| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together | | Date: | Thursday, January 5, 2006 16:20:39 (-0700) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <hattersleyjm @.........com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 3313 (written by W. McGunnigle) |
Bill -
Thanks for all the background.
I ordered a copy of Michel Chossudovsky's "Globalization of Poverty", and his
comments on the work of the IMF, WTO and World Bank make them look more like a
criminal conspiracy to take over the world by putting countries through the "race
to the bottom" in the name of "free enterprise" than any sort of organizations
devoted to the public good.
Makes me sad to see that New Zealand (which used to get worried if unemployment
went over 1%) has now joined the ranks of the indebted "have nots". It seems as
if the Democratic-Social Credit party bombed badly in the past election,
presumably because the electorate either didn't understand or didn't want
monetary reform. Any comments or explanations of this?
All the best for 2006 -
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St. Edmonton AB Canada
Phone (780)423-2081; Fax (780)425-5247
e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca;
hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: W. McGunnigle
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Hi Martin
Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those references.
John Rawson says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", so I will be
able to access that volume. John and I have been friends and fellow workers in
the Socred Movement in NZ for over 20 years. I joined the movement in 1980 after
retiring from the Army. I was unable to do so prior to this because serving Army
Officers are forbidden by law to be members of a political organisation in NZ.
John and I began working together in 1984 when I moved to Northland NZ. I
appreciate all the comments made by members of the forum on monetary reform
matters. Incidently I have a brother in Singapore who, although he has no
connection to the Socerd movement, has moved into the monetary reform camp. He
compared the way Singapore and Malaysia handled the "Monetary Crisis" of the late
1980's to that of countries that begged funding from the IMF and World Bank.
Those who borrowed from the IMF are still in crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia
are flourishing. this contrasts to Indonesia where a country rich in natural
resources cannot provide for its people because of crippling debt requirements.
When he retires he intends to broadcast his findings in an attempt to educate
people to the scam of international banking.
Bill Mc Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Hattersley
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", that was
reprinted by Omni Publications in California quite some time ago - I'm not sure
that they are still in business. I could perhaps ask Wally Klinck to scan it for
me and send you a copy, though that's a bit of a tall order..
I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and there are several
references to Soddy and his writings there. I think you might follow that route
up and get what you are looking for. Good Luck!
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: W. McGunnigle
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Hi Martin
Where can I obtain copies of the work of Professor Soddy?
The paper you created in 1988 was of great interest to me, and followed much of
the thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on the monetary reform matters.
I certainly agree that the monetary concepts that govern so called
"modern economics" definitely do not cope with the ever increasing debt
problem, and its stiffling effect on human development. Effectively we have a
monetary system developed in the 15th century geared to the selfish needs of
Italian single city states trying to cope with a global economy that requires
global equity of opportunity to access finance. The situation is unstable, hence
we have want and starvation in a world of plenty.
Bill Mc Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Hattersley
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for his discussion of the
"J curve", which I think is another way of looking at A+B, rather than for
adopting his ideas holus bolus.
There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and Douglas's price discount
is the neatest way of balancing production with demand, without demanding
unnecessary work from anyone, that I know of - a definitely better alternative.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Thomson
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
That's a very interesting paper, Martin, as are all your pieces.
Thanks. I don't think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others in
comparison to those of Douglas.
In Soddy I see some similarities with Douglas, but different
terminology and concepts. And objective. Soddy seems to be more in favour of a
'stable price level' than a constantly 'falling' one. As Douglas envisioned
through an application of credit enabling all the benefits of continually
advancing technology to be accessed 'financially' by consumers in the provision
of desired product, As well as provision for increased leisure .
Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating credit for spending on
infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer' credits to individuals. Is
this a large part of the reason why many find 'government' infrastructure
spending in a slump so attractive? To try to keep up the price level?
I guess it's difficult for many to initially envision how 'consumer'
goods could be sold for less than financial cost on an ongoing basis without
businesses being ruined, Simply through the employment of a different technique
of credit. But I think true 'consumer' demand made ''effective demand'' would
then create renewed economic activity far more effectively than 'infrastructure
spending' pump priming ever will.
