| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together | | Date: | Monday, January 9, 2006 04:05:27 (+0000) | | From: | John G Rawson <johngrawson @.......com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 3326 (written by Peter Haines) |
OK, we have had an excellent overview of the factors affecting small parties
in general from Bill and a somewhat antagonistic but nevertheless true-in-parts
comment from Peter. We all have those who want the glory but someone else to do
the work.
Yes, the last election was successfully turned into a clash between those
scared of the Government continuing and those afraid of change. It succeeded even
with some of our own Party Members. But the Greens, by comparison, retained
representation. The reason for the difference, I believe, is that they sell
the need for environmental legislation to a good number of people. We tried to
sell the product, excellent policy (which we have had always), to a public who
couldn't see the need for it. And who couldn't give a stuff about even finding
out what the policy was of a group without a snowball's chance of applying any
of it in the forseeable future. A "presidential" campaign requires possession of
someone with the chance to become the "president" at the end of the campaign. We
need many years of hard work to reach this stage.
Politics, particularly in relation to economics, like insurance in the
community, is an imponderable. Insurance agents who try to sell excellent
policies without pointing out the dangers of not having any, go broke. I believe
Douglas' "people power" approach might succeed if it heeded this principle, but
is handicapped if it concentrates on simply promoting his policies, no matter how
sound. And doomed completely the moment there is dissension on how some point
might be applied.
In addition, New Zealanders, (like others in the world?), tend mostly to vote
negatively. In 2005 this probably was more accentuated than ever, with the
nation divided fairly evenly between those who feared the prospect of a National
government and those badly wanting a change from Labour. The media, of course,
whipped it to a frenzy.
The answer, I believe applies to all forms of the monetary reform movements,
whether through political action or not. We need to get across to people that
fact that the present financial system is evil, dishonest and outdated. That it
hurts both rich (except for the few directly benefitting from it) and the poor.
We need to explain it in common standard language, avoiding anything that looks
like lunatic fringe lingo. We need to get it across so well that many people
become determined to vote against this monstrosity (vote for us); that they are
ashamed to support those old political parties. And with tight control of most
of the media, we have only two avenues, the "net" and personal approach to
people. Yes, hard work. So is selling insurance, believe it or not.
What is more, the propaganda aligned against us through the standard media is
so strong that, even if a miracle placed a monetary reform government into
power, the public could be turned against it in months, possibly weeks, if there
was not a reasonable number of citizens who understood what they were doing and
why.
One of our greatest problems, I believe, is that so many of our proposals are
so sensible and the present system so stupid, that many people simply will not
believe that the policies need putting into place. There are many good,
intelligent, honest and well-meaning people in all political parties, and in a
small country at least, many know them personally. They just can't believe they
would ever condone anything so bad as we portray needing reform. They fail to
take note of the fact that most of these politicians and officxials either are
well-educated experts in their own fields who instinctively leave economic
concerns to the "experts" in that one, or are simply too busy (or lazy) to check
out the problems.
I am not saying that we must not have crystal clear ideas of exactly what we
intend to do and how, for the sake of policy formulation and for those very few
who approach us from an intellectual level and therefore may become valuable
workers for us. Possibly nobody else in our party has done more "stirring" along
these lines than I have. But for the general public we need a simple approach
that gets them at least worried about what the present system is costing them now
and where it is leading their nation.
If anyone replying to this can name one really successful politician, anywhere
in the world or at any time, who has not given his public an "enemy" to fear or
hate, it will be new to me. Our problem will be to keep it to principles and
organisations, without descending to the personalities employed by many of our
present leaders.
Regards. John R.
From: "Peter Haines" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
Reply-To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Subject: Re:
[socialcredit] Putting it all together
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 12:08:46 +1300
Howdy Bill,
I agree with your overview which was largely history. The one sentence about
this past election - that you were still rebuilding the power-base and reminding
NZ there was still a m/reform party - was a very expensive exercise that probably
undermined both. There is a presumption that the electorate knows what monetary
reform is.
