In-Reply-To: <008c01c61252$3c6ecb30$6400a8c0@cdv73pbgpo6eny>
Hi Wally.
Thank you for that.
When we look at the work of some other economists, it is, I think,
possible to do a bit of reading between the lines. The charge that can
then be levelled at a few, including Keynes and Galbraith, is cowardice.
For I believe that such as these KNOW what we know, their minor writings,
and personal contact lets the cat out of the bag, they speak with forked
tongue because they believe that if they do not, they will not be allowed
to speak at all :-(
They too have mortgages to pay :-(((
depressing as this is, it is an opportunity to refine our targetting at
the people and institutions that enforce this hypocrisy.
Ken.
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Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:46:23 -0700
From: "Wallace M. Klinck" <wmklinck@shaw.ca>
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
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References: <memo.6357@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
X-Envelope-To: kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk
X-UIDL: _vYB.VEovDB.mta03.mx
I attach for interested parties a two-page document by "C.J.H." entitled
"The Keynesian 'Revolution'" which outlines in brief the essential, and
fundamental, difference between Douglas and Keynes. Douglas intended to
establish a consumer motivated economy with maximization of immanent
sovereignty wherein automatic and increasing economic security is acquired
as of right by inheritance. Keynes provided for economic "security"
extended as a reward for work provided by increasing production, evermore
divorced from real human need or desires, financed by expansion of
unrepayable debt involving continuous inflation of the price-level and an
increasing burden of taxation. Douglas gave the ownership and control of
credit to the individual citizen, whereas, Keynes left the ownership and
control of credit in the hands of the financial powers (banking
institutions) and the state. Douglas provided for real and expanding
freedom for the individual. The consequence of Keynes's proposals has
been diminished human freedom at a price of increasing enslavement to the
production system. Douglas's policy allows for the expansion of the
individual human spirit; Keynes's policies ensure restriction of the human
spirit and its growing enforced subjugation to the philosophy of
materialism.
Wally Klinck
--- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> In-Reply-To: <BAY21-F4FF116B6FFAAC0415B06EBD2F0@phx.gbl>
> Hi John.
>
> Would you care to tell us a bit more about Kelliher please ? I believe I
> have some of his writings somewhere here.
>
> The name is known to me, but it would be useful to be able to put him
into> context from someone who knows :-)
>
> I think you are right about Soddy and A+B. But then he was not alone in
> nearly getting there, but not quite. In fact I believe that Keynes
himself> was in that category. He accepted a "gap", though only admitted
to it> being in the nature of a depreciation figure.
>
> As he was a consummate snob there was no way he, a hide bound academic
> intellectual, would admit to being upstaged by a heretic, and a non
> academic heretic at that :-(((
>
> I believe Keynes provided the thunder. But it was Douglas that gave the
> lightening.
>
> Ken.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
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> From: "John G Rawson" <johngrawson@hotmail.com>
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
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> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> X-Envelope-To: kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk
> X-UIDL: _lo.Pm5uDB.mta03.mx
>
> <html><div style='background-color:'><P>Bill, it might take a little
> finding, but I have a copy of his "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt".</P>
> <P>To me, basically he agreed with Douglas but did not accept the A+B
> model. However, he did attribute a small "gap" to savings. My
> assessment is that, while using different forms of expression, he
> underestimated it and Douglas overestimaterd it.</P>
> <P>Out of interest, when Kelliher was running his crusade for monetary
> reform via his paper the "Mirror", obviously he was of the Soddy
> school. Using this knowledge, I coached two girls at different
times> to win Kelliher essay prizes on banking etc., which were valuable
to their> university studies. I kept them away from SC, - until
> afterwards. One was my daughter Melissa, the other a Jewish
student.> The latter became an active member of our Youth Section in
Whangarei.</P>> <P>With our sort of knowledge, it was there for the taking
every four> years or so, with people trained by ordinary economics
teachers missing> out on what Kelliher wanted. But very few kids
could be > bothered.</P>
> <P>Regards. <FONT color=#339933 size=4>John R.</FONT></P>
> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
> BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
> style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
> <HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>
> From: <I>"W. McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz></I><BR>Reply-To:
> <I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>To:
> <I><socialcredit@elistas.com></I><BR>Subject: <I>Re: [socialcredit]
> Putting it all together</I><BR>Date: <I>Tue, 3 Jan 2006 16:05:08
> +1300</I><BR><BR><META content="Microsoft SafeHTML" name=Generator>
> <STYLE>
> </STYLE>
>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Martin</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial
> size=2>
> Where can I obtain copies of the work of
> Professor Soddy? The paper you created in 1988 was of great interest to
> me, and followed much of the thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on
> the monetary reform matters. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I certainly
> agree that the monetary concepts that govern so called "modern economics"
> definitely do not cope with</FONT> <FONT face=Arial size=2>the ever
> increasing debt problem, and its stiffling effect on human development.
