|
Hi Martin
Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those references. John Rawson says
he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", so I will be able to access
that volume. John and I have been friends and fellow workers in the Socred
Movement in NZ for over 20 years. I joined the movement in 1980 after retiring
from the Army. I was unable to do so prior to this because serving Army Officers
are forbidden by law to be members of a political organisation in NZ. John and I
began working together in 1984 when I moved to Northland NZ. I appreciate all
the comments made by members of the forum on monetary reform matters. Incidently
I have a brother in Singapore who, although he has no connection to the Socerd
movement, has moved into the monetary reform camp. He compared the way Singapore
and Malaysia handled the "Monetary Crisis" of the late 1980's to that of
countries that begged funding from the IMF and World Bank. Those who borrowed
from the IMF are still in crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia are flourishing.
this contrasts to Indonesia where a country rich in natural resources cannot
provide for its people because of crippling debt requirements. When he retires
he intends to broadcast his findings in an attempt to educate people to the scam
of international banking.
Bill Mc
Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:27
AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together
I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and
Debt", that was reprinted by Omni Publications in California quite some time
ago - I'm not sure that they are still in business. I could perhaps ask Wally
Klinck to scan it for me and send you a copy, though that's a bit of a tall
order..
I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and there are
several references to Soddy and his writings there. I think you might follow
that route up and get what you are looking for. Good Luck!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:05
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together
Hi Martin
Where can I obtain copies of the work of Professor Soddy? The paper you
created in 1988 was of great interest to me, and followed much of the
thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on the monetary reform matters.
I certainly
agree that the monetary concepts that govern so called "modern economics"
definitely do not cope with the ever
increasing debt problem, and its stiffling effect on human development.
Effectively we have a monetary system developed in the 15th century geared
to the selfish needs of Italian single city states trying to cope with a
global economy that requires global equity of opportunity to access
finance. The situation is unstable, hence we have want and starvation in a
world of plenty.
Bill Mc Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:44
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together
Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for his
discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another way of looking at
A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas holus bolus.
There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and
Douglas's price discount is the neatest way of balancing production
with demand, without demanding unnecessary work from anyone, that I know
of - a definitely better alternative.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005
10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together
That's a very interesting paper,
Martin, as are all your pieces. Thanks. I don't
think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others in comparison to
those of Douglas.
In Soddy I see some similarities with
Douglas, but different terminology and concepts. And objective.
Soddy seems to be more in favour of a 'stable price level' than a
constantly 'falling' one. As Douglas envisioned
through an application of credit enabling all the benefits of
continually advancing technology to be accessed 'financially' by
consumers in the provision of desired product, As well as provision
for increased leisure .
Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating credit
for spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer'
credits to individuals. Is this a large part of the
reason why many find 'government' infrastructure
spending in a slump so attractive? To try to keep up the
price level?
I guess it's difficult for many to initially
envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold for less than
financial cost on an ongoing basis without businesses being
ruined, Simply through the employment of a
different technique of credit. But I think
true 'consumer' demand made ''effective demand'' would then
create renewed economic activity far more effectively than
'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever will.
I've nothing against 'needed' infrastructure
being built, but not as 'make work' projects to provide an unnecessary
'moral' reason for paying people an 'income'. As well as
a means of keeping them 'under control'.
Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to me
in that regard~ he seems concerned to keep everyone
'working'. The goal of a triumph of the individual's
'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power' externally imposed
economically on him, something so prevalent in Douglas,
seems to be absent with Soddy.
I get the impression from what you've
written and quoted he thinks the 'government' knows
best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas
completely figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered for
discovering isotopes.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005
7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late
Professor Soddy for the
Eastern Economics Association. I think
Soddy's description of the "J curve"
phenomenon essentially
describes the problem we have to tackle.
Martin
Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
-----
Original Message -----
From: "Joe Thomson"
<thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005
9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all
together
>I agree with a great deal of what Martin has
written identifying the
> problems, but I do not fully concur
with some of the solutions. This may
> well be due to a
lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm reading into
>
what
> Martin's proposing something that isn't intended by
him. But there are
> some
> concerns I have with
some of what's proposed nevertheless. I'll come back
> to
them later, but for the moment I'd like to comment on just
this.
>
> (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this initial
expression of the theorem omitted
> was the fact
that
>> certain industries distribute wages to their workers,
while not putting
>> goods on the market for immediate sale
to consumers. These are the
> factories
>> that make
the tools that workers will later use to turn out actual
>
products.
>> While this new capital formation is taking
place, its distribution of
> funds
>> to consumers in
wages and dividends, particularly when financed by newly
>>
created bank credit, serves as a form of National Dividend that makes
it
>> possible for the consuming public to buy all that is on
the market for
> sale,
>> without producers being
forced to sell below cost.
>
> (Joe replies:-) There
is a quote in one of the early Douglas books that
>
remarks " ....just as the construction of a new railway bridge
raises the
> price of bacon in a village shop." While
there is no doubt that 'newly
> created bank credit' to finance
new works serves as you say, however it is
> also, I think, true
what Douglas says.
>
> He notes that the upper limit of
price is governed roughly by the
> 'quantity
> theory of
money'. The lower by financial 'cost'. If there's 'more
money
> about' the merchant is going to try and get 'more' of
it. He has to, if
> he's to stay in business.
Simply because the fact there IS 'more money
> about' has
diluted the purchasing power of ALL money about.
>
> He is
selling in the hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank lends
at
> interest in hopes of the same. But money is variable
in what it will
> 'buy',
> and he has to
continually replace and, if selling more, increase, his
>
stock
> in trade. (Just as a bank has to increase its
'stock', its 'deposits' or
> whatever else we've been foolish
enough to allow it to use as its
> reserves,
> if it
wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to doing this ~ banks
'pay'
> interest as well as receive it. And 'more' interest when
they want more
> deposits.)
>
> If the stock the
merchant buys has risen in price, what he might have
>
taken
> for himself in profit is diminished. It goes back
to fund the new stock,
> or
> he has to take out a larger
overdraft to do so. His sales may be rising,
> and so in
terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE of profit
in
> ratio to that increase in sales taken over time
is in continuing
> decline.
> 'Interest' and 'profit',
considered in the business sense, are exactly the
> same.
One of the components of 'interest', as we've seen, is allowance
> for
> 'inflation'. One of the components of
'profit' would likely then have to
> be
> the same.
It is why I believe Douglas noted that "large works on
>
completion
> are paid for by an expansion of credit." The
words "on completion" imply
> there must be a FURTHER expansion
of credit beyond that which took place
> to
> initiate
the construction of those 'large works'. The 'inflation'
is
> continuous, and the community pays for its progress
twice. Unless there
> is
> an implimentation of the
SC prescription, whereupon we can finally begin
> to
>
enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the proper decline in
overall
> retail prices that capital appreciation should
have brought about.
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> You're
subscribed to this list with the email
hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> For more information, visit
http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by
AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database:
267.14.9/216 - Release Date: 29/12/2005
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some
introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're
subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
For more
information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free
Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release
Date:
29/12/2005
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some
introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're
subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
For more
information, visit
http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free
Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.10/218 - Release
Date: 02/01/2006
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free
Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.10/218 - Release
Date:
02/01/2006
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some
introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to
this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
For more information,
visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free
Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.11/219 - Release Date:
02/01/2006
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free
Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.11/219 - Release Date:
02/01/2006
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some
introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to
this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
For more information, visit
http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
|
Re: [socialcredit]
Reply to this message
