| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together | | Date: | Monday, January 2, 2006 10:52:05 (-0800) | | From: | Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu @....ca>
|
| In reply to: | Message 3292 (written by Kenneth Palmerton) |
Hi Ken,
(You wrote:-) Why is it that either consumer credit, or State spending
should be carved in letters of stone ?
(I reply:-) I don't think it's a question really of 'carving anything in
stone', but one of just what it is we're really trying to do. Do we want the
necessity of freely entering 'contract under duress' to achieve some
intended result, or do we want to continue to be placed under duress to sign
the contract?
>
(Ken continues:-) Why not either or both to be available as conditions of
the time dictate ?
(I reply:-) I think it's not so much that 'both' won't be
available, but the conception that's so easy to establish, and once
established, maintain, that we 'must' do this before we can do that. We
don't as yet have very effective methods of 'controlling' our Governments.
>
(Ken continues:-) Or does ideology interfere with expediency ?
(I reply:-) I think from what we've witnessed in the last few years here in
BC that a flawed ideology combined with expediency is a recipe for impending
disaster.
Joe
>
> Ken.
>
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> Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:31:31 -0800
> From: Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
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> <00bf01c60cef$b970c3d0$984722cf@martinh4>
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> X-Envelope-To: kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk
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>
> That's a very interesting paper, Martin, as are all your pieces. =
> Thanks. I don't think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others =
> in comparison to those of Douglas. =20
>
> In Soddy I see some similarities with Douglas, but different terminology =
> and concepts. And objective. Soddy seems to be more in favour of a =
> 'stable price level' than a constantly 'falling' one. As Douglas =
> envisioned through an application of credit enabling all the benefits =
> of continually advancing technology to be accessed 'financially' by =
> consumers in the provision of desired product, As well as provision for =
> increased leisure . =20
>
> Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating credit for spending on =
> infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer' credits to =
> individuals. Is this a large part of the reason why many find =
> 'government' infrastructure spending in a slump so attractive? To try =
> to keep up the price level? =20
>
> I guess it's difficult for many to initially envision how 'consumer' =
> goods could be sold for less than financial cost on an ongoing basis =
> without businesses being ruined, Simply through the employment of a =
> different technique of credit. But I think true 'consumer' demand made =
> ''effective demand'' would then create renewed economic activity far =
> more effectively than 'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever will.=20
>
> I've nothing against 'needed' infrastructure being built, but not as =
> 'make work' projects to provide an unnecessary 'moral' reason for paying =
> people an 'income'. As well as a means of keeping them 'under =
> control'.=20
>
> Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to me in that regard~ he seems =
> concerned to keep everyone 'working'. The goal of a triumph of the =
> individual's 'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power' externally =
> imposed economically on him, something so prevalent in Douglas, seems =
> to be absent with Soddy. =20
>
> I get the impression from what you've written and quoted he thinks the =
> 'government' knows best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas =
> completely figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered for =
> discovering isotopes.
>
> Joe
>
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Martin Hattersley=20
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>
>
> I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late Professor Soddy =
> for the=20
> Eastern Economics Association. I think Soddy's description of the "J =
> curve"=20
> phenomenon essentially describes the problem we have to tackle.
>
> Martin Hattersley
> 1970-10123-99 St.,
> EDMONTON AB CANADA
> Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
> e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>
>
> >I agree with a great deal of what Martin has written identifying the
> > problems, but I do not fully concur with some of the solutions. =
> This may
> > well be due to a lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm reading =
> into=20
> > what
> > Martin's proposing something that isn't intended by him. But there =
> are=20
> > some
> > concerns I have with some of what's proposed nevertheless. I'll =
> come back
> > to them later, but for the moment I'd like to comment on just this.
> >
> > (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this initial expression of the theorem =
> omitted
> > was the fact that
> >> certain industries distribute wages to their workers, while not =
> putting
> >> goods on the market for immediate sale to consumers. These are the
> > factories
> >> that make the tools that workers will later use to turn out actual
> > products.
> >> While this new capital formation is taking place, its distribution =
> of
> > funds
> >> to consumers in wages and dividends, particularly when financed by =
> newly
> >> created bank credit, serves as a form of National Dividend that =
> makes it
> >> possible for the consuming public to buy all that is on the market =
> for
> > sale,
> >> without producers being forced to sell below cost.
> >
> > (Joe replies:-) There is a quote in one of the early Douglas books =
> that
> > remarks " ....just as the construction of a new railway bridge =
> raises the
> > price of bacon in a village shop." While there is no doubt that =
> 'newly
> > created bank credit' to finance new works serves as you say, however =
> it is
> > also, I think, true what Douglas says.
> >
> > He notes that the upper limit of price is governed roughly by the=20
> > 'quantity
> > theory of money'. The lower by financial 'cost'. If there's 'more =
> money
> > about' the merchant is going to try and get 'more' of it. He has =
> to, if
> > he's to stay in business. Simply because the fact there IS 'more =
> money
> > about' has diluted the purchasing power of ALL money about.
