In-Reply-To: <004c01c61247$7534a440$cb6637d2@computer>
Hi Bill.
I would be most grateful if you would persuade your Singapore Brother to
make contact when he is ready to give out his feelings on the response of
Malaysia, in particular, to IMF pressure.
The reason is that much of the thinking that prompted Mahatir to raise his
proverbial two fingers came from the UK, and people that I am a tiny part
of here. Although he and his advisors only took on board and applied a
small bit of what we put to them at the time.
As you will know many of the communities that we here call the "Far
East"are difficult for westerners to comprehend, let alone penetrate, with
a result that the feedback has been less than complete since the Tigers
flexed their claws.
There is much we would like to know from that time onwards. Can you put us
in touch ?
Ken.
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From: "W. McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
References: <000501c60bee$9fe0a720$de5b22cf@martinh4>
<000e01c60c95$d2e7b9e0$bad44246@cc.shawcable.net>
<00bf01c60cef$b970c3d0$984722cf@martinh4>
<002801c60e94$9f60aea0$bad44246@cc.shawcable.net>
<00ab01c60f37$db424890$e423e5cf@martinh4>
<004801c61012$818a0640$b86437d2@computer>
<005e01c61093$de655e60$9c4722cf@martinh4>
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Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
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Hi Martin=20
Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those =
references. John Rawson says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth =
and Debt", so I will be able to access that volume. John and I have been =
friends and fellow workers in the Socred Movement in NZ for over 20 =
years. I joined the movement in 1980 after retiring from the Army. I was =
unable to do so prior to this because serving Army Officers are =
forbidden by law to be members of a political organisation in NZ. John =
and I began working together in 1984 when I moved to Northland NZ. I =
appreciate all the comments made by members of the forum on monetary =
reform matters. Incidently I have a brother in Singapore who, although =
he has no connection to the Socerd movement, has moved into the monetary =
reform camp. He compared the way Singapore and Malaysia handled the =
"Monetary Crisis" of the late 1980's to that of countries that begged =
funding from the IMF and World Bank. Those who borrowed from the IMF are =
still in crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia are flourishing. this =
contrasts to Indonesia where a country rich in natural resources cannot =
provide for its people because of crippling debt requirements. When he =
retires he intends to broadcast his findings in an attempt to educate =
people to the scam of international banking.
Bill Mc Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Martin Hattersley=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", that =
was reprinted by Omni Publications in California quite some time ago - =
I'm not sure that they are still in business. I could perhaps ask Wally =
Klinck to scan it for me and send you a copy, though that's a bit of a =
tall order..
I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and there are several =
references to Soddy and his writings there. I think you might follow =
that route up and get what you are looking for. Good Luck!
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,=20
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: W. McGunnigle=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Hi Martin
Where can I obtain copies of the work of Professor =
Soddy? The paper you created in 1988 was of great interest to me, and =
followed much of the thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on the =
monetary reform matters.=20
I certainly agree that the monetary concepts that govern so =
called "modern economics" definitely do not cope with the ever =
increasing debt problem, and its stiffling effect on human development. =
Effectively we have a monetary system developed in the 15th century =
geared to the selfish needs of Italian single city states trying to cope =
with a global economy that requires global equity of opportunity to =
access finance. The situation is unstable, hence we have want and =
starvation in a world of plenty.
Bill Mc Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Martin Hattersley=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for his discussion =
of the "J curve", which I think is another way of looking at A+B, rather =
than for adopting his ideas holus bolus.=20
There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and Douglas's price =
discount is the neatest way of balancing production with demand, =
without demanding unnecessary work from anyone, that I know of - a =
definitely better alternative.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,=20
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Joe Thomson=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
That's a very interesting paper, Martin, as are all your pieces. =
Thanks. I don't think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others =
in comparison to those of Douglas. =20
In Soddy I see some similarities with Douglas, but different =
terminology and concepts. And objective. Soddy seems to be more in =
favour of a 'stable price level' than a constantly 'falling' one. As =
Douglas envisioned through an application of credit enabling all the =
benefits of continually advancing technology to be accessed =
'financially' by consumers in the provision of desired product, As well =
as provision for increased leisure . =20
Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating credit for spending =
on infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer' credits to =
individuals. Is this a large part of the reason why many find =
'government' infrastructure spending in a slump so attractive? To try =
to keep up the price level? =20
I guess it's difficult for many to initially envision how =
'consumer' goods could be sold for less than financial cost on an =
ongoing basis without businesses being ruined, Simply through the =
employment of a different technique of credit. But I think true =
'consumer' demand made ''effective demand'' would then create renewed =
economic activity far more effectively than 'infrastructure spending' =
pump priming ever will.=20
I've nothing against 'needed' infrastructure being built, but =
not as 'make work' projects to provide an unnecessary 'moral' reason for =
paying people an 'income'. As well as a means of keeping them 'under =
control'.=20
Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to me in that regard~ he =
seems concerned to keep everyone 'working'. The goal of a triumph of =
the individual's 'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power' externally =
imposed economically on him, something so prevalent in Douglas, seems =
to be absent with Soddy. =20
I get the impression from what you've written and quoted he =
thinks the 'government' knows best. Personally, I think once we get =
Douglas completely figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered for =
discovering isotopes.
