that four year period, so =
withdrawing other goods and services from the market, without putting =
any product of value on the market. If financed by new credit, that is =
an inflationary thing to do. If financed by savings, it simply means =
that consumer buying power in total has been redistributed from the =
investor to the workers and suppliers, with no inflationary effect.
The moment that the "Titanic" sails (and assuming that it doen't sink on =
its maiden voyage), there's increased goods and services available to =
the public (including laid-off shipbuilders), which is every =
justification for increasing the money supply through a debt free =
National Dividend.
If the "Titanic" sinks, of course, assuming it has been financed through =
savings, all that happens is that its investors (or their insurers) lose =
their money.
Comments?
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,=20
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: John G Rawson=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
Alright. Let's pursue this further.
I have (yes, more than once) in my small flower production business, =
developed a new calla (Zantedeschia vars.) which may sweep the market, =
or may simply drop out of ken because of changing fashions. Or the =
tubers may all turn out to be "rotters" and nearly all simply disappear =
in their third season. I need about $10,000 (minimum) to propagate it in =
large numbers sufficient to make some sort of impact. And I am not =
allowed to risk my own capital.
Do I go to one of the banks and demand, by right of being a citizen, a =
loan of this amount? If not, how the blazes to I persuade my bank =
manager to fund this very risky project? Must I mortgage my property, =
which surely would be tantamount to using savings?=20
Moral: Douglas' analysis of the economic system was absolutely =
brilliant. His antisemitism, though very fashionable at the time was at =
the very least irresponsible. Where, in the spectrum of his dicta do we =
draw the line; at this last point, or a bit sooner in relation to some =
of his ideas in between? I simply don't buy the superstitious approach =
of many Scoial Crediters who believe that he must be treated as =
completely infallible; that his pronouncements should not be subjected =
to reasonable analysis, particularly in view of changed circumstances. =
(We no longer live in slump time, for example.)
This ossified and unreasoning approach is one of our weaknesses, every =
bit as dangerous as subtle movement away from his obviously valid ideas.
Bill, if you do close down, please accept my thanks for riding herd on =
these discussions to date. I'm sure I have annoyed a few people in the =
process, but I have gained an immense amount of valuable information =
from it, as well as sorting out my own ideas for practical use.
Regards. John R.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
From: Triumphofthepast@aol.com
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:08:57 EST
"That the credits required to finance production shall be =
supplied, not from savings, but be new credits relating to new =
production."
Both John and Joe suggest this means "the aforementioned credits =
required to LIQUIDATE production." I don't see how it could. Worse, he =
would now be saying that savings SHALL NOT be used to buy consumer goods =
and services!
Michael
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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: =
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dhattersleyjm@interbaun.com=20
href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 17, 2005 9:08 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>My own view is that, far from being an economic =
downer,=20
capital investment financed by savings is in fact a very sound way of =
going=20
about things.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If we spend, say four years in building the =
"Titanic", we=20
distribute incomes to workers and suppliers for that four year period, =
so=20
withdrawing other goods and services from the market, without putting =
any=20
product of value on the market. If financed by new credit, that is an=20
inflationary thing to do. If financed by savings, it simply means that =
consumer=20
buying power in total has been redistributed from the investor to the =
workers=20
and suppliers, with no inflationary effect.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The moment that the "Titanic" sails (and assuming =
that it=20
doen't sink on its maiden voyage), there's increased goods and services=20
available to the public (including laid-off shipbuilders), which is =
every=20
justification for increasing the money supply through a debt free =
National=20
Dividend.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If the "Titanic" sinks, of course, assuming it has =
been=20
financed through savings, all that happens is that its investors (or =
their=20
insurers) lose their money.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Comments?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB =
CANADA<BR>Phone=20
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Djohngrawson@hotmail.com =
href=3D"mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com">John G=20
Rawson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 15, =
2005 3:12=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [socialcredit] =
Swanwick=20
2</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Alright. Let's pursue this further.</P>
<P>I have (yes, more than once) in my small flower production =
business,=20
developed a new calla (Zantedeschia vars.) which may sweep the market, =
or may=20
simply drop out of ken because of changing fashions. Or the =
tubers may=20
all turn out to be "rotters" and nearly all simply disappear in their =
third=20
season. I need about $10,000 (minimum) to propagate it in large =
numbers=20
sufficient to make some sort of impact. And I am not allowed to =
risk my=20
own capital.</P>
<P>Do I go to one of the banks and demand, by right of being a =
citizen, a loan=20
of this amount? If not, how the blazes to I persuade my bank =
manager to=20
fund this very risky project? Must I mortgage my property, which =
surely=20
would be tantamount to using savings? </P>
<P>Moral: Douglas' analysis of the economic system was =
absolutely=20
brilliant. His antisemitism, though very fashionable at the time =
was at=20
the very least irresponsible. Where, in the spectrum of his dicta do =
we draw=20
the line; at this last point, or a bit sooner in relation to =
some of his=20
ideas in between? I simply don't buy the superstitious approach =
of many=20
Scoial Crediters who believe that he must be treated as completely=20
infallible; that his pronouncements should not be subjected to=20
reasonable analysis, particularly in view of changed circumstances. =
(We no=20
longer live in slump time, for example.)</P>
<P>This ossified and unreasoning approach is one of our weaknesses, =
every bit=20
as dangerous as subtle movement away from his obviously valid =
ideas.</P>
<P>Bill, if you do close down, please accept my thanks for riding herd =
on=20
these discussions to date. I'm sure I have annoyed a few =
people in=20
the process, but I have gained an immense amount of valuable =
information from=20
it, as well as sorting out my own ideas for practical use.</P>
<P>Regards. <FONT color=3D#339933 size=3D4>John R.</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5
2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR color=3D#a0c6e5 SIZE=3D1>
From: <I>Triumphofthepast@aol.com</I><BR>Reply-To:=20
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>To:=20
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>Subject: <I>[socialcredit] =
Swanwick=20
2</I><BR>Date: <I>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:08:57 EST</I><BR><BR><FONT=20
face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3D"GoudyOlSt BT" =
size=3D2><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">"That=20
the credits required to finance production shall be supplied, not =
from=20
savings, but be new credits relating to new =
production."</FONT><FONT=20
lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3D"GoudyOlSt BT" =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3D"Goudy Old Style" =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D3>Both John and Joe suggest this means "the aforementioned =
credits=20
required to LIQUIDATE production." I don't see how it =
could. =20
Worse, he would now be saying that savings SHALL NOT be used to buy =
consumer=20
goods and services!<BR><BR>Michael<BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3D"GoudyOlSt BT" =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff"=20
face=3D"GoudyOlSt BT" color=3D#000000 size=3D2><BR><BR></FONT>
=
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