I've nothing against 'needed' infrastructure being built, but not as
'make work' projects to provide an unnecessary 'moral' reason for paying people
an 'income'. As well as a means of keeping them 'under control'.
Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to me in that regard~ he seems
concerned to keep everyone 'working'. The goal of a triumph of the individual's
'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power' externally imposed economically on
him, something so prevalent in Douglas, seems to be absent with Soddy.
I get the impression from what you've written and quoted he thinks
the 'government' knows best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas completely
figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered for discovering isotopes.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Hattersley
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late Professor Soddy
for the
Eastern Economics Association. I think Soddy's description of the "J
curve"
phenomenon essentially describes the problem we have to tackle.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>I agree with a great deal of what Martin has written identifying
the
> problems, but I do not fully concur with some of the solutions.
This may
> well be due to a lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm reading
into
> what
> Martin's proposing something that isn't intended by him. But
there are
> some
> concerns I have with some of what's proposed nevertheless. I'll
come back
> to them later, but for the moment I'd like to comment on just
this.
>
> (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this initial expression of the theorem
omitted
> was the fact that
>> certain industries distribute wages to their workers, while not
putting
>> goods on the market for immediate sale to consumers. These are
the
> factories
>> that make the tools that workers will later use to turn out
actual
> products.
>> While this new capital formation is taking place, its
distribution of
> funds
>> to consumers in wages and dividends, particularly when financed
by newly
>> created bank credit, serves as a form of National Dividend that
makes it
>> possible for the consuming public to buy all that is on the
market for
> sale,
>> without producers being forced to sell below cost.
>
> (Joe replies:-) There is a quote in one of the early Douglas
books that
> remarks " ....just as the construction of a new railway bridge
raises the
> price of bacon in a village shop." While there is no doubt that
'newly
> created bank credit' to finance new works serves as you say,
however it is
> also, I think, true what Douglas says.
>
> He notes that the upper limit of price is governed roughly by the
> 'quantity
> theory of money'. The lower by financial 'cost'. If there's 'more
money
> about' the merchant is going to try and get 'more' of it. He has
to, if
> he's to stay in business. Simply because the fact there IS 'more
money
> about' has diluted the purchasing power of ALL money about.
>
> He is selling in the hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank
lends at
> interest in hopes of the same. But money is variable in what it
will
> 'buy',
> and he has to continually replace and, if selling more, increase,
his
> stock
> in trade. (Just as a bank has to increase its 'stock', its
'deposits' or
> whatever else we've been foolish enough to allow it to use as its
> reserves,
> if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to doing this ~
banks 'pay'
> interest as well as receive it. And 'more' interest when they want
more
> deposits.)
>
> If the stock the merchant buys has risen in price, what he might
have
> taken
> for himself in profit is diminished. It goes back to fund the new
stock,
> or
> he has to take out a larger overdraft to do so. His sales may be
rising,
> and so in terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE of
profit in
> ratio to that increase in sales taken over time is in continuing
> decline.
> 'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the business sense, are
exactly the
> same. One of the components of 'interest', as we've seen, is
allowance
> for
> 'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit' would likely then
have to
> be
> the same. It is why I believe Douglas noted that "large works on
> completion
> are paid for by an expansion of credit." The words "on
completion" imply
> there must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that which took
place
> to
> initiate the construction of those 'large works'. The 'inflation'
is
> continuous, and the community pays for its progress twice. Unless
there
> is
> an implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon we can finally
begin
> to
> enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the proper decline in
overall
> retail prices that capital appreciation should have brought
about.
>
>
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------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C61213.F7D7EE40
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR>
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bill -</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks for all the background.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I ordered a copy of Michel Chossudovsky's
"Globalization of Poverty", and his comments on the work of the IMF, WTO and
World Bank make them look more like a criminal conspiracy to take over the world
by putting countries through the "race to the bottom" in the name of "free
enterprise" than any sort of organizations devoted to the public
good.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Makes me sad to see that New Zealand (which used to
get worried if unemployment went over 1%) has now joined the ranks of the
indebted "have nots". It seems as if the Democratic-Social Credit party bombed
badly in the past election, presumably because the electorate either didn't
understand or didn't want monetary reform. Any comments or explanations of
this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>All the best for 2006 -</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St.
