In-Reply-To: <005001c60d91$23035dc0$034722cf@martinh4>
Dear Martin.
Thank you for that. He was certainly a good teacher.
I am not sure if Muriel still lives, but I did visit her after Vics death
at their bungalow in Sheffield. Her role in the Coordinating Centre needs
acknowledging.
Both before, and after their eventual marriage. At Filey as well as at
Mexborough.
Ken.
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From: "Martin Hattersley" <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
References: <memo.856148@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:29:13 -0700
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reply-type=originalSubject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
X-Envelope-To: kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk
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Hi to you also Ken.
Any friend of Vic Hadkins is certainly a friend of mine!
Happy New Year.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> In-Reply-To: <000501c60bee$9fe0a720$de5b22cf@martinh4>
> Hi Martin.
>
> A happy and prosperous new year to you and yours.
>
> I thank you for taking the trouble to write out in some detail your
> present position. I count it a great privilege to be allowed this.
>
> Assuming that you wish to continue the discussion, I have printed off
your> post, and intend to reply in detail when I have given the proper
attention> to what you have written. Though I would like you to know that
we are> essentially in agreement. Only details, that really have little
relevance> in the world of practical politics remain for us money junkies
to chew> over :-)))
>
> I do not expect you to remember me, we met only once and briefly at a
> COMER meeting in Toronto whilst I was at a UNESCO conference there some
> years ago.
>
> Though your roots I know well. I was put on the right path by Vic
Hadkins,> who I am sure you know from his association with your Father in
> Mexborough. It was Vic who bequeathed most of his library to me when he
> eventually decided to cease publishing "Abundance".
>
> The episode of the huge board room table is still spoken of here :-)
>
> Ken.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
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> From: "Martin Hattersley" <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 13:37:21 -0700
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> reply-type=originalSubject: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
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>
> Ken -
>
> I'm afraid our discussions on this list cover such a wide range that we
> are likely to get confused over exactly what we are talking about. I
> thought therefore that I'd put together my thoughts on the economic
> situation that Douglas described, as I see it from today's viewpoint. So
> here goes:
>
> 1. Say's law states that the level of prices will be set by a balance of
> the quantity of goods on the market for sale, with the money available in
> the hands of consumers to purchase them.
>
> 2. This proposition has erroneously been used to "prove" that there can
> never be a deficiency of purchasing power in the hands of consumers - the
> price level will always adjust to match the purchasing power that is
> available.
>
> 3. The catch in that argument is that producers cannot in the long run
> sell below cost. Rather than do this, goods are withheld from the market,
> cartels and monopolies (and sometimes wars) are used to raise prices
> through artificial scarcity, and the overall effect is one of poverty in
> the midst of potential plenty.
>
> 4. C.H.Douglas made the observation that, as a matter of cost accounting,
> such a deficiency of purchasing power does exist in the modern economy.
> Initially, his A+B theorem was used to show that, while certain business
> costs (wages in particular) were distributed at the same time as incomes
> to those who will buy the products of industry ("A" costs), certain
others> ("B" and especially capital costs) had to be charged into prices
without> an equivalent amount of purchasing power being distributed to
potential> purchasers at the same time. There was a substantial
deficiency, which> should be covered by a National Dividend payable to
consumers, or a Just> Price - a discount paid to producers from a State
agency - that would> "close the gap".
>
> 5. What this initial expression of the theorem omitted was the fact that
> certain industries distribute wages to their workers, while not putting
> goods on the market for immediate sale to consumers. These are the
> factories that make the tools that workers will later use to turn out
> actual products. While this new capital formation is taking place, its
> distribution of funds to consumers in wages and dividends, particularly
> when financed by newly created bank credit, serves as a form of National
> Dividend that makes it possible for the consuming public to buy all that
> is on the market for sale, without producers being forced to sell below
> cost.
>
> 6. The "new orthodoxy", initiated by Lord Keynes, is therefore to promote
> "full employment" and "economic growth", by encouraging investment
> through lower interest rates, so that projects that would otherwise be
> uneconomic, are financed with new, low interest, bank credit and so
> proceed, distributing wage incomes to workers in the process.
>
> 7. This "new orthodoxy", however, has serious defects.
>
> (a) Promoting exponential economic development in a finite world is a
> recipe for the exploitation and exhaustion of resources, and the
> destruction of the environment.
> (b) Making employment the requirement before consumers can receive
> adequate incomes deprives the unemployed of the value of a "dividend
> income" that would otherwise be theirs as their share of the "cultural
> heritage" (the resources provided by nature and the investments of
> previous generations) that are the inheritance of all.