From the scattered fragments I received I percieved that the party has a
financial blowout, resulting in substantial dissension which is counterproductive
for any powerbase developent and showed the electorate that the party cant
attract any interest in todays world.
In short they would have been better off to just keep on building membership,
gone in twos and threes to National and Labour meetings and challenged them on
debt issues in public and the like to put these issue in the public mind.
The gauntlet small parties have to run as you pointed out are old parts of the
political landscape. So its foot soldiers that are needed, for letterbox drops,
door knocking and letters to the editor. In my electorate I saw two billboards
and nothing else. It's not a commercial art competition.
I would say that the number of people who appreciate the need of monetary
reform, mostly past supporters number a lot more than those who voted for them.
If this was the basis of the election campaign then it would have been cheaper
to call on past members in a variety of electorates and interview them and make
an accessment of potential support at no cost. After all the wasted money they
still dont know what these people think today.
The arguing that goes on within the party shows it is a mixed bag of people
who have a simple and clear idea of what they are against but fragented regards
a clear and comprehensive idea of what they are FOR and how to go about it.
The decisions regarding the election appear to be based more on immature and
psychological internal needs not cold reality of the world outside. One of the
biggest hurdles is the desire in the majority of the rank and file membership- we
want a messiah ( like Betheem became) because then it all happens so easily and
no one has to get out and footslog or fundraise etc as much, just pay their sub,
attend a few meetings, shake the Mans hand and sit back and wait for the votes to
roll in.
There have been a lot of frustrated and very talented people go through the SC
party over the decades and they rarely go back.
There were huge structural and functional faults in the party when I was
involved, the late 80s to mid 90s, which can be the measure of their results.
There was also another party that just started out in the last election, the
leader of which has an understanding of SC but the party was focused more towards
constitutional issues, appreciating that one needs to build on good foundations
not just on anything, consistent with Douglas. It was called Direct
Democracy. I havent seen their election results and I expect they would not have
done any better. The average NZer who watches the 6 pm news on tellie and looks
through the headlines of a newspaper several times a week and reads some letters
to the editor probably feels they know it all so any party that gets out on the
fringe and wants to prove chalk isnt cheese is going to find it hard going.
However there seems to be an absense of 'lessons learned in the past' in the
party and so they seem to be moving around in a circle not moving on.
Social Crediters should be the most dynamic organised people in the world.
The keys, I believe, are right under our noses but we are only interested in
money in the main and so we remain divided servants. Rather ironic really.
Thanks for your very interesting post re the international banks.
Peter H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Hi Martin
The poor showing of the Democrats for Social Credit in the last
NZ elections were the result of a combination of factors. Some were external to
the party and some internal.
We were part of a coalition of minor parties called the Alliance from
1993 prior to the 2002 election and had two MP's who, unfortunately, were very
ineffective in propagating SC monetary reform policies. That Alliance split apart
in 2002 and we supported the ousted leader of the Alliance at the 2002 election.
In restrospect I believe we should have gone out on our own then. We decided to
revert to the independant Democrat party in 2003, and then had to rebuild our
membership and reorganise which we had allowed to lapse during our Alliance days.
The 2005 election took place while we are still rebuilding our power base and
reminding the electorate that a monetary reform party still exists on NZ. These
were the internal problems. Externally, we along with every other minor party in
NZ, have had to fight the TV news media for
air time and news paper coverage. The former is effectively controlled by the
two major parties, who have bagged lion's share of public electioneering monies
by virtue of their representation in Parliament. The latter are controlled by
international finance who have a vested interest in trying to restore the old
corrupt two party system responsible for the disasterous indeptedness of our
country.
