In-Reply-To: <002801c60e94$9f60aea0$bad44246@cc.shawcable.net>
Hi Joe.
Why is it that either consumer credit, or State spending should be carved
in letters of stone ?
Why not either or both to be available as conditions of the time dictate ?
Or does ideology interfere with expediency ?
Ken.
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Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:31:31 -0800
From: Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
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Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
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That's a very interesting paper, Martin, as are all your pieces. =
Thanks. I don't think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others =
in comparison to those of Douglas. =20
In Soddy I see some similarities with Douglas, but different terminology =
and concepts. And objective. Soddy seems to be more in favour of a =
'stable price level' than a constantly 'falling' one. As Douglas =
envisioned through an application of credit enabling all the benefits =
of continually advancing technology to be accessed 'financially' by =
consumers in the provision of desired product, As well as provision for =
increased leisure . =20
Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating credit for spending on =
infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer' credits to =
individuals. Is this a large part of the reason why many find =
'government' infrastructure spending in a slump so attractive? To try =
to keep up the price level? =20
I guess it's difficult for many to initially envision how 'consumer' =
goods could be sold for less than financial cost on an ongoing basis =
without businesses being ruined, Simply through the employment of a =
different technique of credit. But I think true 'consumer' demand made =
''effective demand'' would then create renewed economic activity far =
more effectively than 'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever will.=20
I've nothing against 'needed' infrastructure being built, but not as =
'make work' projects to provide an unnecessary 'moral' reason for paying =
people an 'income'. As well as a means of keeping them 'under =
control'.=20
Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to me in that regard~ he seems =
concerned to keep everyone 'working'. The goal of a triumph of the =
individual's 'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power' externally =
imposed economically on him, something so prevalent in Douglas, seems =
to be absent with Soddy. =20
I get the impression from what you've written and quoted he thinks the =
'government' knows best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas =
completely figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered for =
discovering isotopes.
Joe
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Martin Hattersley=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late Professor Soddy =
for the=20
Eastern Economics Association. I think Soddy's description of the "J =
curve"=20
phenomenon essentially describes the problem we have to tackle.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>I agree with a great deal of what Martin has written identifying the
> problems, but I do not fully concur with some of the solutions. =
This may
> well be due to a lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm reading =
into=20
> what
> Martin's proposing something that isn't intended by him. But there =
are=20
> some
> concerns I have with some of what's proposed nevertheless. I'll =
come back
> to them later, but for the moment I'd like to comment on just this.
>
> (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this initial expression of the theorem =
omitted
> was the fact that
>> certain industries distribute wages to their workers, while not =
putting
>> goods on the market for immediate sale to consumers. These are the
> factories
>> that make the tools that workers will later use to turn out actual
> products.
>> While this new capital formation is taking place, its distribution =
of
> funds
>> to consumers in wages and dividends, particularly when financed by =
newly
>> created bank credit, serves as a form of National Dividend that =
makes it
>> possible for the consuming public to buy all that is on the market =
for
> sale,
>> without producers being forced to sell below cost.
>
> (Joe replies:-) There is a quote in one of the early Douglas books =
that
> remarks " ....just as the construction of a new railway bridge =
raises the
> price of bacon in a village shop." While there is no doubt that =
'newly
> created bank credit' to finance new works serves as you say, however =
it is
> also, I think, true what Douglas says.
>
> He notes that the upper limit of price is governed roughly by the=20
> 'quantity
> theory of money'. The lower by financial 'cost'. If there's 'more =
money
> about' the merchant is going to try and get 'more' of it. He has =
to, if
> he's to stay in business. Simply because the fact there IS 'more =
money
> about' has diluted the purchasing power of ALL money about.
>
> He is selling in the hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank =
lends at
> interest in hopes of the same. But money is variable in what it =
will=20
> 'buy',
> and he has to continually replace and, if selling more, increase, =
his=20
> stock
> in trade. (Just as a bank has to increase its 'stock', its =
'deposits' or
> whatever else we've been foolish enough to allow it to use as its=20
> reserves,
> if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to doing this ~ banks =
'pay'
> interest as well as receive it. And 'more' interest when they want =
more
> deposits.)
