In-Reply-To: <001d01c613a4$e67c2de0$bad44246@cc.shawcable.net>
Hi Joe.
Would you believe, No :-((((
Yes I know, what an idiot. But it all started from being told about the
"Stoll Empire" the name of his biggest theatre in the centre of London,
Kingsway I believe.
Maybe I could find his first name if I dug around in all these books
here, but being that they are crammed into far too small a space its a bit
like the proverbial needle.
Ken.
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Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 08:10:38 -0800
From: Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
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Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
X-Envelope-To: kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk
X-UIDL: _cED.0mHwDB.mta02.mx
Hi Ken,
Do you happen to recall Stoll's first name?
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> In-Reply-To: <BAY21-F2183F3F8D8E797EE94DC25BD2E0@phx.gbl>
> Thank you John for that.
>
> It is amazing just how much interesting, or even valuable information on
> the progress, or otherwise, of monetary reform is inside peoples heads,
> and not written down.
>
> The biggest problem with people is that they have a nasty habit of dying
> off, taking their knowledge with them unrecorded :-(
>
> An example is of a man called Stoll. He was the owner of a string of
> theatres here in the UK. His name kept cropping up in the digging around
> that I am wont to do, but it was incredibly difficult to find any living
> person who had either heard of him, or has any information to contribute.
>
> Eventually I found that he had written a series of books on monetary
> reform, but again, I have not, so far, laid eyes on them.
>
> Again, I think there many other contributors to our body of knowledge in
> the same situation.
>
> Ken.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
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> From: "John G Rawson" <johngrawson@hotmail.com>
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 06:45:52 +0000
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> FILETIME=[AC313A00:01C611C3]Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all
> togetherX-Envelope-To: kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk
> X-UIDL: _bAF.V3SvDB.mta02.mx
>
> <html><div style='background-color:'><P>Greetings Ken.</P>
> <P>H.J. Kelliher was one of our more prominent industrialists. I am
> embarassed in that I forget his particular product.</P><P>He ran the
> Mirror Publishing Co, and produced the weekly "Mirror", in which he
> campaigned per editorials for monetary reform. Once again, I am
> ignorant of the general form of the paper, but it was good enough to
> succeed.</P><P>Her put forward a "loanable funds scheme" to our 1950's
> Royal Commission, the aim of which was to make the banks "borrow to
lend".> The Commission was about as enthusiastic about it as it was about
the> Social Credit submissions.</P><P>Kelliher himself did not appear, but
he> hired a high-powered legal team, which also helped at times
> to dig out the Social Crediters from some of the traps they walked
> into. The main one was, of course, that they claimed the existence of a
> sizeable "gap" and were confounded by official figures showing exact
> equilibrium. Only some time later did they discover that GNP (as
then> called) was based on returns of income, on the theory that equation
> existed!</P><P>When my daughter Melissa, in her final school year, went
> for the final interview with H.J.K. and one or more of his advisers,
> following presentation of her essay, she went in, as any young girl
would,> with some degree of trepidation. My wife, (her stepmother)
who> stayed out in the reception room, shortly heard peals of laughter
coming> from the interview room. Obviously, the man had a human
side.</P><P>I can> not give you references to any of his writings, which I
think were mainly> or only per editorials in his paper. The ultimate
resource for> material of this sort in NZ is our Parliamentary Library,
probably per a> public library for us.</P><P>Regards.