Alternative policies to those of the two major parties were deliberately
ignored by the news media. We are back to the situation we faced in the mid
1970's when a big split nearly destroyed the party, but there are ways we can
correct the problems before the next election. There is a fertile ground for our
policies particularly if we attack the banking system here which is almost
totally foreigned owned. It was one of the conditions for accepting IMF loans
together with cutting of "welfare spending" (This included reducing old age
pensions and unemployment benefits).
Incidently in case the plug is totally pulled on this forum my personal
e-mail is wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz ifyou ever wish to contact me personally.
Have a good New Year Martin
Bill McGunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Bill -
Thanks for all the background.
I ordered a copy of Michel Chossudovsky's "Globalization of Poverty", and his
comments on the work of the IMF, WTO and World Bank make them look more like a
criminal conspiracy to take over the world by putting countries through the "race
to the bottom" in the name of "free enterprise" than any sort of organizations
devoted to the public good.
Makes me sad to see that New Zealand (which used to get worried if
unemployment went over 1%) has now joined the ranks of the indebted "have nots".
It seems as if the Democratic-Social Credit party bombed badly in the past
election, presumably because the electorate either didn't understand or didn't
want monetary reform. Any comments or explanations of this?
All the best for 2006 -
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Hi Martin
Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those references.
John Rawson says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", so I will be
able to access that volume. John and I have been friends and fellow workers in
the Socred Movement in NZ for over 20 years. I joined the movement in 1980 after
retiring from the Army. I was unable to do so prior to this because serving Army
Officers are forbidden by law to be members of a political organisation in NZ.
John and I began working together in 1984 when I moved to Northland NZ. I
appreciate all the comments made by members of the forum on monetary reform
matters. Incidently I have a brother in Singapore who, although he has no
connection to the Socerd movement, has moved into the monetary reform camp. He
compared the way
Singapore and Malaysia handled the "Monetary Crisis" of the late 1980's to that
of countries that begged funding from the IMF and World Bank. Those who borrowed
from the IMF are still in crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia are flourishing.
this contrasts to Indonesia where a country rich in natural resources cannot
provide for its people because of crippling debt requirements. When he retires he
intends to broadcast his findings in an attempt to educate people to the scam of
international banking.
Bill Mc Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", that was
reprinted by Omni Publications in California quite some time ago - I'm not sure
that they are still in business. I could perhaps ask Wally Klinck to scan it for
me and send you a copy, though that's a bit of a tall order..
I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and there are several references
to Soddy and his writings there. I think you might follow that route up and get
what you are looking for. Good Luck!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Hi Martin
Where can I obtain copies of the work of Professor Soddy? The
paper you created in 1988 was of great interest to me, and followed much of the
thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on the monetary reform matters.
I certainly agree that the monetary concepts that govern so called
"modern economics" definitely do not cope with the ever increasing debt
problem, and its stiffling effect on human development. Effectively we have a
monetary system developed in the 15th century geared to the selfish needs of
Italian single city states trying to cope with a global economy that requires
global equity of opportunity to access finance. The situation is unstable, hence
we have want and starvation in a world of plenty.
Bill Mc Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for his discussion of the "J
curve", which I think is another way of looking at A+B, rather than for adopting
his ideas holus bolus.
There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and Douglas's price discount is
the neatest way of balancing production with demand, without demanding
unnecessary work from anyone, that I know of - a definitely better
alternative.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
That's a very interesting paper, Martin, as are all your pieces. Thanks. I
don't think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others in comparison to
those of Douglas.
In Soddy I see some similarities with Douglas, but different terminology and
concepts. And objective. Soddy seems to be more in favour of a 'stable price
level' than a constantly 'falling' one. As Douglas envisioned through an
application of credit enabling all the benefits of continually advancing
technology to be accessed 'financially' by consumers in the provision of desired
product, As well as provision for increased leisure .
Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating credit for spending on
infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer' credits to individuals. Is
this a large part of the reason why many find 'government' infrastructure
spending in a slump so attractive? To try to keep up the price level?
