| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together | | Date: | Sunday, January 1, 2006 17:44:41 (-0700) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <hattersleyjm @.........com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 3290 (written by Joe Thomson) |
Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for his discussion of the "J
curve", which I think is another way of looking at A+B, rather than for adopting his
ideas holus bolus.
There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and Douglas's price discount is the
neatest way of balancing production with demand, without demanding unnecessary
work from anyone, that I know of - a definitely better alternative.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Thomson
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
That's a very interesting paper, Martin, as are all your pieces. Thanks. I
don't think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others in comparison to
those of Douglas.
In Soddy I see some similarities with Douglas, but different terminology and
concepts. And objective. Soddy seems to be more in favour of a 'stable price
level' than a constantly 'falling' one. As Douglas envisioned through an
application of credit enabling all the benefits of continually advancing
technology to be accessed 'financially' by consumers in the provision of desired
product, As well as provision for increased leisure .
Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating credit for spending on
infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer' credits to individuals. Is
this a large part of the reason why many find 'government' infrastructure
spending in a slump so attractive? To try to keep up the price level?
I guess it's difficult for many to initially envision how 'consumer' goods
could be sold for less than financial cost on an ongoing basis without businesses
being ruined, Simply through the employment of a different technique of credit.
But I think true 'consumer' demand made ''effective demand'' would then create
renewed economic activity far more effectively than 'infrastructure spending'
pump priming ever will.
I've nothing against 'needed' infrastructure being built, but not as 'make
work' projects to provide an unnecessary 'moral' reason for paying people an
'income'. As well as a means of keeping them 'under control'.
Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to me in that regard~ he seems
concerned to keep everyone 'working'. The goal of a triumph of the individual's
'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power' externally imposed economically on
him, something so prevalent in Douglas, seems to be absent with Soddy.
I get the impression from what you've written and quoted he thinks the
'government' knows best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas completely
figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered for discovering isotopes.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Hattersley
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late Professor Soddy for the
Eastern Economics Association. I think Soddy's description of the "J curve"
phenomenon essentially describes the problem we have to tackle.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>I agree with a great deal of what Martin has written identifying the
> problems, but I do not fully concur with some of the solutions. This may
> well be due to a lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm reading into
> what
> Martin's proposing something that isn't intended by him. But there are
> some
> concerns I have with some of what's proposed nevertheless. I'll come back
> to them later, but for the moment I'd like to comment on just this.
>
> (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this initial expression of the theorem omitted
> was the fact that
>> certain industries distribute wages to their workers, while not putting
>> goods on the market for immediate sale to consumers. These are the
> factories
>> that make the tools that workers will later use to turn out actual
> products.
>> While this new capital formation is taking place, its distribution of
> funds
>> to consumers in wages and dividends, particularly when financed by newly
>> created bank credit, serves as a form of National Dividend that makes it
>> possible for the consuming public to buy all that is on the market for
> sale,
>> without producers being forced to sell below cost.
>
> (Joe replies:-) There is a quote in one of the early Douglas books that
> remarks " ....just as the construction of a new railway bridge raises the
> price of bacon in a village shop." While there is no doubt that 'newly
> created bank credit' to finance new works serves as you say, however it is
> also, I think, true what Douglas says.
>
> He notes that the upper limit of price is governed roughly by the
> 'quantity
> theory of money'. The lower by financial 'cost'. If there's 'more money
> about' the merchant is going to try and get 'more' of it. He has to, if
> he's to stay in business. Simply because the fact there IS 'more money
> about' has diluted the purchasing power of ALL money about.
>
> He is selling in the hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank lends at
> interest in hopes of the same. But money is variable in what it will
> 'buy',
> and he has to continually replace and, if selling more, increase, his
> stock
> in trade. (Just as a bank has to increase its 'stock', its 'deposits' or
> whatever else we've been foolish enough to allow it to use as its
> reserves,
> if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to doing this ~ banks 'pay'
> interest as well as receive it. And 'more' interest when they want more
> deposits.)
>
> If the stock the merchant buys has risen in price, what he might have
> taken
> for himself in profit is diminished. It goes back to fund the new stock,
> or
> he has to take out a larger overdraft to do so. His sales may be rising,
> and so in terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE of profit in
> ratio to that increase in sales taken over time is in continuing
> decline.