Joe
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Martin Hattersley=20
To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late Professor =
Soddy for the=20
Eastern Economics Association. I think Soddy's description of =
the "J curve"=20
phenomenon essentially describes the problem we have to =
tackle.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>I agree with a great deal of what Martin has written =
identifying the
> problems, but I do not fully concur with some of the =
solutions. This may
> well be due to a lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm =
reading into=20
> what
> Martin's proposing something that isn't intended by him. =
But there are=20
> some
> concerns I have with some of what's proposed nevertheless. =
I'll come back
> to them later, but for the moment I'd like to comment on =
just this.
>
> (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this initial expression of the =
theorem omitted
> was the fact that
>> certain industries distribute wages to their workers, while =
not putting
>> goods on the market for immediate sale to consumers. These =
are the
> factories
>> that make the tools that workers will later use to turn out =
actual
> products.
>> While this new capital formation is taking place, its =
distribution of
> funds
>> to consumers in wages and dividends, particularly when =
financed by newly
>> created bank credit, serves as a form of National Dividend =
that makes it
>> possible for the consuming public to buy all that is on the =
market for
> sale,
>> without producers being forced to sell below cost.
>
> (Joe replies:-) There is a quote in one of the early =
Douglas books that
> remarks " ....just as the construction of a new railway =
bridge raises the
> price of bacon in a village shop." While there is no doubt =
that 'newly
> created bank credit' to finance new works serves as you say, =
however it is
> also, I think, true what Douglas says.
>
> He notes that the upper limit of price is governed roughly =
by the=20
> 'quantity
> theory of money'. The lower by financial 'cost'. If there's =
'more money
> about' the merchant is going to try and get 'more' of it. =
He has to, if
> he's to stay in business. Simply because the fact there IS =
'more money
> about' has diluted the purchasing power of ALL money about.
>
> He is selling in the hopes of making a profit. The same as a =
bank lends at
> interest in hopes of the same. But money is variable in =
what it will=20
> 'buy',
> and he has to continually replace and, if selling more, =
increase, his=20
> stock
> in trade. (Just as a bank has to increase its 'stock', its =
'deposits' or
> whatever else we've been foolish enough to allow it to use =
as its=20
> reserves,
> if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to doing this =
~ banks 'pay'
> interest as well as receive it. And 'more' interest when =
they want more
> deposits.)
>
> If the stock the merchant buys has risen in price, what he =
might have=20
> taken
> for himself in profit is diminished. It goes back to fund =
the new stock,=20
> or
> he has to take out a larger overdraft to do so. His sales =
may be rising,
> and so in terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE =
of profit in
> ratio to that increase in sales taken over time is in =
continuing=20
> decline.
> 'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the business sense, =
are exactly the
> same. One of the components of 'interest', as we've seen, =
is allowance=20
> for
> 'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit' would likely =
then have to=20
> be
> the same. It is why I believe Douglas noted that "large =
works on=20
> completion
> are paid for by an expansion of credit." The words "on =
completion" imply
> there must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that =
which took place=20
> to
> initiate the construction of those 'large works'. The =
'inflation' is
> continuous, and the community pays for its progress twice. =
Unless there=20
> is
> an implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon we can =
finally begin=20
> to
> enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the proper =
decline in overall
> retail prices that capital appreciation should have brought =
about.
