| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2 | | Date: | Friday, December 23, 2005 19:08:01 (+0000) | | From: | John G Rawson <johngrawson @.......com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 3254 (written by Timothy Carpenter) |
Tim, in passing, Happy Christmas!
Your first paragraph misses the very important point that the savings would
have been costed into two cycles of goods, but only spent once to purchase.
Being saved from the first cycle, they were costed into that lot of production.
And nobody wants to invest without return, so they must also be costed by some
means into future production. Perhaps a little bit at a time into various cycles
per interest charges, but certainly costed into future production.
Regards. John R.
From: Timothy Carpenter <timbeau_hk@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Subject: Re:
[socialcredit] Swanwick 2
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:29:44 +0000
Dear Martin,
No ND: If investment is from savings the buying power is restored
to the economy, for savings withdraws buying power. It is reflationary. If the
time between saving and investing is short, then my guess is the impact is hardly
felt. If the time is long, then we have suffered due to the withdrawal and
grateful for the restoration, though damage has been done in the interim.
No ND:
If the Titanic sails or sinks, the investment spent is in the pockets of ship
workers, carpenters etc and has not left or been lost to the economy, but
restored. What will have happened, though, if the Titanic sinks is that a future
destination/vehicle of consumption will have been withdrawn, so preventing the
investors from getting back their money from the economy via the earnings of
customers buying tickets and
not buying anything else (like a lampstand or shoes).
With ND: If the Titanic
sails for 20 years, any increased liquidity in the economy caused by the spending
of the savings in investment during construction would be sucked back from the
economy with interest/gain to repay investors as part of ticket sales (the rest
circulating via wages of the employees and suppliers). Now, over time as the
Titanic is scrapped/written off/down, then my guess is the Nat Dividend should be
adjusted back down (or more realistically the negative offset against a future
increase due to be added as a result of some other worthy project) as the value
of the assets in the economy reduces.
With ND: Not only do we have the money
going back to the investors’ savings accounts, but that the ND is reduced (all
things being equal) as the asset value reduces. First we get the increase in
liquidity from
investor spending and wages paid before tickets are ready to be sold, so we have
in/reflation, then we get ND injection as the asset appears in the economy (i.e.
When Titanic floats and is ready for business) as a SECOND boost, but as the ship
ages and the investors are repaid the ND is reduced too, surely doubling the
effect?
Tim
On 19/12/05 02:16, "Martin Hattersley"
<hattersleyjm@interbaun.com> wrote:
From: Martin Hattersley <mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 9:08 PM
Subject:
Re: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
My own view is that, far from being an economic
downer, capital investment financed by savings is in fact a very sound way of
going about things.
If we spend, say four years in building the "Titanic", we
distribute incomes to workers and suppliers for that four year period, so
withdrawing other goods and services from the market, without putting any product
of value on the market. If financed by new credit, that is an inflationary thing
to do. If financed by savings, it simply means that consumer buying power in
total has been redistributed from the investor to the workers and suppliers,
with no inflationary effect.
The moment that the "Titanic" sails (and
assuming that it doen't sink on its maiden voyage), there's increased goods and
services available to the public (including laid-off shipbuilders), which is
every justification for increasing the money supply through a debt free National
Dividend.
If the "Titanic" sinks, of course, assuming it has been financed
through savings, all that happens is that its investors (or their insurers) lose
their money.
Comments?
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB
CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: John G Rawson
<mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com>
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent:
Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Swanwick
2
Alright. Let's pursue this further.
I have (yes, more than once) in my small
flower production business, developed a new calla (Zantedeschia vars.) which may
sweep the market, or may simply drop out of ken because of changing fashions. Or
the tubers may all turn out to be "rotters" and nearly all simply disappear in
their third season. I need about $10,000 (minimum) to propagate it in large
numbers sufficient to make some sort of impact. And I am not allowed to risk my
own capital.
Do I go to one of the banks and demand, by right of being a
citizen, a loan of this amount? If
not, how the blazes to I persuade my bank manager to fund this very risky
project? Must I mortgage my property, which surely would be tantamount to using
savings?
Moral: Douglas' analysis of the economic system was absolutely
brilliant. His antisemitism, though very fashionable at the time was at the very
least irresponsible. Where, in the spectrum of his dicta do we draw the line; at
this last point, or a bit sooner in relation to some of his ideas in between? I
simply don't buy the superstitious approach of many Scoial Crediters who believe
that he must be treated as completely infallible; that his pronouncements should
not be subjected to reasonable analysis, particularly in view of changed
circumstances. (We no longer live in slump time, for example.)
This ossified and
unreasoning approach is one of our weaknesses, every bit as
dangerous as subtle movement away from his obviously valid ideas.
Bill, if you
do close down, please accept my thanks for riding herd on these discussions to
date. I'm sure I have annoyed a few people in the process, but I have gained an
immense amount of valuable information from it, as well as sorting out my own
ideas for practical use.
Regards. John R.
From: Triumphofthepast@aol.com
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: [socialcredit] Swanwick 2
Date: Thu, 15
Dec 2005 12:08:57 EST
"That the credits required to finance production shall
be supplied, not from savings, but be new credits relating to new
production."
Both John and Joe suggest this means "the aforementioned credits
required to LIQUIDATE production." I don't see how it could. Worse, he would
now be saying that savings SHALL NOT be used to buy consumer goods and
services!
Michael
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