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Howdy Bill,
I agree with your overview which was largely
history. The one sentence about this past election - that you were still
rebuilding the power-base and reminding NZ there was still a m/reform party -
was a very expensive exercise that probably undermined both. There is
a presumption that the electorate knows what monetary reform is.
From the scattered fragments I received I
percieved that the party has a financial blowout, resulting in substantial
dissension which is counterproductive for any powerbase developent and showed
the electorate that the party cant attract any interest in todays
world.
In short they would have been better off to just
keep on building membership, gone in twos and threes to National and Labour
meetings and challenged them on debt issues in public and the like to put these
issue in the public mind.
The gauntlet small parties have to run as you
pointed out are old parts of the political landscape. So its foot soldiers
that are needed, for letterbox drops, door knocking and letters to the
editor. In my electorate I saw two billboards and nothing
else. It's not a commercial art competition.
I would say that the number of people who
appreciate the need of monetary reform, mostly past supporters number a lot more
than those who voted for them.
If this was the basis of the election campaign then
it would have been cheaper to call on past members in a variety of
electorates and interview them and make an accessment of potential support at no
cost. After all the wasted money they still dont know what these people
think today.
The arguing that goes on within the party shows it
is a mixed bag of people who have a simple and clear idea of what they are
against but fragented regards a clear and comprehensive idea of
what they are FOR and how to go about it.
The decisions regarding the election appear to be
based more on immature and psychological internal needs not cold reality of
the world outside. One of the biggest hurdles is the desire
in the majority of the rank and file membership- we want a messiah ( like
Betheem became) because then it all happens so easily and no one has to get out
and footslog or fundraise etc as much, just pay their sub, attend a few
meetings, shake the Mans hand and sit back and wait for the votes to roll
in.
There have been a lot of frustrated and very
talented people go through the SC party over the decades and they rarely go
back.
There were huge structural and functional faults in
the party when I was involved, the late 80s to mid 90s, which can be the
measure of their results.
There was also another party that just started out
in the last election, the leader of which has an understanding of SC but the
party was focused more towards constitutional issues, appreciating that one
needs to build on good foundations not just on anything, consistent with
Douglas. It was called Direct Democracy. I havent seen their
election results and I expect they would not have done any better. The
average NZer who watches the 6 pm news on tellie and looks through the headlines
of a newspaper several times a week and reads some letters to the editor
probably feels they know it all so any party that gets out on the fringe and
wants to prove chalk isnt cheese is going to find it hard going.
However there seems to be an absense of 'lessons
learned in the past' in the party and so they seem to be moving around in
a circle not moving on.
Social Crediters should be the most
dynamic organised people in the world. The keys, I believe, are
right under our noses but we are only interested in money in the main
and so we remain divided servants. Rather ironic really.
Thanks for your very interesting post re the
international banks.
Peter H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:37
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together
Hi Martin
The poor showing of the Democrats for Social Credit in the last NZ elections
were the result of a combination of factors. Some were external to the party
and some internal.
We were part of a
coalition of minor parties called the Alliance from 1993 prior to the 2002
election and had two MP's who, unfortunately, were very ineffective in
propagating SC monetary reform policies. That Alliance split apart in 2002 and
we supported the ousted leader of the Alliance at the 2002 election. In
restrospect I believe we should have gone out on our own then. We decided to
revert to the independant Democrat party in 2003, and then had to rebuild our
membership and reorganise which we had allowed to lapse during our Alliance
days. The 2005 election took place while we are still rebuilding our power
base and reminding the electorate that a monetary reform party still exists on
NZ. These were the internal problems. Externally, we along with every
other minor party in NZ, have had to fight the TV news media for air time and
news paper coverage. The former is effectively controlled by the two major
parties, who have bagged lion's share of public electioneering monies by
virtue of their representation in Parliament. The latter are controlled by
international finance who have a vested interest in trying to restore the old
corrupt two party system responsible for the disasterous indeptedness of our
country.