<FONT> color=#339933 size=4>John R.</FONT></P><BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT:> 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT:> 0px"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY:
tahoma,sans-serif"><HR> color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>From:
<I>kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Kenneth> Palmerton)</I><BR>Reply-To:
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>To:>
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>CC:>
<I>kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk</I><BR>Subject: <I>Re: [socialcredit]>
Putting it all together</I><BR>Date: <I>Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:01 +0000>
(GMT)</I><BR>>In-Reply-To:>
<BAY21-F4FF116B6FFAAC0415B06EBD2F0@phx.gbl><BR>>Hi>
John.<BR>><BR>>Would you care to tell us a bit more about Kelliher>
please ? I believe I<BR>>have some of his writings somewhere>
here.<BR>><BR>>The name is known to me, but it would be useful to
be> able to put him into<BR>>context from someone who knows
> :-)<BR>><BR>>I think you are right about Soddy and A+B. But then he
> was not alone in<BR>>nearly getting there, but not quite. In fact I
> believe that Keynes himself<BR>>was in that category. He accepted a
> "gap", though only admitted to it<BR>>being in the nature of a
> depreciation figure.<BR>><BR>>As he was a consummate snob there was
> no way he, a hide bound academic<BR>>intellectual, would admit to
being> upstaged by a heretic, and a non<BR>>academic heretic at that
> :-(((<BR>><BR>>I believe Keynes provided the thunder. But it was
> Douglas that gave
> the<BR>>lightening.<BR>><BR>>Ken.<BR>><BR>>--------
> Original Message
>
--------<BR>><BR>>X-Envelope-From:<BR>>socialcredit-return-3301-ke
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> <004801c61012$818a0640$b86437d2@computer><BR>>From: "John G
> Rawson" <johngrawson@hotmail.com><BR>>To:
> socialcredit@elistas.com<BR>>Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 06:02:35
> +0000<BR>>Mime-Version: 1.0<BR>>Content-Type: text/html;
> format=flowed<BR>>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jan 2006 06:02:36.0241
> (UTC)<BR>>FILETIME=[75E16C10:01C610F4]<BR>>Subject: Re:
> [socialcredit] Putting it all together<BR>>X-Envelope-To:
> kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk<BR>>X-UIDL:
> _lo.Pm5uDB.mta03.mx<BR>><BR>><html><div
> style='background-color:'><P>Bill, it might take a
> little<BR>>finding, but I have a copy of his "Wealth, Virtual Wealth
> and Debt".</P><BR>><P>To me, basically he agreed with
> Douglas but did not accept the A+B<BR>>model. However, he
did> attribute a small "gap" to savings. My<BR>>assessment is that,
while> using different forms of expression, he<BR>>underestimated it and
> Douglas overestimaterd it.</P><BR>><P>Out of interest,
when> Kelliher was running his crusade for monetary<BR>>reform via his
paper> the "Mirror", obviously he was of the
Soddy<BR>>school. Using> this knowledge, I coached two girls
at different times<BR>>to win> Kelliher essay prizes on banking etc.,
which were valuable to> their<BR>>university studies. I kept
them away from SC, -> until<BR>>afterwards. One was my
daughter Melissa, the other> a Jewish student.<BR>>The latter became an
active member of our Youth> Section in
Whangarei.</P><BR>><P>With our sort of> knowledge, it was
there for the taking every four<BR>>years or so, with> people trained
by ordinary economics teachers missing<BR>>out on what> Kelliher
wanted. But very few kids could be>
bothered.</P><BR>><P>Regards. <FONT>
color=#339933 size=4>John>
R.</FONT></P><BR>><BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px;>
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;<BR>>BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT:>
0px"><FONT<BR>>style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY:>
tahoma,sans-serif"><BR>><HR color=#a0c6e5
SIZE=1><BR>>From:> <I>"W. McGunnigle"
>
<wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz></I><BR>Reply-To:<BR>>&l
>
t;I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>To:<BR>><I>&
> ;lt;socialcredit@elistas.com></I><BR>Subject:
> <I>Re: [socialcredit]<BR>>Putting it all
> together</I><BR>Date: <I>Tue, 3 Jan 2006
> 16:05:08<BR>>+1300</I><BR><BR><META
> content="Microsoft SafeHTML"
>
name=Generator><BR>><STYLE><BR>></STYLE><BR>><BR>&g
> t;<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi
> Martin</FONT></DIV><BR>><DIV><FONT
>
face=Arial<BR>>size=2> &nb
>
sp; <BR>> &
> ;nbsp; Where can I obtain copies of the work
> of<BR>>Professor Soddy? The paper you created in 1988 was of great
> interest to<BR>>me, and followed much of the thinking pattern that
> colours my thoughts on<BR>>the monetary reform matters.
