| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2 | | Date: | Wednesday, December 21, 2005 08:29:44 (+0000) | | From: | Timothy Carpenter <timbeau_hk @........uk>
|
Re: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
Dear Martin,
No ND: If investment is from savings the buying power is restored to the economy, for savings withdraws buying power. It is reflationary. If the time between saving and investing is short, then my guess is the impact is hardly felt. If the time is long, then we have suffered due to the withdrawal and grateful for the restoration, though damage has been done in the interim.
No ND: If the Titanic sails or sinks, the investment spent is in the pockets of ship workers, carpenters etc and has not left or been lost to the economy, but restored. What will have happened, though, if the Titanic sinks is that a future destination/vehicle of consumption will have been withdrawn, so preventing the investors from getting back their money from the economy via the earnings of customers buying tickets and not buying anything else (like a lampstand or shoes).
With ND: If the Titanic sails for 20 years, any increased liquidity in the economy caused by the spending of the savings in investment during construction would be sucked back from the economy with interest/gain to repay investors as part of ticket sales (the rest circulating via wages of the employees and suppliers). Now, over time as the Titanic is scrapped/written off/down, then my guess is the Nat Dividend should be adjusted back down (or more realistically the negative offset against a future increase due to be added as a result of some other worthy project) as the value of the assets in the economy reduces.
With ND: Not only do we have the money going back to the investors’ savings accounts, but that the ND is reduced (all things being equal) as the asset value reduces. First we get the increase in liquidity from investor spending and wages paid before tickets are ready to be sold, so we have in/reflation, then we get ND injection as the asset appears in the economy (i.e. When Titanic floats and is ready for business) as a SECOND boost, but as the ship ages and the investors are repaid the ND is reduced too, surely doubling the effect?
Tim
On 19/12/05 02:16, "Martin Hattersley" <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com> wrote:
From: Martin Hattersley <mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
My own view is that, far from being an economic downer, capital investment financed by savings is in fact a very sound way of going about things.
If we spend, say four years in building the "Titanic", we distribute incomes to workers and suppliers for that four year period, so withdrawing other goods and services from the market, without putting any product of value on the market. If financed by new credit, that is an inflationary thing to do. If financed by savings, it simply means that consumer buying power in total has been redistributed from the investor to the workers and suppliers, with no inflationary effect.
The moment that the "Titanic" sails (and assuming that it doen't sink on its maiden voyage), there's increased goods and services available to the public (including laid-off shipbuilders), which is every justification for increasing the money supply through a debt free National Dividend.
If the "Titanic" sinks, of course, assuming it has been financed through savings, all that happens is that its investors (or their insurers) lose their money.
Comments?
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com>
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
Alright. Let's pursue this further.
I have (yes, more than once) in my small flower production business, developed a new calla (Zantedeschia vars.) which may sweep the market, or may simply drop out of ken because of changing fashions. Or the tubers may all turn out to be "rotters" and nearly all simply disappear in their third season. I need about $10,000 (minimum) to propagate it in large numbers sufficient to make some sort of impact. And I am not allowed to risk my own capital.
Do I go to one of the banks and demand, by right of being a citizen, a loan of this amount? If not, how the blazes to I persuade my bank manager to fund this very risky project? Must I mortgage my property, which surely would be tantamount to using savings?
Moral: Douglas' analysis of the economic system was absolutely brilliant. His antisemitism, though very fashionable at the time was at the very least irresponsible. Where, in the spectrum of his dicta do we draw the line; at this last point, or a bit sooner in relation to some of his ideas in between? I simply don't buy the superstitious approach of many Scoial Crediters who believe that he must be treated as completely infallible; that his pronouncements should not be subjected to reasonable analysis, particularly in view of changed circumstances. (We no longer live in slump time, for example.)
This ossified and unreasoning approach is one of our weaknesses, every bit as dangerous as subtle movement away from his obviously valid ideas.
Bill, if you do close down, please accept my thanks for riding herd on these discussions to date. I'm sure I have annoyed a few people in the process, but I have gained an immense amount of valuable information from it, as well as sorting out my own ideas for practical use.
Regards. John R.
From: Triumphofthepast@aol.com
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:08:57 EST
"That the credits required to finance production shall be supplied, not from savings, but be new credits relating to new production."
Both John and Joe suggest this means "the aforementioned credits required to LIQUIDATE production." I don't see how it could. Worse, he would now be saying that savings SHALL NOT be used to buy consumer goods and services!
Michael
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