>
> =
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> You're subscribed to this list with the email =
hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> For more information, visit =
http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>
>
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Martin </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> &nb
sp;&nbs=
p; =20
Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those references. John =
Rawson says=20
he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", so I will be able to =
access=20
that volume. John and I have been friends and fellow workers in the =
Socred=20
Movement in NZ for over 20 years. I joined the movement in 1980 after =
retiring=20
from the Army. I was unable to do so prior to this because serving Army =
Officers=20
are forbidden by law to be members of a political organisation in NZ. =
John and I=20
began working together in 1984 when I moved to Northland NZ. I =
appreciate all=20
the comments made by members of the forum on monetary reform matters. =
Incidently=20
I have a brother in Singapore who, although he has no connection to the =
Socerd=20
movement, has moved into the monetary reform camp. He compared the way =
Singapore=20
and Malaysia handled the "Monetary Crisis" of the late 1980's to that of =
countries that begged funding from the IMF and World Bank. Those who =
borrowed=20
from the IMF are still in crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia are =
flourishing.=20
this contrasts to Indonesia where a country rich in natural resources =
cannot=20
provide for its people because of crippling debt requirements. When he =
retires=20
he intends to broadcast his findings in an attempt to educate people to =
the scam=20
of international banking.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> Bill
Mc=20
Gunnigle</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dhattersleyjm@interbaun.com=20
href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 04, =
2006 7:27=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
Putting it=20
all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual =
Wealth and=20
Debt", that was reprinted by Omni Publications in California quite =
some time=20
ago - I'm not sure that they are still in business. I could perhaps =
ask Wally=20
Klinck to scan it for me and send you a copy, though that's a bit of a =
tall=20
order..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and =
there are=20
several references to Soddy and his writings there. I think you might =
follow=20
that route up and get what you are looking for. Good =
Luck!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB =
CANADA<BR>Phone=20
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dwmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz =
href=3D"mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">W.=20
McGunnigle</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 02, =
2006 8:05=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
Putting it=20
all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Martin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2> &nb
sp;&nbs=
p; =20
Where can I obtain copies of the work of Professor Soddy? The paper =
you=20
created in 1988 was of great interest to me, and followed much of =
the=20
thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on the monetary reform =
matters.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I =
certainly=20
agree that the monetary concepts that govern so called "modern =
economics"=20
definitely do not cope with</FONT> <FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>the ever=20
increasing debt problem, and its stiffling effect on human =
development.=20
Effectively we have a monetary system developed in the 15th century =
geared=20
to the selfish needs of Italian single city states trying to cope =
with a=20
global economy that requires global equity of opportunity =
to access=20
finance. The situation is unstable, hence we have want and =
starvation in a=20
world of plenty.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Bill Mc =
Gunnigle</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dhattersleyjm@interbaun.com=20
href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 02, =
2006 1:44=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
Putting=20
it all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more =
for his=20
discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another way of =
looking at=20
A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas holus bolus. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>There are more ways than one to skin a cat, =
and=20
Douglas's price discount is the neatest way of balancing =
production=20
with demand, without demanding unnecessary work from anyone, that =
I know=20
of - a definitely better alternative.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB=20
CANADA<BR>Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dthomsonhiyu@shaw.ca =
href=3D"mailto:thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca">Joe=20
Thomson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December =
31, 2005=20
10:31 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[socialcredit] Putting=20
it all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>That's a very interesting paper,=20
Martin, as are all your pieces. Thanks. I =
don't=20
think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others in =
comparison to=20
those of Douglas. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>In Soddy I see some similarities =
with=20
Douglas, but different terminology and concepts. And =
objective.=20
Soddy seems to be more in favour of a 'stable price level' than =
a=20
constantly 'falling' one. As Douglas =
envisioned=20
through an application of credit enabling all the =
benefits of=20
continually advancing technology to be =
accessed 'financially' by=20
consumers in the provision of desired product, As well =
as provision=20
for increased leisure . </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Soddy seems to prefer 'government' =
creating credit=20
for spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free =
'consumer'=20
credits to individuals. Is this a large part of the=20
reason why many find 'government' infrastructure =
spending in a slump so attractive? To try to keep up =
the=20
price level? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I guess it's difficult for many to =
initially=20
envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold for less than=20
financial cost on an ongoing basis without businesses being=20
ruined, Simply through the employment of a=20
different technique of credit. But I think =
true 'consumer' demand made ''effective demand'' =