> </FONT></DIV><BR>><DIV><FONT face=Arial
> size=2> I
> certainly<BR>>agree that the monetary concepts that govern so called
> "modern economics"<BR>>definitely do not cope
> with</FONT> <FONT face=Arial size=2>the
> ever<BR>>increasing debt problem, and its stiffling effect on human
> development.<BR>>Effectively we have a monetary system developed in
the> 15th century geared<BR>>to the selfish needs of Italian single city
> states trying to cope with a<BR>>global economy that requires global
> equity of opportunity to access<BR>>finance. The situation is
> unstable, hence we have want and starvation in a<BR>>world of
> plenty.</FONT></DIV><BR>><DIV><FONT face=Arial
> size=2> Bill Mc
> Gunnigle</FONT></DIV><BR>><BLOCKQUOTE
> style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px;<BR>>MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><BR>><DIV
> style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
> </DIV><BR>><DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial;
> font-color:<BR>>black"><B>From:</B> <A
>
title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com<BR>>href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun
> .com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV><BR>><DIV
> style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
>
title=socialcredit@elistas.com<BR>>href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com
> ">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV><BR>><DIV
> style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 02,
> 2006 1:44<BR>>PM</DIV><BR>><DIV style="FONT: 10pt
> arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit]
Putting<BR>>it> all
>
together</DIV><BR>><DIV><BR></DIV><BR>><DI
> V><FONT size=2>Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for
> his<BR>>discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another way of
> looking at<BR>>A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas holus bolus.
> </FONT></DIV><BR>><DIV><FONT
> size=2></FONT> </DIV><BR>><DIV><FONT
> size=2>There are more ways than one to skin a cat,
and<BR>>Douglas's> price discount is the neatest way of
balancing> production<BR>>with demand, without demanding unnecessary
work from> anyone, that I know<BR>>of - a definitely better
> alternative.</FONT></DIV><BR>><DIV><FONT
> size=2></FONT> </DIV><BR>><DIV>Martin
> Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON
> AB<BR>>CANADA<BR>Phone
> (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail:
>
<A<BR>>href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@inter
> baun.com</A></DI<BR>>V><BR>><BLOCKQUOTE
> style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px;<BR>>MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><BR>><DIV
> style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
> </DIV><BR>><DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial;
> font-color:<BR>>black"><B>From:</B> <A
> title=thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca<BR>>href="mailto:thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca">Joe
> Thomson</A> </DIV><BR>><DIV style="FONT: 10pt
> arial"><B>To:</B> <A
>
title=socialcredit@elistas.com<BR>>href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com
> ">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV><BR>><DIV
> style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December
> 31, 2005<BR>>10:31 PM</DIV><BR>><DIV style="FONT: 10pt
> arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit]
Putting<BR>>it> all
>
together</DIV><BR>><DIV><BR></DIV><BR>><DI
> V><FONT face=Arial>That's a very interesting
> paper,<BR>>Martin, as are all your pieces.
> Thanks. I don't<BR>>think it hurts to
> explore some of the ideas of others in comparison to<BR>>those
> of Douglas.
> </FONT></DIV><BR>><DIV><FONT
>
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV><BR>><DIV><FON
> T face=Arial>In Soddy I see some similarities with
> Douglas,<BR>>but different terminology and concepts. And
> objective. Soddy seems<BR>>to be more in favour of a 'stable price
> level' than a constantly
> 'falling'<BR>>one. As Douglas
> envisioned through an application<BR>> of
> credit enabling all the benefits of continually
> advancing<BR>>technology to be accessed 'financially' by
> consumers in the provision<BR>>of desired product, As well
> as provision
> for increased<BR>>leisure .
> </FONT></DIV><BR>><DIV><FONT
>
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV><BR>><DIV><FON
> T face=Arial>Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating
> credit<BR>>for spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free
> 'consumer'<BR>>credits to individuals. Is this a large part
> of the<BR>>reason why many find
> 'government' infrastructure spending<BR>>in a slump
> so attractive? To try to keep up the
> price<BR>>level?