> >
> > He is selling in the hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank =
> lends at
> > interest in hopes of the same. But money is variable in what it =
> will=20
> > 'buy',
> > and he has to continually replace and, if selling more, increase, =
> his=20
> > stock
> > in trade. (Just as a bank has to increase its 'stock', its =
> 'deposits' or
> > whatever else we've been foolish enough to allow it to use as its=20
> > reserves,
> > if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to doing this ~ banks =
> 'pay'
> > interest as well as receive it. And 'more' interest when they want =
> more
> > deposits.)
> >
> > If the stock the merchant buys has risen in price, what he might =
> have=20
> > taken
> > for himself in profit is diminished. It goes back to fund the new =
> stock,=20
> > or
> > he has to take out a larger overdraft to do so. His sales may be =
> rising,
> > and so in terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE of =
> profit in
> > ratio to that increase in sales taken over time is in continuing=20
> > decline.
> > 'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the business sense, are =
> exactly the
> > same. One of the components of 'interest', as we've seen, is =
> allowance=20
> > for
> > 'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit' would likely then =
> have to=20
> > be
> > the same. It is why I believe Douglas noted that "large works on=20
> > completion
> > are paid for by an expansion of credit." The words "on completion" =
> imply
> > there must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that which took =
> place=20
> > to
> > initiate the construction of those 'large works'. The 'inflation' =
> is
> > continuous, and the community pays for its progress twice. Unless =
> there=20
> > is
> > an implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon we can finally =
> begin=20
> > to
> > enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the proper decline in =
> overall
> > retail prices that capital appreciation should have brought about.
> >
> > =
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are =
> at
> > http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> > You're subscribed to this list with the email =
> hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> > For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
> >
> >
> > --=20
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date: =
> 29/12/2005
> >
> >=20
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are =
> at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> You're subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date: =
> 29/12/2005
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are =
> at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> You're subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> You're subscribed to this list with the email kenpalmerton@cix.co.uk
> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C60E51.90F12360
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>That's a very interesting paper, =
> Martin, as are=20
> all your pieces. Thanks. I don't think it hurts to =
> explore some=20
> of the ideas of others in comparison to those of Douglas. =20
> </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>In Soddy I see some similarities with =
> Douglas, but=20
> different terminology and concepts. And objective. Soddy seems to =
> be more=20
> in favour of a 'stable price level' than a constantly 'falling'=20
> one. As Douglas envisioned through an application
> =
>
> of credit enabling all the benefits of continually advancing=20
> technology to be accessed 'financially' by consumers in the =
> provision of=20
> desired product, As well as provision for increased=20
> leisure . </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating =
> credit for=20
> spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer' credits =
> to=20
> individuals. Is this a large part of the reason why many =
> find=20
> 'government' infrastructure spending in a slump so =
> attractive? =20
> To try to keep up the price level? </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I guess it's difficult for many to initially=20
> envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold for less than =
> financial cost=20
> on an ongoing basis without businesses being ruined, Simply=20
> through the employment of a different technique of=20
> credit. But I think true 'consumer' demand made=20
> ''effective demand'' would then create renewed economic =
> activity far=20
> more effectively than 'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever=20
> will. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial> I've nothing against 'needed' =
> infrastructure being=20
> built, but not as 'make work' projects to provide an unnecessary 'moral' =
> reason=20
> for paying people an 'income'. As well as =
> a means of=20
> keeping them 'under control'. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to =
> me in that=20
> regard~ he seems concerned to keep everyone =
> 'working'. The=20
> goal of a triumph of the individual's 'will-to-freedom' over =
> the=20
> 'will-to-power' externally imposed economically on=20
> him, something so prevalent in Douglas, seems to =
> be absent=20
> with Soddy. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial> I get the impression from what you've =
> written and=20
> quoted he thinks the 'government' knows =
> best. Personally,=20
> I think once we get Douglas completely figured out, Soddy =
> will best=20
> remain remembered for discovering isotopes.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Joe</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV=20
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
> black"><B>From:</B>=20
> <A title=3Dhattersleyjm@interbaun.com=20
> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> =
> </DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
> </DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 29, =
> 2005 7:02=20
> PM</DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
> Putting it=20
> all together</DIV>
> <DIV><BR></DIV>I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late =
> Professor=20
> Soddy for the <BR>Eastern Economics Association. I think Soddy's =
> description=20
> of the "J curve" <BR>phenomenon essentially describes the problem we =
> have to=20
> tackle.<BR><BR>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St.,<BR>EDMONTON
> AB=20
> CANADA<BR>Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A=20
> =
> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
> <BR>-----=20
> Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Joe Thomson"=20
> <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca><BR>To: =
> <socialcredit@elistas.com><BR>Sent:=20
> Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] =
> Putting it=20
> all together<BR><BR><BR>>I agree with a great deal of what Martin =
> has=20
> written identifying the<BR>> problems, but I do not fully concur =
> with some=20
> of the solutions. This may<BR>> well be due to a lack of =
> knowledge on=20
> my part, or that I'm reading into <BR>> what<BR>> Martin's =
> proposing=20
> something that isn't intended by him. But there are <BR>>=20
> some<BR>> concerns I have with some of what's proposed =
> nevertheless. =20
> I'll come back<BR>> to them later, but for the moment I'd like to =
> comment=20
> on just this.<BR>><BR>> (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this =
> initial=20
> expression of the theorem omitted<BR>> was the fact =
> that<BR>>>=20
> certain industries distribute wages to their workers, while not=20
> putting<BR>>> goods on the market for immediate sale to =
> consumers. These=20
> are the<BR>> factories<BR>>> that make the tools that workers =
> will=20
> later use to turn out actual<BR>> products.<BR>>> While this =
> new=20
> capital formation is taking place, its distribution of<BR>>=20
> funds<BR>>> to consumers in wages and dividends, particularly =
> when=20
> financed by newly<BR>>> created bank credit, serves as a form of =
>
> National Dividend that makes it<BR>>> possible for the consuming =
> public=20
> to buy all that is on the market for<BR>> sale,<BR>>> without =
>
> producers being forced to sell below cost.<BR>><BR>> (Joe=20
> replies:-) There is a quote in one of the early Douglas books=20
> that<BR>> remarks " ....just as the construction of a new =
> railway=20
> bridge raises the<BR>> price of bacon in a village shop." =
> While there=20
> is no doubt that 'newly<BR>> created bank credit' to finance new =
> works=20
> serves as you say, however it is<BR>> also, I think, true what =
> Douglas=20
> says.<BR>><BR>> He notes that the upper limit of price is =
> governed=20
> roughly by the <BR>> 'quantity<BR>> theory of money'. The lower =
> by=20
> financial 'cost'. If there's 'more money<BR>> about' the =
> merchant is=20
> going to try and get 'more' of it. He has to, if<BR>> =
> he's to=20
> stay in business. Simply because the fact there IS 'more =
> money<BR>>=20
> about' has diluted the purchasing power of ALL money =
> about.<BR>><BR>> He=20
> is selling in the hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank lends=20
> at<BR>> interest in hopes of the same. But money is variable =
> in what=20
> it will <BR>> 'buy',<BR>> and he has to continually =
> replace and,=20
> if selling more, increase, his <BR>> stock<BR>> in trade. =
> (Just as=20
> a bank has to increase its 'stock', its 'deposits' or<BR>> whatever =
> else=20
> we've been foolish enough to allow it to use as its <BR>> =
> reserves,<BR>>=20
> if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to doing this ~ banks=20
> 'pay'<BR>> interest as well as receive it. And 'more' interest when =
> they=20
> want more<BR>> deposits.)<BR>><BR>> If the stock the merchant =
> buys=20
> has risen in price, what he might have <BR>> taken<BR>> for =
> himself in=20
> profit is diminished. It goes back to fund the new stock, =
> <BR>>=20
> or<BR>> he has to take out a larger overdraft to do so. His =
> sales may=20
> be rising,<BR>> and so in terms of dollars may be his profit. =
> But the=20
> RATE of profit in<BR>> ratio to that increase in sales taken=20
> over time is in continuing <BR>> decline.<BR>> 'Interest' =
> and=20
> 'profit', considered in the business sense, are exactly the<BR>>=20
> same. One of the components of 'interest', as we've seen, is =
> allowance=20
> <BR>> for<BR>> 'inflation'. One of the components of =
> 'profit'=20
> would likely then have to <BR>> be<BR>> the same. It is =
> why I=20
> believe Douglas noted that "large works on <BR>> completion<BR>> =
> are=20
> paid for by an expansion of credit." The words "on completion"=20
> imply<BR>> there must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that =
> which=20
> took place <BR>> to<BR>> initiate the construction of those =
> 'large=20
> works'. The 'inflation' is<BR>> continuous, and the community =
> pays=20
> for its progress twice. Unless there <BR>> is<BR>> an=20
> implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon we can finally begin =
> <BR>>=20
> to<BR>> enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the proper =
> decline in=20
> overall<BR>> retail prices that capital appreciation should =
> have =20
> brought about.<BR>><BR>>=20
> =
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>=
> >=20
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are=20
> at<BR>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<;BR>> You're =
>
> subscribed to this list with the email =
> hattersleyjm@interbaun.com<BR>> For=20
> more information, visit=20
> http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit<;BR>><BR>><BR>> -- =
> <BR>>=20
> No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>> Checked by AVG Free=20
> Edition.<BR>> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - =
> Release=20
> Date: 29/12/2005<BR>><BR>>=20
> =
> <BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------=
> --------<BR>Some=20
> introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are=20
> at<BR>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<;BR>You're =
> subscribed to=20
> this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca<BR>For more information, =
> visit=20
> http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit<;BR>
> <P>
> <HR>
>
> <P></P>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>Checked by AVG Free =
>
> Edition.<BR>Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release =
> Date:=20
> =
> 29/12/2005<BR><BR><BR>---------------------------------------------------=
> ------------------<BR>Some=20
> introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are=20
> at<BR>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<;BR>You're =
> subscribed to=20
> this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca<BR>For more information, =
> visit=20
> =
> http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit<;BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
>
>
<p><pre>-------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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Re: [socialcredit]
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