would then=20
create renewed economic activity far more effectively than =
'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever =
will. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial> I've nothing against 'needed' =
infrastructure=20
being built, but not as 'make work' projects to provide an =
unnecessary=20
'moral' reason for paying people an 'income'. As =
well as=20
a means of keeping them 'under control'. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Soddy sounds like a bit of a =
'puritan' to me=20
in that regard~ he seems concerned to keep everyone=20
'working'. The goal of a triumph of the =
individual's=20
'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power' externally =
imposed=20
economically on him, something so prevalent in =
Douglas,=20
seems to be absent with Soddy. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial> I get the impression from what =
you've=20
written and quoted he thinks the 'government' knows=20
best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas=20
completely figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered =
for=20
discovering isotopes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Joe</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dhattersleyjm@interbaun.com=20
href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin =
Hattersley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, =
December 29, 2005=20
7:02 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[socialcredit]=20
Putting it all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the =
late=20
Professor Soddy for the <BR>Eastern Economics Association. I =
think=20
Soddy's description of the "J curve" <BR>phenomenon =
essentially=20
describes the problem we have to tackle.<BR><BR>Martin=20
Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St.,<BR>EDMONTON AB =
CANADA<BR>Phone=20
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
<BR>-----=20
Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Joe Thomson"=20
<thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca><BR>To:=20
<socialcredit@elistas.com><BR>Sent: Thursday, December =
29, 2005=20
9:35 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all=20
together<BR><BR><BR>>I agree with a great deal of what =
Martin has=20
written identifying the<BR>> problems, but I do not fully =
concur=20
with some of the solutions. This may<BR>> well be due =
to a=20
lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm reading into =
<BR>>=20
what<BR>> Martin's proposing something that isn't intended =
by=20
him. But there are <BR>> some<BR>> concerns I have =
with=20
some of what's proposed nevertheless. I'll come =
back<BR>> to=20
them later, but for the moment I'd like to comment on just=20
this.<BR>><BR>> (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this =
initial=20
expression of the theorem omitted<BR>> was the fact=20
that<BR>>> certain industries distribute wages to their =
workers,=20
while not putting<BR>>> goods on the market for =
immediate sale=20
to consumers. These are the<BR>> factories<BR>>> that =
make=20
the tools that workers will later use to turn out =
actual<BR>>=20
products.<BR>>> While this new capital formation is =
taking=20
place, its distribution of<BR>> funds<BR>>> to =
consumers in=20
wages and dividends, particularly when financed by =
newly<BR>>>=20
created bank credit, serves as a form of National Dividend =
that makes=20
it<BR>>> possible for the consuming public to buy all =
that is on=20
the market for<BR>> sale,<BR>>> without producers =
being=20
forced to sell below cost.<BR>><BR>> (Joe =
replies:-) There=20
is a quote in one of the early Douglas books that<BR>>=20
remarks " ....just as the construction of a new railway =
bridge=20
raises the<BR>> price of bacon in a village shop." =
While=20
there is no doubt that 'newly<BR>> created bank credit' to =
finance=20
new works serves as you say, however it is<BR>> also, I =
think, true=20
what Douglas says.<BR>><BR>> He notes that the upper =
limit of=20
price is governed roughly by the <BR>> 'quantity<BR>> =
theory of=20
money'. The lower by financial 'cost'. If there's 'more=20
money<BR>> about' the merchant is going to try and get =
'more' of=20
it. He has to, if<BR>> he's to stay in =
business. =20
Simply because the fact there IS 'more money<BR>> about' =
has=20
diluted the purchasing power of ALL money =
about.<BR>><BR>> He is=20
selling in the hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank =
lends=20
at<BR>> interest in hopes of the same. But money is =
variable=20
in what it will <BR>> 'buy',<BR>> and he has to=20
continually replace and, if selling more, increase, his =
<BR>>=20
stock<BR>> in trade. (Just as a bank has to increase =
its=20
'stock', its 'deposits' or<BR>> whatever else we've been =
foolish=20
enough to allow it to use as its <BR>> reserves,<BR>> if =
it=20
wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to doing this ~ banks=20
'pay'<BR>> interest as well as receive it. And 'more' =
interest when=20
they want more<BR>> deposits.)<BR>><BR>> If the stock =
the=20
merchant buys has risen in price, what he might have <BR>>=20
taken<BR>> for himself in profit is diminished. It =
goes back=20
to fund the new stock, <BR>> or<BR>> he has to take out =
a larger=20
overdraft to do so. His sales may be rising,<BR>> and =
so in=20
terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE of =
profit=20
in<BR>> ratio to that increase in sales taken =
over time=20
is in continuing <BR>> decline.<BR>> 'Interest' and =
'profit',=20
considered in the business sense, are exactly the<BR>> =
same. =20
One of the components of 'interest', as we've seen, is =
allowance=20
<BR>> for<BR>> 'inflation'. One of the components =
of=20
'profit' would likely then have to <BR>> be<BR>> the =
same. =20
It is why I believe Douglas noted that "large works on =
<BR>>=20
completion<BR>> are paid for by an expansion of =
credit." The=20
words "on completion" imply<BR>> there must be a FURTHER =
expansion=20
of credit beyond that which took place <BR>> to<BR>> =
initiate=20
the construction of those 'large works'. The 'inflation' =
is<BR>> continuous, and the community pays for its progress =
twice. Unless there <BR>> is<BR>> an =
implimentation of the=20
SC prescription, whereupon we can finally begin <BR>> =
to<BR>>=20
enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the proper =
decline in=20
overall<BR>> retail prices that capital appreciation should =
have brought about.<BR>><BR>>=20
=
---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>=
>=20
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this =
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http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<;BR>> You're=20
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