> (c) Financing economic growth from lending by the commercial banks gives
> immense and unwarranted profit and power to those who in this way have a
> "license to print money". This power includes the power to influence the
> political process by appropriate donations to political parties,
> receiving appropriate government policies and appointments in return.
> (d) Private investment, ownership and savings, and the incomes to be
> received therefrom, are discouraged in favour of the acquisition of
assets> by borrowing from the commercial banking system.
> (e) Every dollar created by the commercial banking system is matched by
a> dollar of debt owed either by persons, business or governments. The
> interest burden of this debt, particularly on third world countries and
on> the poorer classes everywhere, is ruinous.
> (f) The system runs "on a wing and a prayer", swinging uncontrollably
> from boom to depression depending on the amount of bank financed capital
> development taking place. This leaves openings for speculation and fraud
> that in no way increase the real wealth of the community.
> (g) Inflation, (the loss of purchasing power by the unit of currency) is
> a built in consequence of the arrangement.
> (h) The efficiency of the economy is reduced, because of immense costs
in> advertising and sales, overgrowth of the "financial sector", restricted
> production to maintain prices, and lack of consumer effective demand.
> (i) There is an ever growing gap between the "haves", who have some
> control of the system, and the "have nots", forced by the "iron laws of
> economics" to work for the minimum wage that will keep body and soul
> together. Cut throat competition (led by Wal-Mart) leads the whole
> economy, producers and consumers alike, into a frantic "race to the
> bottom".
>
> 8. To deal with this situation, the following would appear necessary:
>
> (a) Management by government of the quantity of purchasing power in
> circulation on a statistical basis, to balance goods for sale at a
> reasonable margin of profit with available purchasing power in the hands
> of consumers.
> (b) Supplementing incomes from employment with a universal unearned
> "dividend" income, paid either from new credit, or if necessary,
taxation,> which could easily replace many of our chaotic current systems
of welfare.> (c) Balancing consumer demand with potential supply, by a
"retail price> discount" (inverse sales tax) paid to producers on the
price of their> products when these are sold.
> (d) Creating the nation's money supply by a process that does not
involve> the creation of debt to private interests.
> (e) Control of private entities (banks in particular) producing
> substitutes for legal tender money, either by requiring 100% legal tender
> backing for bank promises to pay, or some form of taxation that will give
> the community the benefit of the profit that comes from their creating
> units of purchasing power.
>
> 9. Some other matters that may need to be discussed:
>
> (a) Abolition of lending at fixed interest.
> I am strongly in favour of equity investment, where the investor, not the
> borrower, takes the risk of loss if his project does not pay off. Just
> the same, I do not consider it essential to a working economy that fixed
> interest lending be outlawed.
> (b) Interest free lending for public works.
> I regard the "public credit" as an asset of the community as a whole. I
> have no objection to using it to pay for government infrastructure
> projects, so long as the community itself makes the political decision
> that this is how it wants its "dividend" income to be spent. Otherwise,
> not.(c) Abolition of taxation.
> Government costs money, and taxes pay for government. I believe it is
> dangerous to allow a government to avoid responsibility for how it draws
> on the resources of the community by spending money, by allowing it to
> either borrow or create new credit to finance itself. Remember that in
> Canada, some 30% of federal spending is now to make payments on the
> National Debt - something that makes the Government a tax collector for
> the commercial banks, an avoidable expense.
> (d) "New Credits for New Production". (Swanwick principle #2)
> I find it difficult even to understand what is meant by this, and I
> believe it is a matter of policy adopted before the A+B theorem was fully
> developed. My own view is that new production nowadays depends on
> investing labour and resources in capital assets well ahead of products
> reaching the market. To finance such investment with new credit increases
> consumer effective demand, without any increase in product while such
> investment is taking place, causing inflation. This is balanced by a
> shortage of effective demand when products come on sale, the workers
> creating the investment have been laid off, and depression. Using new
> credit, rather than private savings, to finance capital development is a
> primary cause of this cycle between boom and depression, and is unsound.
> (e) Henry George's "Single Tax" on land and natural resources.
> I regard this as an important issue, particularly since the current
> banking system makes it easy for the rich to accumulate the resources,
> leaving those without property to pay for their homes in rents and
> mortgages out of their meager earnings from employment. Nevertheless, it
> does not deal with the problems caused by the defects in our current
> financial system, and therefore is not a complete answer to current
> problems.
>
> Lots to discuss!
>
> And a happy new year to all on the list!
>
>
> Martin Hattersley
> 1970-10123-99 St.,
> EDMONTON AB CANADA
> Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
> e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>
>
>
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