> Effectively we have a monetary system developed in the 15th century
geared> to the selfish needs of Italian single city states trying to cope
with a> global economy that requires global equity of opportunity
to access> finance. The situation is unstable, hence we have want and
starvation in a> world of plenty.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Bill Mc Gunnigle</FONT></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px;
> MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
> black"><B>From:</B> <A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com>
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 02,
2006 1:44> PM</DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Putting
> it all together</DIV>
> <DIV><BR></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=2>Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for his
> discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another way of looking at
> A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas holus bolus. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=2>There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and
> Douglas's price discount is the neatest way of balancing production
> with demand, without demanding unnecessary work from anyone, that I know
> of - a definitely better alternative.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB
> CANADA<BR>Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
>
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DI
> V>
> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px;
> MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
> black"><B>From:</B> <A title=thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
> href="mailto:thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca">Joe Thomson</A> </DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com>
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 31,
2005> 10:31 PM</DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Putting
> it all together</DIV>
> <DIV><BR></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>That's a very interesting paper,
> Martin, as are all your pieces. Thanks. I don't
> think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others in comparison to
> those of Douglas. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>In Soddy I see some similarities with Douglas,
> but different terminology and concepts. And objective. Soddy seems
> to be more in favour of a 'stable price level' than a constantly
'falling'> one. As Douglas envisioned through an
application> of credit enabling all the benefits of continually
advancing> technology to be accessed 'financially' by consumers in
the provision> of desired product, As well as provision
for increased> leisure . </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating credit
> for spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer'
> credits to individuals. Is this a large part of the
> reason why many find 'government' infrastructure spending
> in a slump so attractive? To try to keep up the price
> level? </FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>I guess it's difficult for many to initially
> envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold for less than financial
> cost on an ongoing basis without businesses being
> ruined, Simply through the employment of a
> different technique of credit. But I think
> true 'consumer' demand made ''effective demand'' would then
> create renewed economic activity far more effectively than
> 'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever will. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial> I've nothing against 'needed' infrastructure
> being built, but not as 'make work' projects to provide an unnecessary
> 'moral' reason for paying people an 'income'. As well as
> a means of keeping them 'under control'. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to me
> in that regard~ he seems concerned to keep everyone
> 'working'. The goal of a triumph of the individual's
> 'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power' externally imposed
> economically on him, something so prevalent in Douglas,
> seems to be absent with Soddy. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial> I get the impression from what you've written
> and quoted he thinks the 'government' knows
> best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas completely
> figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered for discovering
> isotopes.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Joe</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px;
> MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
> black"><B>From:</B> <A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com>
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 29,
2005> 7:02 PM</DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Putting
> it all together</DIV>
> <DIV><BR></DIV>I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late