> 'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the business sense, are exactly the
> same. One of the components of 'interest', as we've seen, is allowance
> for
> 'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit' would likely then have to
> be
> the same. It is why I believe Douglas noted that "large works on
> completion
> are paid for by an expansion of credit." The words "on completion" imply
> there must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that which took place
> to
> initiate the construction of those 'large works'. The 'inflation' is
> continuous, and the community pays for its progress twice. Unless there
> is
> an implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon we can finally begin
> to
> enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the proper decline in overall
> retail prices that capital appreciation should have brought about.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date: 29/12/2005
>
>
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You're subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
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You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
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<DIV><FONT size=2>Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for his
discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another way of looking at A+B,
rather than for adopting his ideas holus bolus. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and Douglas's
price discount is the neatest way of balancing production with demand,
without demanding unnecessary work from anyone, that I know of - a
definitely better alternative.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB CANADA<BR>Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca href="mailto:thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca">Joe Thomson</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 31, 2005 10:31
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>That's a very interesting paper, Martin, as
are all your pieces. Thanks. I don't think it hurts to
explore some of the ideas of others in comparison to those
of Douglas. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>In Soddy I see some similarities with Douglas, but
different terminology and concepts. And objective. Soddy seems to be
more in favour of a 'stable price level' than a constantly 'falling'
one. As Douglas envisioned through an application
of credit enabling all the benefits of continually advancing
technology to be accessed 'financially' by consumers in the provision of
desired product, As well as provision for increased
leisure . </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating credit for
spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer' credits to
individuals. Is this a large part of the reason why many find
'government' infrastructure spending in a slump so
attractive? To try to keep up the price level? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I guess it's difficult for many to initially
envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold for less than financial cost
on an ongoing basis without businesses being ruined, Simply
through the employment of a different technique of
credit. But I think true 'consumer' demand made
''effective demand'' would then create renewed economic activity
far more effectively than 'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever
will. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial> I've nothing against 'needed' infrastructure being
built, but not as 'make work' projects to provide an unnecessary 'moral'
reason for paying people an 'income'. As well as
a means of keeping them 'under control'. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to me in
that regard~ he seems concerned to keep everyone
'working'. The goal of a triumph of the individual's
'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power' externally imposed
economically on him, something so prevalent in Douglas,
seems to be absent with Soddy. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial> I get the impression from what you've written and
quoted he thinks the 'government' knows best. Personally,
I think once we get Douglas completely figured out, Soddy will
best remain remembered for discovering isotopes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Joe</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:02
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late
Professor Soddy for the <BR>Eastern Economics Association. I think Soddy's
description of the "J curve" <BR>phenomenon essentially describes the
problem we have to tackle.<BR><BR>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99
St.,<BR>EDMONTON AB CANADA<BR>Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A><BR>-----
Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Joe Thomson"
<thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca><BR>To: <socialcredit@elistas.com><BR>Sent:
Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together<BR><BR><BR>>I agree with a great deal of what Martin has
written identifying the<BR>> problems, but I do not fully concur with
some of the solutions. This may<BR>> well be due to a lack of
knowledge on my part, or that I'm reading into <BR>> what<BR>>
Martin's proposing something that isn't intended by him. But there are
<BR>> some<BR>> concerns I have with some of what's proposed
nevertheless. I'll come back<BR>> to them later, but for the moment
I'd like to comment on just this.<BR>><BR>> (Martin wrote:-)
> 5. What this initial expression of the theorem omitted<BR>> was the
fact that<BR>>> certain industries distribute wages to their workers,
while not putting<BR>>> goods on the market for immediate sale to
consumers. These are the<BR>> factories<BR>>> that make the tools
that workers will later use to turn out actual<BR>> products.<BR>>>
While this new capital formation is taking place, its distribution
of<BR>> funds<BR>>> to consumers in wages and dividends,
particularly when financed by newly<BR>>> created bank credit, serves
as a form of National Dividend that makes it<BR>>> possible for the
consuming public to buy all that is on the market for<BR>>
sale,<BR>>> without producers being forced to sell below
cost.<BR>><BR>> (Joe replies:-) There is a quote in one of the
early Douglas books that<BR>> remarks " ....just as the
construction of a new railway bridge raises the<BR>> price of bacon in a
village shop." While there is no doubt that 'newly<BR>> created
bank credit' to finance new works serves as you say, however it is<BR>>
also, I think, true what Douglas says.<BR>><BR>> He notes that the
upper limit of price is governed roughly by the <BR>> 'quantity<BR>>
theory of money'. The lower by financial 'cost'. If there's 'more
money<BR>> about' the merchant is going to try and get 'more' of
it. He has to, if<BR>> he's to stay in business. Simply
because the fact there IS 'more money<BR>> about' has diluted the
purchasing power of ALL money about.<BR>><BR>> He is selling in the
hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank lends at<BR>> interest in
hopes of the same. But money is variable in what it will <BR>>
'buy',<BR>> and he has to continually replace and, if selling more,
increase, his <BR>> stock<BR>> in trade. (Just as a bank has to
increase its 'stock', its 'deposits' or<BR>> whatever else we've been
foolish enough to allow it to use as its <BR>> reserves,<BR>> if it
wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to doing this ~ banks 'pay'<BR>>
interest as well as receive it. And 'more' interest when they want
more<BR>> deposits.)<BR>><BR>> If the stock the merchant buys has
risen in price, what he might have <BR>> taken<BR>> for himself in
profit is diminished. It goes back to fund the new stock, <BR>>
or<BR>> he has to take out a larger overdraft to do so. His sales
may be rising,<BR>> and so in terms of dollars may be his profit.
But the RATE of profit in<BR>> ratio to that increase in sales
taken over time is in continuing <BR>> decline.<BR>> 'Interest'
and 'profit', considered in the business sense, are exactly the<BR>>
same. One of the components of 'interest', as we've seen, is allowance
<BR>> for<BR>> 'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit'
would likely then have to <BR>> be<BR>> the same. It is why I
believe Douglas noted that "large works on <BR>> completion<BR>> are
paid for by an expansion of credit." The words "on completion"
imply<BR>> there must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that which
took place <BR>> to<BR>> initiate the construction of those 'large
works'. The 'inflation' is<BR>> continuous, and the community pays
for its progress twice. Unless there <BR>> is<BR>> an
implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon we can finally begin
<BR>> to<BR>> enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the proper
decline in overall<BR>> retail prices that capital appreciation should
have brought about.<BR>><BR>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
at<BR>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<;BR>> You're
subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com<BR>>
For more information, visit
http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit<;BR>><BR>><BR>> -- <BR>>
No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>> Checked by AVG Free
Edition.<BR>> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release
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<BR><BR><BR>---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Some
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