I guess it's difficult for many to initially envision how 'consumer' goods
could be sold for less than financial cost on an ongoing basis without businesses
being ruined, Simply through the employment of a different technique of
credit. But I think true 'consumer' demand made ''effective demand'' would then
create renewed economic activity far more effectively than 'infrastructure
spending' pump priming ever will.
I've nothing against 'needed' infrastructure being built, but not as 'make
work' projects to provide an unnecessary 'moral' reason for paying people an
'income'. As well as a means of keeping them 'under control'.
Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to me in that regard~ he seems
concerned to keep everyone 'working'. The goal of a triumph of the
individual's 'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power' externally imposed
economically on him, something so prevalent in Douglas, seems to be absent with
Soddy.
I get the impression from what you've written and quoted he thinks the
'government' knows best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas completely
figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered for discovering isotopes.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late Professor Soddy for the
Eastern Economics Association. I think Soddy's description of the "J curve"
phenomenon essentially describes the problem we have to tackle.
Martin
Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
-----
Original Message -----
From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject:
Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>I agree with a great deal of what
Martin has written identifying the
> problems, but I do not fully concur with
some of the solutions. This may
> well be due to a lack of knowledge on my part,
or that I'm
reading into
> what
> Martin's proposing something that isn't intended by him.
But there are
> some
> concerns I have with some of what's proposed
nevertheless. I'll come back
> to them later, but for the moment I'd like to
comment on just this.
>
> (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this initial expression of
the theorem omitted
> was the fact that
>> certain industries distribute wages to
their workers, while not putting
>> goods on the market for immediate sale to
consumers. These are the
> factories
>> that make the tools that workers will
later use to turn out actual
> products.
>> While this new capital formation is
taking place, its distribution of
> funds
>> to consumers in wages and dividends,
particularly when financed by newly
>> created bank
credit, serves as a form of National Dividend that makes it
>> possible for the
consuming public to buy all that is on the market for
> sale,
>> without
producers being forced to sell below cost.
>
> (Joe replies:-) There is a quote
in one of the early Douglas books that
> remarks " ....just as the construction
of a new railway bridge raises the
> price of bacon in a village shop." While
there is no doubt that 'newly
> created bank credit' to finance new works serves
as you say, however it is
> also, I think, true what Douglas says.
>
> He notes
that the upper limit of price is governed roughly by the
> 'quantity
> theory of
money'. The lower by financial 'cost'. If there's 'more money
> about' the
merchant is going to try and get 'more' of it. He has to,
if
> he's to stay in business. Simply because the fact there IS 'more money
>
about' has diluted the purchasing power of ALL money about.
>
> He is selling in
the hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank lends at
> interest in hopes of
the same. But money is variable in what it will
> 'buy',
> and he has to
continually replace and, if selling more, increase, his
> stock
> in trade.
(Just as a bank has to increase its 'stock', its 'deposits' or
> whatever else
we've been foolish enough to allow it to use as its
> reserves,
> if it wants to
lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to doing this ~ banks 'pay'
> interest as well as
receive it. And 'more' interest when they want more
> deposits.)
>
> If the stock
the merchant buys has risen in price, what he might have
>
taken
> for himself in profit is diminished. It goes back to fund the new
stock,
> or
> he has to take out a larger overdraft to do so. His sales may be
rising,
> and so in terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE of profit
in
> ratio to that increase in sales taken over time is in continuing
>
decline.
> 'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the business sense, are exactly
the
> same. One of the components of 'interest', as we've seen, is allowance
>
for
> 'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit' would likely then have to
> be
> the same. It is why I believe Douglas noted that "large works on
>
completion
> are paid for by an expansion of credit." The words "on completion"
imply
> there must be a FURTHER expansion of credit
beyond that which took place
> to
> initiate the construction of those 'large
works'. The 'inflation' is
> continuous, and the community pays for its progress
twice. Unless there
> is
> an implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon
we can finally begin
> to
> enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the
proper decline in overall
> retail prices that capital appreciation should have
brought about.
>
>
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