> Professor Soddy for the <BR>Eastern Economics Association. I think
Soddy's> description of the "J curve" <BR>phenomenon essentially describes
the> problem we have to tackle.<BR><BR>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99
> St.,<BR>EDMONTON AB CANADA<BR>Phone
> (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
>
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A><BR>
> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Joe Thomson"
> <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca><BR>To:
> <socialcredit@elistas.com><BR>Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005
9:35> AM<BR>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all
together<BR><BR><BR>>I> agree with a great deal of what Martin has
written identifying the<BR>>> problems, but I do not fully concur with
some of the solutions. This> may<BR>> well be due to a lack of
knowledge on my part, or that I'm> reading into <BR>> what<BR>>
Martin's proposing something that isn't> intended by him. But there
are <BR>> some<BR>> concerns I have> with some of what's proposed
nevertheless. I'll come back<BR>> to> them later, but for the
moment I'd like to comment on just> this.<BR>><BR>> (Martin
wrote:-) > 5. What this initial> expression of the theorem
omitted<BR>> was the fact that<BR>>>> certain industries
distribute wages to their workers, while not> putting<BR>>> goods on
the market for immediate sale to consumers.> These are the<BR>>
factories<BR>>> that make the tools that> workers will later use to
turn out actual<BR>> products.<BR>>>> While this new capital
formation is taking place, its distribution> of<BR>> funds<BR>>>
to consumers in wages and dividends,> particularly when financed by
newly<BR>>> created bank credit,> serves as a form of National
Dividend that makes it<BR>>> possible> for the consuming public to
buy all that is on the market for<BR>>> sale,<BR>>> without
producers being forced to sell below> cost.<BR>><BR>> (Joe
replies:-) There is a quote in one of the> early Douglas books
that<BR>> remarks " ....just as the> construction of a new
railway bridge raises the<BR>> price of bacon in> a village
shop." While there is no doubt that 'newly<BR>> created> bank
credit' to finance new works serves as you say, however it is<BR>>>
also, I think, true what Douglas says.<BR>><BR>> He notes that the>
upper limit of price is governed roughly by the <BR>>
'quantity<BR>>> theory of money'. The lower by financial 'cost'.
If there's 'more> money<BR>> about' the merchant is going to try and
get 'more' of> it. He has to, if<BR>> he's to stay in
business. > Simply because the fact there IS 'more money<BR>>
about' has diluted> the purchasing power of ALL money
about.<BR>><BR>> He is selling in> the hopes of making a profit. The
same as a bank lends at<BR>> interest> in hopes of the same. But
money is variable in what it will <BR>>> 'buy',<BR>> and he
has to continually replace and, if selling> more, increase, his <BR>>
stock<BR>> in trade. (Just as a bank> has to increase its
'stock', its 'deposits' or<BR>> whatever else we've> been foolish
enough to allow it to use as its <BR>> reserves,<BR>>> if it wants
to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to doing this ~ banks> 'pay'<BR>>
interest as well as receive it. And 'more' interest when> they want
more<BR>> deposits.)<BR>><BR>> If the stock the> merchant buys
has risen in price, what he might have <BR>>> taken<BR>> for himself
in profit is diminished. It goes back to> fund the new stock,
<BR>> or<BR>> he has to take out a larger> overdraft to do so.
His sales may be rising,<BR>> and so in terms> of dollars may be his
profit. But the RATE of profit in<BR>>> ratio to that increase
in sales taken over time is in> continuing <BR>>
decline.<BR>> 'Interest' and 'profit', considered> in the business
sense, are exactly the<BR>> same. One of the> components of
'interest', as we've seen, is allowance <BR>> for<BR>>>
'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit' would likely then>
have to <BR>> be<BR>> the same. It is why I believe Douglas>
noted that "large works on <BR>> completion<BR>> are paid for by an>
expansion of credit." The words "on completion" imply<BR>> there>
must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that which took place>
<BR>> to<BR>> initiate the construction of those 'large>
works'. The 'inflation' is<BR>> continuous, and the community>
pays for its progress twice. Unless there <BR>> is<BR>> an>
implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon we can finally begin>
<BR>> to<BR>> enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the>
proper decline in overall<BR>> retail prices that capital appreciation>
should have brought about.<BR>><BR>>>
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> <P><BR></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></div><br clear=all><hr>Need more
> speed? Get <a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMAENNZ/2755??PS=47575";
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