</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT>
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV><BR>><DIV><FON
> T face=Arial>I guess it's difficult for many to
> initially<BR>> envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold
for> less than financial<BR>>cost on an ongoing basis without businesses
> being<BR>>ruined, Simply through the
> employment of a<BR>> different technique of
> credit. But I think<BR>> true
> 'consumer' demand made ''effective demand''
> would then<BR>> create renewed economic activity far
> more effectively than<BR>>'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever
> will. </FONT></DIV><BR>><DIV><FONT
>
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV><BR>><DIV><FON
> T face=Arial> I've nothing against 'needed'
> infrastructure<BR>>being built, but not as 'make work' projects to
> provide an unnecessary<BR>>'moral' reason for paying people
an> 'income'. As well
as<BR>>a means> of keeping them 'under
control'.> </FONT></DIV><BR>><DIV><FONT
>
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV><BR>><DIV><FON
> T face=Arial>Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to
> me<BR>>in that regard~ he seems concerned to keep
> everyone<BR>>'working'. The goal of a
> triumph of the individual's<BR>>'will-to-freedom'
> over the 'will-to-power' externally imposed<BR>>economically on
> him, something so prevalent in
> Douglas,<BR>> seems to be absent with
>
Soddy. </FONT></DIV><BR>><DIV><F
> ONT
>
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV><BR>><DIV><FON
> T face=Arial> I get the impression from what you've
> written<BR>>and quoted he thinks the 'government'
> knows<BR>>best. Personally, I think once
> we get Douglas completely<BR>>figured out, Soddy will best
> remain remembered for
> discovering<BR>>isotopes.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT
>
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV><BR>><DIV><FON
> T
>
face=Arial>Joe</FONT></DIV><BR>><DIV> <
> /DIV><BR>><DIV>----- Original Message -----
> </DIV><BR>><BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px;
> PADDING-LEFT: 5px;<BR>>MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px
> solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><BR>><DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4;
> FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:<BR>>black"><B>From:</B>
> <A
>
title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com<BR>>href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun
> .com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV><BR>><DIV
> style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
>
title=socialcredit@elistas.com<BR>>href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com
> ">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV><BR>><DIV
> style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December
> 29, 2005<BR>>7:02 PM</DIV><BR>><DIV style="FONT: 10pt
> arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit]
Putting<BR>>it> all
together</DIV><BR>><DIV><BR></DIV>I'm>
attaching a paper I did a while back on the late<BR>>Professor Soddy>
for the <BR>Eastern Economics Association. I think>
Soddy's<BR>>description of the "J curve" <BR>phenomenon>
essentially describes the<BR>>problem we have to>
tackle.<BR><BR>Martin>
Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99<BR>>St.,<BR>EDMONTON AB>
CANADA<BR>Phone<BR>>(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail
> :
>
<A<BR>>href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@inter
> baun.com</A><BR><BR>>----- Original Message -----
> <BR>From: "Joe
>
Thomson"<BR>><thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca><BR>To:<BR>>&am
> p;lt;socialcredit@elistas.com><BR>Sent: Thursday, December
> 29, 2005 9:35<BR>>AM<BR>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
> all together<BR><BR><BR>>I<BR>>agree with a
> great deal of what Martin has written identifying
> the<BR>><BR>>problems, but I do not fully concur with
some> of the solutions. This<BR>>may<BR>> well
be due> to a lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm<BR>>reading into
> <BR>> what<BR>> Martin's proposing something
> that isn't<BR>>intended by him. But there are
