eListas - My Lists: socialcredit: Messages

Thanks, Ken. Sorry I couldn't give you more.
John R.

From: kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Kenneth Palmerton)
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
CC: kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 01:26 +0000 (GMT)
>In-Reply-To: <BAY21-F2183F3F8D8E797EE94DC25BD2E0@phx.gbl>
>Thank you John for that.
>
>It is amazing just how much interesting, or even valuable information on
>the progress, or otherwise, of monetary reform is inside peoples heads,
>and not written down.
>
>The biggest problem with people is that they have a nasty habit of dying
>off, taking their knowledge with them unrecorded :-(
>
>An example is of a man called Stoll. He was the owner of a string of
>theatres here in the UK. His name kept cropping up in the digging around
>that I am wont to do, but it was incredibly difficult to find any living
>person who had either heard of him, or has any information to contribute.
>
>Eventually I found that he had written a series of books on monetary
>reform, but again, I have not, so far, laid eyes on them.
>
>Again, I think there many other contributors to our body of knowledge in
>the same situation.
>
>Ken.
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>
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>From: "John G Rawson" <johngrawson@hotmail.com>
>To: socialcredit@elistas.com
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>
><html><div style='background-color:'>Greetings Ken.
>H.J. Kelliher was one of our more prominent industrialists.  I am
>embarassed in that I forget his particular product.He ran the
>Mirror Publishing Co, and produced the weekly "Mirror", in which he
>campaigned per editorials for monetary reform.  Once again, I am
>ignorant of the general form of the paper, but it was good enough to
>succeed.Her put forward a "loanable funds scheme" to our 1950's
>Royal Commission, the aim of which was to make the banks "borrow to lend".
>The Commission was about as enthusiastic about it as it was about the
>Social Credit submissions.Kelliher himself did not appear, but he
>hired a high-powered legal team,  which also helped at times
>to dig out the Social Crediters from some of the traps they walked
>into. The main one was, of course, that they claimed the existence of a
>sizeable "gap" and were confounded by official figures showing exact
>equilibrium. Only some time later did they discover that GNP (as then
>called) was based on returns of income, on the theory that equation
>existed!When my daughter Melissa, in her final school year, went
>for the final interview with H.J.K. and one or more of his advisers,
>following presentation of her essay, she went in, as any young girl would,
>with some degree of trepidation.  My wife, (her stepmother) who
>stayed out in the reception room, shortly heard peals of laughter coming
>from the interview room. Obviously, the man had a human side.I can
>not give you references to any of his writings, which I think were mainly
>or only per editorials in his paper.  The ultimate resource for
>material of this sort in NZ is our Parliamentary Library, probably per a
>public library for us.Regards.    color=#339933 size=4>John R.<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT:
>5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT:
>0px"><HR
>color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>From: kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Kenneth
>Palmerton) Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com To:
>socialcredit@elistas.com CC:
>kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
>Putting it all together Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:01 +0000
>(GMT) >In-Reply-To:
><BAY21-F4FF116B6FFAAC0415B06EBD2F0@phx.gbl> >Hi
>John. > >Would you care to tell us a bit more about Kelliher
>please ? I believe I >have some of his writings somewhere
>here. > >The name is known to me, but it would be useful to be
>able to put him into >context from someone who knows
>:-) > >I think you are right about Soddy and A+B. But then he
>was not alone in >nearly getting there, but not quite. In fact I
>believe that Keynes himself >was in that category. He accepted a
>"gap", though only admitted to it >being in the nature of a
>depreciation figure. > >As he was a consummate snob there was
>no way he, a hide bound academic >intellectual, would admit to being
>upstaged by a heretic, and a non >academic heretic at that
>:-((( > >I believe Keynes provided the thunder. But it was
>Douglas that gave
>the >lightening. > >Ken. > >--------
>Original Message
>-------- > >X-Envelope-From: >socialcredit-return-3301-ke
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><004801c61012$818a0640$b86437d2@computer> >From: "John G
>Rawson" <johngrawson@hotmail.com> >To:
>socialcredit@elistas.com >Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 06:02:35
>+0000 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/html;
>format=flowed >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jan 2006 06:02:36.0241
>(UTC) >FILETIME=[75E16C10:01C610F4] >Subject: Re:
>[socialcredit] Putting it all together >X-Envelope-To:
>kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk >X-UIDL:
>_lo.Pm5uDB.mta03.mx > ><html><div
>style='background-color:'>Bill, it might take a
>little >finding, but I have a copy of his "Wealth, Virtual Wealth
>and Debt". >To me, basically he agreed with
>Douglas but did not accept the A+B >model.&nbsp; However, he did
