| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together | | Date: | Saturday, January 7, 2006 20:32:02 (-0700) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <hattersleyjm @.........com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 3320 (written by W. McGunnigle) |
Bill -
Thanks - I'm glad to hear that all is not lost in New Zealand.
I toy with the idea that all may not be lost also in the financial world. The
Internet does provide a way for some enterprising soul to create some sort of
unofficial currency which could be debt free and not under the control of the
existing banking system. Does anyone have knowledge of anything existing of this
sort?
I still like the idea of organizing "International Honesty Day" - a date (I
suggest April 1st) when as many folks in the world as can be persuaded to do so
ask to withdraw their deposits from the bank in cash "just to make sure they are
there". It might be educational. I think back to the immense amount of printing
of paper money that went on around the year 2000, because of a fear that computer
glitches then might cause there to be a run on the banking system. The whole
financial system is really a card house waiting to collapse!!
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: W. McGunnigle
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Hi Martin
The poor showing of the Democrats for Social Credit in the last
NZ elections were the result of a combination of factors. Some were external to
the party and some internal.
We were part of a coalition of minor parties called the Alliance from
1993 prior to the 2002 election and had two MP's who, unfortunately, were very
ineffective in propagating SC monetary reform policies. That Alliance split apart
in 2002 and we supported the ousted leader of the Alliance at the 2002 election.
In restrospect I believe we should have gone out on our own then. We decided to
revert to the independant Democrat party in 2003, and then had to rebuild our
membership and reorganise which we had allowed to lapse during our Alliance days.
The 2005 election took place while we are still rebuilding our power base and
reminding the electorate that a monetary reform party still exists on NZ. These
were the internal problems. Externally, we along with every other minor party in
NZ, have had to fight the TV news media for air time and news paper coverage. The
former is effectively controlled by the two major parties, who have bagged lion's
share of public electioneering monies by virtue of their representation in
Parliament. The latter are controlled by international finance who have a vested
interest in trying to restore the old corrupt two party system responsible for
the disasterous indeptedness of our country.
Alternative policies to those of the two major parties were deliberately
ignored by the news media. We are back to the situation we faced in the mid
1970's when a big split nearly destroyed the party, but there are ways we can
correct the problems before the next election. There is a fertile ground for our
policies particularly if we attack the banking system here which is almost
totally foreigned owned. It was one of the conditions for accepting IMF loans
together with cutting of "welfare spending" (This included reducing old age
pensions and unemployment benefits).
Incidently in case the plug is totally pulled on this forum my personal
e-mail is wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz ifyou ever wish to contact me personally.
Have a good New Year Martin
Bill McGunnigle
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Hattersley
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Bill -
Thanks for all the background.
I ordered a copy of Michel Chossudovsky's "Globalization of Poverty", and
his comments on the work of the IMF, WTO and World Bank make them look more like
a criminal conspiracy to take over the world by putting countries through the
"race to the bottom" in the name of "free enterprise" than any sort of
organizations devoted to the public good.
Makes me sad to see that New Zealand (which used to get worried if
unemployment went over 1%) has now joined the ranks of the indebted "have nots".
It seems as if the Democratic-Social Credit party bombed badly in the past
election, presumably because the electorate either didn't understand or didn't
want monetary reform. Any comments or explanations of this?
All the best for 2006 -
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St. Edmonton AB Canada
Phone (780)423-2081; Fax (780)425-5247
e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca;
hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: W. McGunnigle
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Hi Martin
Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those
references. John Rawson says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt",
so I will be able to access that volume. John and I have been friends and fellow
workers in the Socred Movement in NZ for over 20 years. I joined the movement in
1980 after retiring from the Army. I was unable to do so prior to this because
serving Army Officers are forbidden by law to be members of a political
organisation in NZ. John and I began working together in 1984 when I moved to
Northland NZ. I appreciate all the comments made by members of the forum on
monetary reform matters. Incidently I have a brother in Singapore who, although
he has no connection to the Socerd movement, has moved into the monetary reform
camp. He compared the way Singapore and Malaysia handled the "Monetary Crisis" of
the late 1980's to that of countries that begged funding from the IMF and World
Bank. Those who borrowed from the IMF are still in crisis, but Singapore and
Malaysia are flourishing. this contrasts to Indonesia where a country rich in
natural resources cannot provide for its people because of crippling debt
requirements. When he retires he intends to broadcast his findings in an attempt
to educate people to the scam of international banking.
