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Hi Martin
The poor showing of the Democrats for Social Credit in the last NZ elections
were the result of a combination of factors. Some were external to the party and
some internal.
We were part of a
coalition of minor parties called the Alliance from 1993 prior to the 2002
election and had two MP's who, unfortunately, were very ineffective in
propagating SC monetary reform policies. That Alliance split apart in 2002 and
we supported the ousted leader of the Alliance at the 2002 election. In
restrospect I believe we should have gone out on our own then. We decided to
revert to the independant Democrat party in 2003, and then had to rebuild our
membership and reorganise which we had allowed to lapse during our Alliance
days. The 2005 election took place while we are still rebuilding our power base
and reminding the electorate that a monetary reform party still exists on NZ.
These were the internal problems. Externally, we along with every other
minor party in NZ, have had to fight the TV news media for air time and news
paper coverage. The former is effectively controlled by the two major parties,
who have bagged lion's share of public electioneering monies by virtue of their
representation in Parliament. The latter are controlled by international finance
who have a vested interest in trying to restore the old corrupt two party system
responsible for the disasterous indeptedness of our country.
Alternative policies to those of
the two major parties were deliberately ignored by the news media. We are back
to the situation we faced in the mid 1970's when a big split nearly
destroyed the party, but there are ways we can correct the problems before the
next election. There is a fertile ground for our policies particularly if we
attack the banking system here which is almost totally foreigned owned. It was
one of the conditions for accepting IMF loans together with cutting of "welfare
spending" (This included reducing old age pensions and unemployment
benefits).
Incidently in case
the plug is totally pulled on this forum my personal e-mail is wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz ifyou ever wish to
contact me personally.
Have a good New Year
Martin
Bill
McGunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 12:20
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together
Bill -
Thanks for all the background.
I ordered a copy of Michel Chossudovsky's
"Globalization of Poverty", and his comments on the work of the IMF, WTO and
World Bank make them look more like a criminal conspiracy to take over the
world by putting countries through the "race to the bottom" in the name of
"free enterprise" than any sort of organizations devoted to the public
good.
Makes me sad to see that New Zealand (which used
to get worried if unemployment went over 1%) has now joined the ranks of the
indebted "have nots". It seems as if the Democratic-Social Credit party bombed
badly in the past election, presumably because the electorate either didn't
understand or didn't want monetary reform. Any comments or explanations of
this?
All the best for 2006 -
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:29
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together
Hi Martin
Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those references. John Rawson
says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", so I will be able
to access that volume. John and I have been friends and fellow workers in
the Socred Movement in NZ for over 20 years. I joined the movement in 1980
after retiring from the Army. I was unable to do so prior to this because
serving Army Officers are forbidden by law to be members of a political
organisation in NZ. John and I began working together in 1984 when I moved
to Northland NZ. I appreciate all the comments made by members of the forum
on monetary reform matters. Incidently I have a brother in Singapore who,
although he has no connection to the Socerd movement, has moved into the
monetary reform camp. He compared the way Singapore and Malaysia handled the
"Monetary Crisis" of the late 1980's to that of countries that begged
funding from the IMF and World Bank. Those who borrowed from the IMF are
still in crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia are flourishing. this contrasts
to Indonesia where a country rich in natural resources cannot provide for
its people because of crippling debt requirements. When he retires he
intends to broadcast his findings in an attempt to educate people to the
scam of international banking.
Bill Mc
Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006
7:27 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together
I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and
Debt", that was reprinted by Omni Publications in California quite some
time ago - I'm not sure that they are still in business. I could perhaps
ask Wally Klinck to scan it for me and send you a copy, though that's a
bit of a tall order..
I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and there
are several references to Soddy and his writings there. I think you might
follow that route up and get what you are looking for. Good
Luck!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:05
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together
Hi Martin
Where can I obtain copies of the work of Professor Soddy? The paper you
created in 1988 was of great interest to me, and followed much of the
thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on the monetary reform
matters.
I certainly
agree that the monetary concepts that govern so called "modern
economics" definitely do not cope with the ever increasing debt problem, and its stiffling effect on
human development. Effectively we have a monetary system developed in
the 15th century geared to the selfish needs of Italian single city
states trying to cope with a global economy that requires global equity
of opportunity to access finance. The situation is unstable, hence
we have want and starvation in a world of plenty.
Bill Mc Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006
1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for
his discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another way of
looking at A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas holus bolus.
There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and
Douglas's price discount is the neatest way of balancing
production with demand, without demanding unnecessary work from
anyone, that I know of - a definitely better
alternative.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 31,
2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
That's a very interesting paper,
Martin, as are all your pieces. Thanks. I
don't think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others in
comparison to those of Douglas.