Edmonton AB Canada<BR>Phone (780)423-2081; Fax (780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:jmartinh@shaw.ca">jmartinh@shaw.ca</A>;<BR><A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz href="mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">W.
McGunnigle</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:29
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Martin </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those references. John Rawson
says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", so I will be able to
access that volume. John and I have been friends and fellow workers in the
Socred Movement in NZ for over 20 years. I joined the movement in 1980 after
retiring from the Army. I was unable to do so prior to this because serving
Army Officers are forbidden by law to be members of a political organisation
in NZ. John and I began working together in 1984 when I moved to Northland NZ.
I appreciate all the comments made by members of the forum on monetary reform
matters. Incidently I have a brother in Singapore who, although he has no
connection to the Socerd movement, has moved into the monetary reform camp. He
compared the way Singapore and Malaysia handled the "Monetary Crisis" of the
late 1980's to that of countries that begged funding from the IMF and World
Bank. Those who borrowed from the IMF are still in crisis, but Singapore and
Malaysia are flourishing. this contrasts to Indonesia where a country rich in
natural resources cannot provide for its people because of crippling debt
requirements. When he retires he intends to broadcast his findings in an
attempt to educate people to the scam of international banking.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> Bill Mc
Gunnigle</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:27
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and
Debt", that was reprinted by Omni Publications in California quite some time
ago - I'm not sure that they are still in business. I could perhaps ask
Wally Klinck to scan it for me and send you a copy, though that's a bit of a
tall order..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and there are
several references to Soddy and his writings there. I think you might follow
that route up and get what you are looking for. Good Luck!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB CANADA<BR>Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz href="mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">W.
McGunnigle</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 02, 2006 8:05
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Martin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
Where can I obtain copies of the work of Professor Soddy? The paper you
created in 1988 was of great interest to me, and followed much of the
thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on the monetary reform matters.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I certainly
agree that the monetary concepts that govern so called "modern economics"
definitely do not cope with</FONT> <FONT face=Arial size=2>the ever
increasing debt problem, and its stiffling effect on human development.
Effectively we have a monetary system developed in the 15th century geared
to the selfish needs of Italian single city states trying to cope with a
global economy that requires global equity of opportunity to access
finance. The situation is unstable, hence we have want and starvation in a
world of plenty.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Bill Mc Gunnigle</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 02, 2006 1:44
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for his
discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another way of looking at
A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas holus bolus. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and
Douglas's price discount is the neatest way of balancing
production with demand, without demanding unnecessary work from anyone,
that I know of - a definitely better alternative.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB
CANADA<BR>Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca href="mailto:thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca">Joe
Thomson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 31, 2005
10:31 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>That's a very interesting paper,
Martin, as are all your pieces. Thanks. I don't
think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others in comparison to
those of Douglas. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>In Soddy I see some similarities with
Douglas, but different terminology and concepts. And objective.
Soddy seems to be more in favour of a 'stable price level' than a
constantly 'falling' one. As Douglas envisioned
through an application of credit enabling all the benefits
of continually advancing technology to be accessed 'financially'
by consumers in the provision of desired product, As well
as provision for increased leisure .