Bill Mc Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Hattersley
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", that was
reprinted by Omni Publications in California quite some time ago - I'm not sure
that they are still in business. I could perhaps ask Wally Klinck to scan it for
me and send you a copy, though that's a bit of a tall order..
I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and there are several
references to Soddy and his writings there. I think you might follow that route
up and get what you are looking for. Good Luck!
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: W. McGunnigle
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Hi Martin
Where can I obtain copies of the work of Professor
Soddy? The paper you created in 1988 was of great interest to me, and followed
much of the thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on the monetary reform
matters.
I certainly agree that the monetary concepts that govern so
called "modern economics" definitely do not cope with the ever increasing debt
problem, and its stiffling effect on human development. Effectively we have a
monetary system developed in the 15th century geared to the selfish needs of
Italian single city states trying to cope with a global economy that requires
global equity of opportunity to access finance. The situation is unstable, hence
we have want and starvation in a world of plenty.
Bill Mc Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Hattersley
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for his discussion of
the "J curve", which I think is another way of looking at A+B, rather than for
adopting his ideas holus bolus.
There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and Douglas's price
discount is the neatest way of balancing production with demand, without
demanding unnecessary work from anyone, that I know of - a definitely better
alternative.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Thomson
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
That's a very interesting paper, Martin, as are all your pieces.
Thanks. I don't think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others in
comparison to those of Douglas.
In Soddy I see some similarities with Douglas, but different
terminology and concepts. And objective. Soddy seems to be more in favour of a
'stable price level' than a constantly 'falling' one. As Douglas envisioned
through an application of credit enabling all the benefits of continually
advancing technology to be accessed 'financially' by consumers in the provision
of desired product, As well as provision for increased leisure .
Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating credit for spending on
infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer' credits to individuals. Is
this a large part of the reason why many find 'government' infrastructure
spending in a slump so attractive? To try to keep up the price level?
I guess it's difficult for many to initially envision how
'consumer' goods could be sold for less than financial cost on an ongoing basis
without businesses being ruined, Simply through the employment of a different
technique of credit. But I think true 'consumer' demand made ''effective
demand'' would then create renewed economic activity far more effectively than
'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever will.
I've nothing against 'needed' infrastructure being built, but not
as 'make work' projects to provide an unnecessary 'moral' reason for paying
people an 'income'. As well as a means of keeping them 'under control'.
Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to me in that regard~ he
seems concerned to keep everyone 'working'. The goal of a triumph of the
individual's 'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power' externally imposed
economically on him, something so prevalent in Douglas, seems to be absent with
Soddy.
I get the impression from what you've written and quoted he
thinks the 'government' knows best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas
completely figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered for discovering
isotopes.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Hattersley
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late Professor
Soddy for the
Eastern Economics Association. I think Soddy's description of
the "J curve"
phenomenon essentially describes the problem we have to tackle.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>I agree with a great deal of what Martin has written
identifying the
> problems, but I do not fully concur with some of the
solutions. This may
> well be due to a lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm
reading into
> what
> Martin's proposing something that isn't intended by him. But
there are
> some
> concerns I have with some of what's proposed nevertheless.
I'll come back
> to them later, but for the moment I'd like to comment on just
this.
>
> (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this initial expression of the
theorem omitted
> was the fact that
>> certain industries distribute wages to their workers, while
not putting
>> goods on the market for immediate sale to consumers. These
are the
> factories
>> that make the tools that workers will later use to turn out
actual
> products.