>
> If the stock the merchant buys has risen in price, what he might =
have=20
> taken
> for himself in profit is diminished. It goes back to fund the new =
stock,=20
> or
> he has to take out a larger overdraft to do so. His sales may be =
rising,
> and so in terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE of =
profit in
> ratio to that increase in sales taken over time is in continuing=20
> decline.
> 'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the business sense, are =
exactly the
> same. One of the components of 'interest', as we've seen, is =
allowance=20
> for
> 'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit' would likely then =
have to=20
> be
> the same. It is why I believe Douglas noted that "large works on=20
> completion
> are paid for by an expansion of credit." The words "on completion" =
imply
> there must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that which took =
place=20
> to
> initiate the construction of those 'large works'. The 'inflation' =
is
> continuous, and the community pays for its progress twice. Unless =
there=20
> is
> an implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon we can finally =
begin=20
> to
> enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the proper decline in =
overall
> retail prices that capital appreciation should have brought about.
>
> =
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are =
at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> You're subscribed to this list with the email =
hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>
>
> --=20
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date: =
29/12/2005
>
>=20
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are =
at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date: =
29/12/2005
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are =
at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email kenpalmerton@cix.co.uk
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>That's a very interesting paper, =
Martin, as are=20
all your pieces. Thanks. I don't think it hurts to =
explore some=20
of the ideas of others in comparison to those of Douglas. =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>In Soddy I see some similarities with =
Douglas, but=20
different terminology and concepts. And objective. Soddy seems to =
be more=20
in favour of a 'stable price level' than a constantly 'falling'=20
one. As Douglas envisioned through an application
=
of credit enabling all the benefits of continually advancing=20
technology to be accessed 'financially' by consumers in the =
provision of=20
desired product, As well as provision for increased=20
leisure . </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating =
credit for=20
spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer' credits =
to=20
individuals. Is this a large part of the reason why many =
find=20
'government' infrastructure spending in a slump so =
attractive? =20
To try to keep up the price level? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I guess it's difficult for many to initially=20
envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold for less than =
financial cost=20
on an ongoing basis without businesses being ruined, Simply=20
through the employment of a different technique of=20
credit. But I think true 'consumer' demand made=20
''effective demand'' would then create renewed economic =
activity far=20
more effectively than 'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever=20
will. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial> I've nothing against 'needed' =
infrastructure being=20
built, but not as 'make work' projects to provide an unnecessary 'moral' =
reason=20
for paying people an 'income'. As well as =
a means of=20
keeping them 'under control'. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to =
me in that=20
regard~ he seems concerned to keep everyone =
'working'. The=20
goal of a triumph of the individual's 'will-to-freedom' over =
the=20
'will-to-power' externally imposed economically on=20
him, something so prevalent in Douglas, seems to =
be absent=20
with Soddy. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial> I get the impression from what you've =
written and=20
quoted he thinks the 'government' knows =
best. Personally,=20
I think once we get Douglas completely figured out, Soddy =
will best=20
remain remembered for discovering isotopes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Joe</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dhattersleyjm@interbaun.com=20
href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 29, =
2005 7:02=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
Putting it=20
all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late =
Professor=20
Soddy for the <BR>Eastern Economics Association. I think Soddy's =
description=20
of the "J curve" <BR>phenomenon essentially describes the problem we =
have to=20
tackle.<BR><BR>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St.,<BR>EDMONTON
AB=20
CANADA<BR>Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
<BR>-----=20
Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Joe Thomson"=20
<thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca><BR>To: =
<socialcredit@elistas.com><BR>Sent:=20
Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] =
Putting it=20
all together<BR><BR><BR>>I agree with a great deal of what Martin =
has=20
written identifying the<BR>> problems, but I do not fully concur =
with some=20
of the solutions. This may<BR>> well be due to a lack of =
knowledge on=20
my part, or that I'm reading into <BR>> what<BR>> Martin's =