>attribute a small "gap" to savings. My >assessment is that, while
>using different forms of expression, he >underestimated it and
>Douglas overestimaterd it. >Out of interest, when
>Kelliher was running his crusade for monetary >reform via his paper
>the "Mirror", obviously he was of the Soddy >school.&nbsp; Using
>this knowledge, I coached two girls at different times >to win
>Kelliher essay prizes on banking etc., which were valuable to
>their >university studies.&nbsp; I kept them away from SC, -
>until >afterwards.&nbsp; One was my daughter Melissa, the other
>a Jewish student. >The latter became an active member of our Youth
>Section in Whangarei. >With our sort of
>knowledge, it was there for the taking every four >years or so, with
>people trained by ordinary economics teachers missing >out on what
>Kelliher wanted.&nbsp; But very few kids could be
>bothered. >Regards.&nbsp;&nbsp; color=#339933 size=4>John
>R. ><BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px;
>MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; >BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT:
>0px"><FONT >style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY:
>tahoma,sans-serif"> ><HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1> >From:
>"W. McGunnigle"
>&lt;wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz&gt; Reply-To: >&l
>t;I>socialcredit@elistas.com To: >&amp
>;lt;socialcredit@elistas.com&gt; Subject:
>Re: [socialcredit] >Putting it all
>together Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006
>16:05:08 >+1300 <META
>content="Microsoft SafeHTML"
>name=Generator> ><STYLE> ></STYLE> > &g
>t;<DIV>Hi
>Martin</DIV> ><DIV>face=Arial >size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; >&nbsp;&amp
>;nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Where can I obtain copies of the work
>of >Professor Soddy? The paper you created in 1988 was of great
>interest to >me, and followed much of the thinking pattern that
>colours my thoughts on >the monetary reform matters.
></DIV> ><DIV>size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I
>certainly >agree that the monetary concepts that govern so called
>"modern economics" >definitely do not cope
>with&nbsp;the
>ever >increasing debt problem, and its stiffling effect on human
>development. >Effectively we have a monetary system developed in the
>15th century geared >to the selfish needs of Italian single city
>states trying to cope with a >global economy that requires global
>equity of opportunity to&nbsp;access >finance. The situation is
>unstable, hence we have want and starvation in a >world of
>plenty.</DIV> ><DIV>size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Bill Mc
>Gunnigle</DIV> ><BLOCKQUOTE
>style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; >MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> ><DIV
>style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
></DIV> ><DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial;
>font-color: >black">From: <A
>title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com >href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun
>.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV> ><DIV
>style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A
>title=socialcredit@elistas.com >href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com
>">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV> ><DIV
>style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Monday, January 02,
>2006 1:44 >PM</DIV> ><DIV style="FONT: 10pt
>arial">Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting >it
>all
>together</DIV> ><DIV> </DIV> ><DI
>V>Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for
>his >discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another way of
>looking at >A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas holus bolus.
></DIV> ><DIV>size=2>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>size=2>There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and >Douglas's
>price discount is&nbsp; the neatest way of balancing
>production >with demand, without demanding unnecessary work from
>anyone, that I know >of&nbsp; - a definitely better
>alternative.</DIV> ><DIV>size=2>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>Martin
>Hattersley 1970-10123-99 St., EDMONTON
>AB >CANADA Phone
>(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247 e-mail:
><A >href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@inter
>baun.com</A></DI >V> ><BLOCKQUOTE
>style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; >MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> ><DIV
>style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
></DIV> ><DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial;
>font-color: >black">From: <A
>title=thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca >href="mailto:thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca">Joe
>Thomson</A> </DIV> ><DIV style="FONT: 10pt
>arial">To: <A
>title=socialcredit@elistas.com >href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com
>">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV> ><DIV
>style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Saturday, December
>31, 2005 >10:31 PM</DIV> ><DIV style="FONT: 10pt
>arial">Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting >it
>all
>together</DIV> ><DIV> </DIV> ><DI
>V>That's a&nbsp;very interesting
>paper, >Martin,&nbsp;as are all your pieces.