In Soddy I see some similarities with
Douglas, but different terminology and concepts. And
objective. Soddy seems to be more in favour of a 'stable price
level' than a constantly 'falling' one. As
Douglas envisioned through an application of
credit enabling all the benefits of continually advancing
technology to be accessed 'financially' by consumers in the
provision of desired product, As well as provision
for increased leisure .
Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating
credit for spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free
'consumer' credits to individuals. Is this a large part of the
reason why many find 'government' infrastructure
spending in a slump so attractive? To try to keep up the
price level?
I guess it's difficult for many to initially
envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold for less than
financial cost on an ongoing basis without businesses being
ruined, Simply through the employment of a
different technique of credit. But I think
true 'consumer' demand made ''effective demand''
would then create renewed economic activity far more
effectively than 'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever
will.
I've nothing against 'needed'
infrastructure being built, but not as 'make work' projects to
provide an unnecessary 'moral' reason for paying people an
'income'. As well as a means of
keeping them 'under control'.
Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan'
to me in that regard~ he seems concerned to keep everyone
'working'. The goal of a triumph of the
individual's 'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power'
externally imposed economically on him, something so
prevalent in Douglas, seems to be absent with
Soddy.
I get the impression from what you've
written and quoted he thinks the 'government' knows
best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas
completely figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered for
discovering isotopes.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 29,
2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the
late Professor Soddy for the
Eastern Economics Association. I
think Soddy's description of the "J curve"
phenomenon
essentially describes the problem we have to tackle.
Martin
Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
-----
Original Message -----
From: "Joe Thomson"
<thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29,
2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all
together
>I agree with a great deal of what Martin
has written identifying the
> problems, but I do not fully
concur with some of the solutions. This may
> well be
due to a lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm reading into
> what
> Martin's proposing something that isn't
intended by him. But there are
> some
>
concerns I have with some of what's proposed nevertheless.
I'll come back
> to them later, but for the moment I'd like
to comment on just this.
>
> (Martin wrote:-)
> 5. What this initial expression of the theorem
omitted
> was the fact that
>> certain industries
distribute wages to their workers, while not putting
>>
goods on the market for immediate sale to consumers. These are
the
> factories
>> that make the tools that workers
will later use to turn out actual
> products.
>>
While this new capital formation is taking place, its distribution
of
> funds
>> to consumers in wages and dividends,
particularly when financed by newly
>> created bank
credit, serves as a form of National Dividend that makes
it
>> possible for the consuming public to buy all that
is on the market for
> sale,
>> without producers
being forced to sell below cost.
>
> (Joe
replies:-) There is a quote in one of the early Douglas
books that
> remarks " ....just as the construction of
a new railway bridge raises the
> price of bacon in a
village shop." While there is no doubt that 'newly
>
created bank credit' to finance new works serves as you say,
however it is
> also, I think, true what Douglas
says.
>
> He notes that the upper limit of price is
governed roughly by the
> 'quantity
> theory of
money'. The lower by financial 'cost'. If there's 'more
money
> about' the merchant is going to try and get 'more'
of it. He has to, if
> he's to stay in
business. Simply because the fact there IS 'more
money
> about' has diluted the purchasing power of ALL money
about.
>
> He is selling in the hopes of making a
profit. The same as a bank lends at
> interest in hopes of
the same. But money is variable in what it will
>
'buy',
> and he has to continually replace and, if
selling more, increase, his
> stock
> in trade.
(Just as a bank has to increase its 'stock', its 'deposits'
or
> whatever else we've been foolish enough to allow it to
use as its
> reserves,
> if it wants to lend 'more'.
There is a 'cost' to doing this ~ banks 'pay'
> interest as
well as receive it. And 'more' interest when they want
more
> deposits.)
>
> If the stock the merchant
buys has risen in price, what he might have
> taken
>
for himself in profit is diminished. It goes back to fund
the new stock,
> or
> he has to take out a larger
overdraft to do so. His sales may be rising,
> and so
in terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE of
profit in
> ratio to that increase in sales taken
over time is in continuing
> decline.
>
'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the business sense, are
exactly the
> same. One of the components of
'interest', as we've seen, is allowance
> for
>
'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit' would likely
then have to
> be
> the same. It is why I
believe Douglas noted that "large works on
>
completion
> are paid for by an expansion of credit."
The words "on completion" imply
> there must be a FURTHER
expansion of credit beyond that which took place
>
to
> initiate the construction of those 'large works'.
The 'inflation' is
> continuous, and the community pays for
its progress twice. Unless there
> is
> an
implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon we can finally
begin
> to
> enjoy as consumers the fruits of
progress at the proper decline in overall
> retail prices
that capital appreciation should have brought
about.
>
>
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