> <BR>> some<BR>> concerns I have<BR>>with
some> of what's proposed nevertheless. I'll come
> back<BR>> to<BR>>them later, but for the moment I'd like
> to comment on just<BR>>this.<BR>><BR>>
> (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this
initial<BR>>expression> of the theorem omitted<BR>> was
the fact> that<BR>>><BR>>certain industries
distribute wages> to their workers, while
not<BR>>putting<BR>>> goods> on the market for
immediate sale to consumers.<BR>>These are> the<BR>>
factories<BR>>> that make the> tools
that<BR>>workers will later use to turn out> actual<BR>>
products.<BR>>><BR>>While> this new capital
formation is taking place, its> distribution<BR>>of<BR>>
funds<BR>>>> to consumers in wages and
dividends,<BR>>particularly when financed by>
newly<BR>>> created bank credit,<BR>>serves as a>
form of National Dividend that makes it<BR>>>>
possible<BR>>for the consuming public to buy all that is on the market>
for<BR>><BR>>sale,<BR>>> without>
producers being forced to sell>
below<BR>>cost.<BR>><BR>> (Joe>
replies:-) There is a quote in one of the<BR>>early Douglas>
books that<BR>> remarks " ....just as>
the<BR>>construction of a new railway bridge raises>
the<BR>> price of bacon in<BR>>a village shop." >
While there is no doubt that 'newly<BR>> created<BR>>bank>
credit' to finance new works serves as you say, however it>
is<BR>><BR>>also, I think, true what Douglas>
says.<BR>><BR>> He notes that the<BR>>upper>
limit of price is governed roughly by the <BR>>>
'quantity<BR>><BR>>theory of money'. The lower by>
financial 'cost'. If there's>
'more<BR>>money<BR>> about' the merchant is going to try>
and get 'more' of<BR>>it. He has to,>
if<BR>> he's to stay in business. <BR>>Simply>
because the fact there IS 'more money<BR>> about' has>
diluted<BR>>the purchasing power of ALL money>
about.<BR>><BR>> He is selling in<BR>>the>
hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank lends at<BR>>>
interest<BR>>in hopes of the same. But money is variable in>
what it will <BR>><BR>>'buy',<BR>>>
and he has to continually replace and, if selling<BR>>more,>
increase, his <BR>> stock<BR>> in>
trade. (Just as a bank<BR>>has to increase its 'stock', its>
'deposits' or<BR>> whatever else we've<BR>>been foolish>
enough to allow it to use as its <BR>>>
reserves,<BR>><BR>>if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a>
'cost' to doing this ~ banks<BR>>'pay'<BR>> interest as>
well as receive it. And 'more' interest when<BR>>they want>
more<BR>> deposits.)<BR>><BR>> If>
the stock the<BR>>merchant buys has risen in price, what he might have>
<BR>><BR>>taken<BR>> for himself in profit
is> diminished. It goes back to<BR>>fund the new stock,
> <BR>> or<BR>> he has to take out a
> larger<BR>>overdraft to do so. His sales may be
> rising,<BR>> and so in terms<BR>>of dollars may be his
> profit. But the RATE of profit
in<BR>><BR>>ratio> to that increase in sales
taken over time is> in<BR>>continuing <BR>>
decline.<BR>>> 'Interest' and 'profit', considered<BR>>in
the business sense, are> exactly the<BR>> same. One
of the<BR>>components> of 'interest', as we've seen, is allowance
<BR>>> for<BR>><BR>>'inflation'.
One of the components> of 'profit' would likely then<BR>>have to
<BR>>> be<BR>> the same. It is why I
believe> Douglas<BR>>noted that "large works on <BR>>
> completion<BR>> are paid for by an<BR>>expansion of
> credit." The words "on completion" imply<BR>>
> there<BR>>must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that which took
> place<BR>><BR>> to<BR>> initiate the
> construction of those 'large<BR>>works'. The 'inflation'
> is<BR>> continuous, and the community<BR>>pays for its
> progress twice. Unless there <BR>>
> is<BR>> an<BR>>implimentation of the SC prescription,
> whereupon we can finally begin<BR>><BR>>
> to<BR>> enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at
> the<BR>>proper decline in overall<BR>> retail prices that
> capital appreciation<BR>>should have brought
>
about.<BR>><BR>><BR>>-------------------------
> --------------------------------------------<BR>&g<BR>>t;
> Some introductory<BR>>materials to the discussion topic of this list
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