>&nbsp;Thanks.&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't >think it hurts to
>explore some of the ideas of others in comparison to >those
>of&nbsp;Douglas.&nbsp;
>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>face=Arial>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV><FON
>T face=Arial>In Soddy I&nbsp;see some similarities with
>Douglas, >but different terminology and concepts.&nbsp; And
>objective. Soddy seems >to be more in favour of a 'stable price
>level' than a constantly
>'falling' >one.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;As Douglas
>envisioned through an application >&nbsp;of
>credit&nbsp;enabling all the benefits of continually
>advancing >technology to be accessed&nbsp;'financially' by
>consumers in the provision >of desired product, As well
>as&nbsp;provision
>for&nbsp;increased >leisure&nbsp;.&nbsp;
></DIV> ><DIV>face=Arial>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV><FON
>T face=Arial>Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating
>credit >for spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free
>'consumer' >credits to individuals.&nbsp; Is this a large part
>of the >reason&nbsp;why&nbsp;many find
>'government'&nbsp; infrastructure spending >in&nbsp;a slump
>so attractive?&nbsp; To try to keep up the
>price >level?&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>face=Arial>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV><FON
>T face=Arial>I guess it's difficult for many to
>initially >&nbsp;envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold for
>less than financial >cost on an ongoing basis without businesses
>being >ruined,&nbsp;&nbsp;Simply through&nbsp;the
>employment&nbsp;of a >&nbsp;different technique of
>credit.&nbsp;&nbsp;But&nbsp;I think >&nbsp;true
>'consumer' demand made ''effective demand''
>would&nbsp;then >&nbsp;create renewed economic activity far
>more effectively than >'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever
>will.&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>face=Arial>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV><FON
>T face=Arial>&nbsp;I've nothing against 'needed'
>infrastructure >being built, but not as 'make work' projects to
>provide an unnecessary >'moral' reason for paying&nbsp;people an
>'income'.&nbsp;&nbsp;As well as >a&nbsp;&nbsp;means
>of keeping&nbsp;them 'under control'.
></DIV> ><DIV>face=Arial>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV><FON
>T face=Arial>Soddy&nbsp; sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to
>me >in that regard~ he seems &nbsp;concerned&nbsp;to keep
>everyone >'working'.&nbsp;&nbsp;The goal of a
>&nbsp;triumph of the individual's >'will-to-freedom'&nbsp;
>over the 'will-to-power' externally imposed >economically on
>him,&nbsp;something&nbsp;&nbsp;so prevalent in
>Douglas, >&nbsp;seems to be absent with
>Soddy.&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV><F
>ONT
>face=Arial>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV><FON
>T face=Arial>&nbsp;I get the impression from what you've
>written >and quoted he thinks&nbsp; the 'government'
>knows >best.&nbsp;&nbsp;Personally, &nbsp;I think once
>we get Douglas completely >figured out, &nbsp;Soddy will best
>remain remembered for
>discovering >isotopes.</DIV><DIV>face=Arial>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV><FON
>T
>face=Arial>Joe</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;<
>/DIV> ><DIV>----- Original Message -----
></DIV> ><BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px;
>PADDING-LEFT: 5px; >MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px
>solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> ><DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4;
>FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: >black">From:
><A
>title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com >href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun
>.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV> ><DIV
>style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A
>title=socialcredit@elistas.com >href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com
>">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV> ><DIV
>style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Thursday, December
>29, 2005 >7:02 PM</DIV> ><DIV style="FONT: 10pt
>arial">Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting >it
>all together</DIV> ><DIV> </DIV>I'm
>attaching a paper I did a while back on the late >Professor Soddy
>for the Eastern Economics Association. I think
>Soddy's >description of the "J curve" phenomenon
>essentially describes the >problem we have to
>tackle. Martin
>Hattersley 1970-10123-99 >St., EDMONTON AB
>CANADA Phone >(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247 e-mail
>:
><A >href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@inter
>baun.com</A> >----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe
>Thomson" >&lt;thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca&gt; To: >&am
>p;lt;socialcredit@elistas.com&gt; Sent: Thursday, December
>29, 2005 9:35 >AM Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
>all together &gt;I >agree with a
>great deal of what Martin has written identifying
>the &gt; >problems, but I do not fully concur with some
>of the solutions.&nbsp; This >may &gt; well be due
>to a lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm >reading into
> &gt; what &gt; Martin's proposing something
>that isn't >intended by him.&nbsp; But there are