Alternative policies to those
of the two major parties were deliberately ignored by the news media. We are
back to the situation we faced in the mid 1970's when a big split
nearly destroyed the party, but there are ways we can correct the problems
before the next election. There is a fertile ground for our policies
particularly if we attack the banking system here which is almost totally
foreigned owned. It was one of the conditions for accepting IMF loans together
with cutting of "welfare spending" (This included reducing old age pensions
and unemployment benefits).
Incidently in case
the plug is totally pulled on this forum my personal e-mail is wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz ifyou ever wish to
contact me personally.
Have a good New
Year Martin
Bill
McGunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 12:20
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together
Bill -
Thanks for all the background.
I ordered a copy of Michel Chossudovsky's
"Globalization of Poverty", and his comments on the work of the IMF, WTO and
World Bank make them look more like a criminal conspiracy to take over the
world by putting countries through the "race to the bottom" in the name of
"free enterprise" than any sort of organizations devoted to the public
good.
Makes me sad to see that New Zealand (which
used to get worried if unemployment went over 1%) has now joined the ranks
of the indebted "have nots". It seems as if the Democratic-Social Credit
party bombed badly in the past election, presumably because the electorate
either didn't understand or didn't want monetary reform. Any comments or
explanations of this?
All the best for 2006 -
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:29
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together
Hi Martin
Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those references. John
Rawson says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", so I will
be able to access that volume. John and I have been friends and fellow
workers in the Socred Movement in NZ for over 20 years. I joined the
movement in 1980 after retiring from the Army. I was unable to do so prior
to this because serving Army Officers are forbidden by law to be members
of a political organisation in NZ. John and I began working together in
1984 when I moved to Northland NZ. I appreciate all the comments made by
members of the forum on monetary reform matters. Incidently I have a
brother in Singapore who, although he has no connection to the Socerd
movement, has moved into the monetary reform camp. He compared the way
Singapore and Malaysia handled the "Monetary Crisis" of the late 1980's to
that of countries that begged funding from the IMF and World Bank. Those
who borrowed from the IMF are still in crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia
are flourishing. this contrasts to Indonesia where a country rich in
natural resources cannot provide for its people because of crippling debt
requirements. When he retires he intends to broadcast his findings in an
attempt to educate people to the scam of international
banking.
Bill Mc
Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006
7:27 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together
I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual Wealth
and Debt", that was reprinted by Omni Publications in California quite
some time ago - I'm not sure that they are still in business. I could
perhaps ask Wally Klinck to scan it for me and send you a copy, though
that's a bit of a tall order..
I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and there
are several references to Soddy and his writings there. I think you
might follow that route up and get what you are looking for. Good
Luck!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006
8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
Hi Martin
Where can I obtain copies of the work of Professor Soddy? The paper
you created in 1988 was of great interest to me, and followed much of
the thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on the monetary reform
matters.
I
certainly agree that the monetary concepts that govern so called
"modern economics" definitely do not cope with the ever increasing debt problem, and its stiffling
effect on human development. Effectively we have a monetary system
developed in the 15th century geared to the selfish needs of Italian
single city states trying to cope with a global economy that requires
global equity of opportunity to access finance. The situation is
unstable, hence we have want and starvation in a world of
plenty.
Bill Mc
Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006
1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for
his discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another way of
looking at A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas holus bolus.
There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and
Douglas's price discount is the neatest way of balancing
production with demand, without demanding unnecessary work from
anyone, that I know of - a definitely better
alternative.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 31,
2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
That's a very interesting paper,
Martin, as are all your pieces. Thanks. I
don't think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others in
comparison to those of Douglas.
In Soddy I see some similarities with
Douglas, but different terminology and concepts. And
objective. Soddy seems to be more in favour of a 'stable price
level' than a constantly 'falling' one. As
Douglas envisioned through an application of
credit enabling all the benefits of continually advancing
technology to be accessed 'financially' by consumers in the
provision of desired product, As well as provision
for increased leisure .
Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating
credit for spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free
'consumer' credits to individuals. Is this a large part of
the reason why many find 'government'
infrastructure spending in a slump so attractive? To
try to keep up the price level?