>> While this new capital formation is taking place, its
distribution of
> funds
>> to consumers in wages and dividends, particularly when
financed by newly
>> created bank credit, serves as a form of National Dividend
that makes it
>> possible for the consuming public to buy all that is on the
market for
> sale,
>> without producers being forced to sell below cost.
>
> (Joe replies:-) There is a quote in one of the early Douglas
books that
> remarks " ....just as the construction of a new railway
bridge raises the
> price of bacon in a village shop." While there is no doubt
that 'newly
> created bank credit' to finance new works serves as you say,
however it is
> also, I think, true what Douglas says.
>
> He notes that the upper limit of price is governed roughly by
the
> 'quantity
> theory of money'. The lower by financial 'cost'. If there's
'more money
> about' the merchant is going to try and get 'more' of it. He
has to, if
> he's to stay in business. Simply because the fact there IS
'more money
> about' has diluted the purchasing power of ALL money about.
>
> He is selling in the hopes of making a profit. The same as a
bank lends at
> interest in hopes of the same. But money is variable in what
it will
> 'buy',
> and he has to continually replace and, if selling more,
increase, his
> stock
> in trade. (Just as a bank has to increase its 'stock', its
'deposits' or
> whatever else we've been foolish enough to allow it to use as
its
> reserves,
> if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to doing this ~
banks 'pay'
> interest as well as receive it. And 'more' interest when they
want more
> deposits.)
>
> If the stock the merchant buys has risen in price, what he
might have
> taken
> for himself in profit is diminished. It goes back to fund the
new stock,
> or
> he has to take out a larger overdraft to do so. His sales may
be rising,
> and so in terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE of
profit in
> ratio to that increase in sales taken over time is in
continuing
> decline.
> 'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the business sense, are
exactly the
> same. One of the components of 'interest', as we've seen, is
allowance
> for
> 'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit' would likely
then have to
> be
> the same. It is why I believe Douglas noted that "large works
on
> completion
> are paid for by an expansion of credit." The words "on
completion" imply
> there must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that which
took place
> to
> initiate the construction of those 'large works'. The
'inflation' is
> continuous, and the community pays for its progress twice.
Unless there
> is
> an implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon we can
finally begin
> to
> enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the proper
decline in overall
> retail prices that capital appreciation should have brought
about.
>
>
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<DIV><FONT size=2>Bill -</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Thanks - I'm glad to hear that all is not lost in New
Zealand.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I toy with the idea that all may not be lost also in the
financial world. The Internet does provide a way for some enterprising soul to
create some sort of unofficial currency which could be debt free and not under
the control of the existing banking system. Does anyone have knowledge of
anything existing of this sort?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I still like the idea of organizing "International Honesty
Day" - a date (I suggest April 1st) when as many folks in the world as can be
persuaded to do so ask to withdraw their deposits from the bank in cash "just to
make sure they are there". It might be educational. I think back to the immense
amount of printing of paper money that went on around the year 2000, because of
a fear that computer glitches then might cause there to be a run on the banking
system. The whole financial system is really a card house waiting to
collapse!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB CANADA<BR>Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz href="mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">W.