> &gt; some &gt; concerns I have >with some
>of what's proposed nevertheless.&nbsp; I'll come
>back &gt; to >them later, but for the moment I'd like
>to comment on just >this. &gt; &gt;
>(Martin wrote:-)&nbsp; &gt; 5. What this initial >expression
>of the theorem omitted &gt; was the fact
>that &gt;&gt; >certain industries distribute wages
>to their workers, while not >putting &gt;&gt; goods
>on the market for immediate sale to consumers. >These are
>the &gt; factories &gt;&gt; that make the
>tools that >workers will later use to turn out
>actual &gt; products. &gt;&gt; >While
>this new capital formation is taking place, its
>distribution >of &gt; funds &gt;&gt;
>to consumers in wages and dividends, >particularly when financed by
>newly &gt;&gt; created bank credit, >serves as a
>form of National Dividend that makes it &gt;&gt;
>possible >for the consuming public to buy all that is on the market
>for &gt; >sale, &gt;&gt; without
>producers being forced to sell
>below >cost. &gt; &gt; (Joe
>replies:-)&nbsp; There is a quote in one of the >early Douglas
>books that &gt; remarks&nbsp; " ....just as
>the >construction of a new railway bridge raises
>the &gt; price of bacon in >a village shop."&nbsp;
>While there is no doubt that 'newly &gt; created >bank
>credit' to finance new works serves as you say, however it
>is &gt; >also, I think, true what Douglas
>says. &gt; &gt; He notes that the >upper
>limit of price is governed roughly by the &gt;
>'quantity &gt; >theory of money'. The lower by
>financial 'cost'.&nbsp; If there's
>'more >money &gt; about' the merchant is going to try
>and get 'more' of >it.&nbsp;&nbsp; He has to,
>if &gt; he's to stay in business.&nbsp; >Simply
>because the fact there IS 'more money &gt; about' has
>diluted >the purchasing power of ALL money
>about. &gt; &gt; He is selling in >the
>hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank lends at &gt;
>interest >in hopes of the same.&nbsp; But money is variable in
>what it will &gt; >'buy', &gt;
>and&nbsp; he has to continually replace and, if selling >more,
>increase, his &gt; stock &gt; in
>trade.&nbsp; (Just as a bank >has to increase its 'stock', its
>'deposits' or &gt; whatever else we've >been foolish
>enough to allow it to use as its &gt;
>reserves, &gt; >if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a
>'cost' to doing this ~ banks >'pay' &gt; interest as
>well as receive it. And 'more' interest when >they want
>more &gt; deposits.) &gt; &gt; If
>the stock the >merchant buys has risen in price, what he might have
> &gt; >taken &gt; for himself in profit is
>diminished.&nbsp; It goes back to >fund the new stock,
> &gt; or &gt; he has to take out a
>larger >overdraft to do so.&nbsp; His sales may be
>rising, &gt; and so in terms >of dollars may be his
>profit.&nbsp; But the RATE of profit in &gt; >ratio
>to that increase in&nbsp; sales taken over&nbsp; time is
>in >continuing &gt; decline. &gt;
>'Interest' and 'profit', considered >in the business sense, are
>exactly the &gt; same.&nbsp; One of the >components
>of 'interest', as we've seen, is allowance &gt;
>for &gt; >'inflation'.&nbsp; One of the components
>of 'profit' would likely then >have to &gt;
>be &gt; the same.&nbsp; It is why I believe
>Douglas >noted that "large works on &gt;
>completion &gt; are paid for by an >expansion of
>credit."&nbsp; The words "on completion" imply &gt;
>there >must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that which took
>place > &gt; to &gt; initiate the
>construction of those 'large >works'.&nbsp; The 'inflation'
>is &gt; continuous, and the community >pays for its
>progress twice.&nbsp; Unless there &gt;
>is &gt; an >implimentation of the SC prescription,
>whereupon we can finally begin > &gt;
>to &gt; enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at
>the >proper decline in overall &gt; retail prices that
>capital appreciation >should have&nbsp; brought
>about. &gt; &gt; >-------------------------
>-------------------------------------------- &g >t;
>Some introductory >materials to the discussion topic of this list
>are
>at &gt; >http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium&lt
>;BR>&gt; You're subscribed to >this list with the email
>hattersleyjm@interbaun.com &gt; For more >information,
>visit >http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit &gt;<
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>lt;BR>--------------------------------------------------------------- >>------ Some >introductory materials to the discussion
>topic of this list
>are >at http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<BR&g
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>267.14.9/216 -
>Release >Date: >29/12/2005 -------
>---------------------------------------------- >----------------R>Som >e introductory materials to the discussion topic of this
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>> > > ><HR> > >&lt
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>> > > ><HR> > >&lt
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>by AVG Free >Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database:
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>Release >Date: >02/01/2006 -------
>---------------------------------------------- >----------------R>Som >e introductory materials to the discussion topic of this
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>are >at http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<BR&g
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