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating
credit for spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free
'consumer' credits to individuals. Is this a large part of the
reason why many find 'government' infrastructure
spending in a slump so attractive? To try to keep up the
price level? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I guess it's difficult for many to initially
envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold for less than
financial cost on an ongoing basis without businesses being
ruined, Simply through the employment of a
different technique of credit. But I think
true 'consumer' demand made ''effective demand'' would then
create renewed economic activity far more effectively than
'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever will. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial> I've nothing against 'needed'
infrastructure being built, but not as 'make work' projects to provide
an unnecessary 'moral' reason for paying people an
'income'. As well as a means of
keeping them 'under control'. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to
me in that regard~ he seems concerned to keep everyone
'working'. The goal of a triumph of the individual's
'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power' externally imposed
economically on him, something so prevalent in
Douglas, seems to be absent with Soddy. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial> I get the impression from what you've
written and quoted he thinks the 'government' knows
best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas
completely figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered for
discovering isotopes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Joe</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 29,
2005 7:02 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late
Professor Soddy for the <BR>Eastern Economics Association. I think
Soddy's description of the "J curve" <BR>phenomenon essentially
describes the problem we have to tackle.<BR><BR>Martin
Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St.,<BR>EDMONTON AB CANADA<BR>Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A><BR>-----
Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Joe Thomson"
<thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca><BR>To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com><BR>Sent: Thursday, December 29,
2005 9:35 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all
together<BR><BR><BR>>I agree with a great deal of what Martin has
written identifying the<BR>> problems, but I do not fully concur
with some of the solutions. This may<BR>> well be due to a
lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm reading into <BR>>
what<BR>> Martin's proposing something that isn't intended by
him. But there are <BR>> some<BR>> concerns I have with
some of what's proposed nevertheless. I'll come back<BR>>
to them later, but for the moment I'd like to comment on just
this.<BR>><BR>> (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this
initial expression of the theorem omitted<BR>> was the fact
that<BR>>> certain industries distribute wages to their
workers, while not putting<BR>>> goods on the market for
immediate sale to consumers. These are the<BR>>
factories<BR>>> that make the tools that workers will later
use to turn out actual<BR>> products.<BR>>> While this new
capital formation is taking place, its distribution of<BR>>
funds<BR>>> to consumers in wages and dividends, particularly
when financed by newly<BR>>> created bank credit, serves as a
form of National Dividend that makes it<BR>>> possible for the
consuming public to buy all that is on the market for<BR>>
sale,<BR>>> without producers being forced to sell below
cost.<BR>><BR>> (Joe replies:-) There is a quote in one
of the early Douglas books that<BR>> remarks " ....just as
the construction of a new railway bridge raises the<BR>> price of
bacon in a village shop." While there is no doubt that
'newly<BR>> created bank credit' to finance new works serves as
you say, however it is<BR>> also, I think, true what Douglas
says.<BR>><BR>> He notes that the upper limit of price is
governed roughly by the <BR>> 'quantity<BR>> theory of money'.
The lower by financial 'cost'. If there's 'more money<BR>>
about' the merchant is going to try and get 'more' of
it. He has to, if<BR>> he's to stay in
business. Simply because the fact there IS 'more money<BR>>
about' has diluted the purchasing power of ALL money
about.<BR>><BR>> He is selling in the hopes of making a
profit. The same as a bank lends at<BR>> interest in hopes of the
same. But money is variable in what it will <BR>>
'buy',<BR>> and he has to continually replace and, if
selling more, increase, his <BR>> stock<BR>> in trade.
(Just as a bank has to increase its 'stock', its 'deposits'
or<BR>> whatever else we've been foolish enough to allow it to
use as its <BR>> reserves,<BR>> if it wants to lend 'more'.
There is a 'cost' to doing this ~ banks 'pay'<BR>> interest as
well as receive it. And 'more' interest when they want more<BR>>
deposits.)<BR>><BR>> If the stock the merchant buys has risen
in price, what he might have <BR>> taken<BR>> for himself in
profit is diminished. It goes back to fund the new stock,
<BR>> or<BR>> he has to take out a larger overdraft to do
so. His sales may be rising,<BR>> and so in terms of
dollars may be his profit. But the RATE of profit in<BR>>
ratio to that increase in sales taken over time is in
continuing <BR>> decline.<BR>> 'Interest' and 'profit',
considered in the business sense, are exactly the<BR>>
same. One of the components of 'interest', as we've seen, is
allowance <BR>> for<BR>> 'inflation'. One of the
components of 'profit' would likely then have to <BR>> be<BR>>
the same. It is why I believe Douglas noted that "large works
on <BR>> completion<BR>> are paid for by an expansion of
credit." The words "on completion" imply<BR>> there must be
a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that which took place <BR>>
to<BR>> initiate the construction of those 'large works'.
The 'inflation' is<BR>> continuous, and the community pays for
its progress twice. Unless there <BR>> is<BR>> an
implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon we can finally
begin <BR>> to<BR>> enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress
at the proper decline in overall<BR>> retail prices that capital
appreciation should have brought about.<BR>><BR>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
at<BR>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<;BR>>
You're subscribed to this list with the email
hattersleyjm@interbaun.com<BR>> For more information, visit
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