I guess it's difficult for many to initially
envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold for less than
financial cost on an ongoing basis without businesses being
ruined, Simply through the employment of a
different technique of credit. But I think
true 'consumer' demand made ''effective demand''
would then create renewed economic activity far more
effectively than 'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever
will.
I've nothing against 'needed'
infrastructure being built, but not as 'make work' projects to
provide an unnecessary 'moral' reason for paying people an
'income'. As well as a means of
keeping them 'under control'.
Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan'
to me in that regard~ he seems concerned to keep
everyone 'working'. The goal of a triumph of the
individual's 'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power'
externally imposed economically on
him, something so prevalent in Douglas,
seems to be absent with Soddy.
I get the impression from what you've
written and quoted he thinks the 'government' knows
best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas
completely figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered
for discovering isotopes.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December
29, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the
late Professor Soddy for the
Eastern Economics Association.
I think Soddy's description of the "J curve"
phenomenon
essentially describes the problem we have to
tackle.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99
St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
-----
Original Message -----
From: "Joe Thomson"
<thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29,
2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all
together
>I agree with a great deal of what Martin
has written identifying the
> problems, but I do not fully
concur with some of the solutions. This may
> well
be due to a lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm reading
into
> what
> Martin's proposing something that
isn't intended by him. But there are
> some
>
concerns I have with some of what's proposed nevertheless.
I'll come back
> to them later, but for the moment I'd
like to comment on just this.
>
> (Martin
wrote:-) > 5. What this initial expression of the
theorem omitted
> was the fact that
>> certain
industries distribute wages to their workers, while not
putting
>> goods on the market for immediate sale to
consumers. These are the
> factories
>> that make
the tools that workers will later use to turn out actual
>
products.
>> While this new capital formation is taking
place, its distribution of
> funds
>> to
consumers in wages and dividends, particularly when financed by
newly
>> created bank credit, serves as a form of
National Dividend that makes it
>> possible for the
consuming public to buy all that is on the market for
>
sale,
>> without producers being forced to sell below
cost.
>
> (Joe replies:-) There is a quote in
one of the early Douglas books that
> remarks "
....just as the construction of a new railway bridge raises
the
> price of bacon in a village shop." While there
is no doubt that 'newly
> created bank credit' to finance
new works serves as you say, however it is
> also, I
think, true what Douglas says.
>
> He notes that the
upper limit of price is governed roughly by the
>
'quantity
> theory of money'. The lower by financial
'cost'. If there's 'more money
> about' the merchant
is going to try and get 'more' of it. He has to,
if
> he's to stay in business. Simply because the
fact there IS 'more money
> about' has diluted the
purchasing power of ALL money about.
>
> He is
selling in the hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank
lends at
> interest in hopes of the same. But money
is variable in what it will
> 'buy',
> and he
has to continually replace and, if selling more, increase, his
> stock
> in trade. (Just as a bank has to
increase its 'stock', its 'deposits' or
> whatever else
we've been foolish enough to allow it to use as its
>
reserves,
> if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost'
to doing this ~ banks 'pay'
> interest as well as receive
it. And 'more' interest when they want more
>
deposits.)
>
> If the stock the merchant buys has
risen in price, what he might have
> taken
> for
himself in profit is diminished. It goes back to fund the
new stock,
> or
> he has to take out a larger
overdraft to do so. His sales may be rising,
> and
so in terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE of
profit in
> ratio to that increase in sales taken
over time is in continuing
> decline.
>
'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the business sense, are
exactly the
> same. One of the components of
'interest', as we've seen, is allowance
> for
>
'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit' would
likely then have to
> be
> the same. It is
why I believe Douglas noted that "large works on
>
completion
> are paid for by an expansion of
credit." The words "on completion" imply
> there
must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that which took
place
> to
> initiate the construction of those
'large works'. The 'inflation' is
> continuous, and
the community pays for its progress twice. Unless there
> is
> an implimentation of the SC prescription,
whereupon we can finally begin
> to
> enjoy as
consumers the fruits of progress at the proper decline in
overall
> retail prices that capital appreciation should
have brought about.
>
>
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Re: [socialcredit]
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