proposing=20
something that isn't intended by him. But there are <BR>>=20
some<BR>> concerns I have with some of what's proposed =
nevertheless. =20
I'll come back<BR>> to them later, but for the moment I'd like to =
comment=20
on just this.<BR>><BR>> (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this =
initial=20
expression of the theorem omitted<BR>> was the fact =
that<BR>>>=20
certain industries distribute wages to their workers, while not=20
putting<BR>>> goods on the market for immediate sale to =
consumers. These=20
are the<BR>> factories<BR>>> that make the tools that workers =
will=20
later use to turn out actual<BR>> products.<BR>>> While this =
new=20
capital formation is taking place, its distribution of<BR>>=20
funds<BR>>> to consumers in wages and dividends, particularly =
when=20
financed by newly<BR>>> created bank credit, serves as a form of =
National Dividend that makes it<BR>>> possible for the consuming =
public=20
to buy all that is on the market for<BR>> sale,<BR>>> without =
producers being forced to sell below cost.<BR>><BR>> (Joe=20
replies:-) There is a quote in one of the early Douglas books=20
that<BR>> remarks " ....just as the construction of a new =
railway=20
bridge raises the<BR>> price of bacon in a village shop." =
While there=20
is no doubt that 'newly<BR>> created bank credit' to finance new =
works=20
serves as you say, however it is<BR>> also, I think, true what =
Douglas=20
says.<BR>><BR>> He notes that the upper limit of price is =
governed=20
roughly by the <BR>> 'quantity<BR>> theory of money'. The lower =
by=20
financial 'cost'. If there's 'more money<BR>> about' the =
merchant is=20
going to try and get 'more' of it. He has to, if<BR>> =
he's to=20
stay in business. Simply because the fact there IS 'more =
money<BR>>=20
about' has diluted the purchasing power of ALL money =
about.<BR>><BR>> He=20
is selling in the hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank lends=20
at<BR>> interest in hopes of the same. But money is variable =
in what=20
it will <BR>> 'buy',<BR>> and he has to continually =
replace and,=20
if selling more, increase, his <BR>> stock<BR>> in trade. =
(Just as=20
a bank has to increase its 'stock', its 'deposits' or<BR>> whatever =
else=20
we've been foolish enough to allow it to use as its <BR>> =
reserves,<BR>>=20
if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to doing this ~ banks=20
'pay'<BR>> interest as well as receive it. And 'more' interest when =
they=20
want more<BR>> deposits.)<BR>><BR>> If the stock the merchant =
buys=20
has risen in price, what he might have <BR>> taken<BR>> for =
himself in=20
profit is diminished. It goes back to fund the new stock, =
<BR>>=20
or<BR>> he has to take out a larger overdraft to do so. His =
sales may=20
be rising,<BR>> and so in terms of dollars may be his profit. =
But the=20
RATE of profit in<BR>> ratio to that increase in sales taken=20
over time is in continuing <BR>> decline.<BR>> 'Interest' =
and=20
'profit', considered in the business sense, are exactly the<BR>>=20
same. One of the components of 'interest', as we've seen, is =
allowance=20
<BR>> for<BR>> 'inflation'. One of the components of =
'profit'=20
would likely then have to <BR>> be<BR>> the same. It is =
why I=20
believe Douglas noted that "large works on <BR>> completion<BR>> =
are=20
paid for by an expansion of credit." The words "on completion"=20
imply<BR>> there must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that =
which=20
took place <BR>> to<BR>> initiate the construction of those =
'large=20
works'. The 'inflation' is<BR>> continuous, and the community =
pays=20
for its progress twice. Unless there <BR>> is<BR>> an=20
implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon we can finally begin =
<BR>>=20
to<BR>> enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the proper =
decline in=20
overall<BR>> retail prices that capital appreciation should =
have =20
brought about.<BR>><BR>>=20
=
---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>=
>=20
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are=20
at<BR>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<;BR>> You're =
subscribed to this list with the email =
hattersleyjm@interbaun.com<BR>> For=20
more information, visit=20
http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit<;BR>><BR>><BR>> -- =
<BR>>=20
No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>> Checked by AVG Free=20
Edition.<BR>> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - =
Release=20
Date: 29/12/2005<BR>><BR>>=20
=
<BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------=
--------<BR>Some=20
introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are=20
at<BR>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<;BR>You're =
subscribed to=20
this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca<BR>For more information, =
visit=20
http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit<;BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>Checked by AVG Free =
Edition.<BR>Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release =
Date:=20
=
29/12/2005<BR><BR><BR>---------------------------------------------------=
------------------<BR>Some=20
introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are=20
at<BR>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<;BR>You're =
subscribed to=20
this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca<BR>For more information, =
visit=20
=
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<p><pre>-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [socialcredit]
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