McGunnigle</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 06, 2006 6:37
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Martin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
The poor showing of the Democrats for Social Credit in the last NZ elections
were the result of a combination of factors. Some were external to the party
and some internal.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> We were part of a
coalition of minor parties called the Alliance from 1993 prior to the 2002
election and had two MP's who, unfortunately, were very ineffective in
propagating SC monetary reform policies. That Alliance split apart in 2002 and
we supported the ousted leader of the Alliance at the 2002 election. In
restrospect I believe we should have gone out on our own then. We decided to
revert to the independant Democrat party in 2003, and then had to rebuild our
membership and reorganise which we had allowed to lapse during our Alliance
days. The 2005 election took place while we are still rebuilding our power
base and reminding the electorate that a monetary reform party still exists on
NZ. These were the internal problems. Externally, we along with every
other minor party in NZ, have had to fight the TV news media for air time and
news paper coverage. The former is effectively controlled by the two major
parties, who have bagged lion's share of public electioneering monies by
virtue of their representation in Parliament. The latter are controlled by
international finance who have a vested interest in trying to restore the old
corrupt two party system responsible for the disasterous indeptedness of our
country.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Alternative policies to those
of the two major parties were deliberately ignored by the news media. We are
back to the situation we faced in the mid 1970's when a big split
nearly destroyed the party, but there are ways we can correct the problems
before the next election. There is a fertile ground for our policies
particularly if we attack the banking system here which is almost totally
foreigned owned. It was one of the conditions for accepting IMF loans together
with cutting of "welfare spending" (This included reducing old age pensions
and unemployment benefits).</FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Incidently in case
the plug is totally pulled on this forum my personal e-mail is <A
href="mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz</A> ifyou ever wish to
contact me personally.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Have a good New
Year Martin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Bill
McGunnigle</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 06, 2006 12:20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bill -</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks for all the background.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I ordered a copy of Michel Chossudovsky's
"Globalization of Poverty", and his comments on the work of the IMF, WTO and
World Bank make them look more like a criminal conspiracy to take over the
world by putting countries through the "race to the bottom" in the name of
"free enterprise" than any sort of organizations devoted to the public
good.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Makes me sad to see that New Zealand (which
used to get worried if unemployment went over 1%) has now joined the ranks
of the indebted "have nots". It seems as if the Democratic-Social Credit
party bombed badly in the past election, presumably because the electorate
either didn't understand or didn't want monetary reform. Any comments or
explanations of this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>All the best for 2006 -</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99
St. Edmonton AB Canada<BR>Phone (780)423-2081; Fax (780)425-5247<BR>e-mail:
<A href="mailto:jmartinh@shaw.ca">jmartinh@shaw.ca</A>;<BR><A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz href="mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">W.
McGunnigle</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:29
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Martin </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those references. John
Rawson says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", so I will
be able to access that volume. John and I have been friends and fellow
workers in the Socred Movement in NZ for over 20 years. I joined the
movement in 1980 after retiring from the Army. I was unable to do so prior
to this because serving Army Officers are forbidden by law to be members
of a political organisation in NZ. John and I began working together in
1984 when I moved to Northland NZ. I appreciate all the comments made by
members of the forum on monetary reform matters. Incidently I have a
brother in Singapore who, although he has no connection to the Socerd
movement, has moved into the monetary reform camp. He compared the way
Singapore and Malaysia handled the "Monetary Crisis" of the late 1980's to
that of countries that begged funding from the IMF and World Bank. Those
who borrowed from the IMF are still in crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia
are flourishing. this contrasts to Indonesia where a country rich in
natural resources cannot provide for its people because of crippling debt
requirements. When he retires he intends to broadcast his findings in an
attempt to educate people to the scam of international
banking.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2> Bill Mc
Gunnigle</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 04, 2006
7:27 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual Wealth
and Debt", that was reprinted by Omni Publications in California quite
some time ago - I'm not sure that they are still in business. I could
perhaps ask Wally Klinck to scan it for me and send you a copy, though
that's a bit of a tall order..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and there
are several references to Soddy and his writings there. I think you
might follow that route up and get what you are looking for. Good
Luck!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB
CANADA<BR>Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz href="mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">W.
McGunnigle</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 02, 2006
8:05 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Martin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
Where can I obtain copies of the work of Professor Soddy? The paper
you created in 1988 was of great interest to me, and followed much of
the thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on the monetary reform
matters. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I
certainly agree that the monetary concepts that govern so called
"modern economics" definitely do not cope with</FONT> <FONT
face=Arial size=2>the ever increasing debt problem, and its stiffling
effect on human development. Effectively we have a monetary system
developed in the 15th century geared to the selfish needs of Italian
single city states trying to cope with a global economy that requires
global equity of opportunity to access finance. The situation is
unstable, hence we have want and starvation in a world of
plenty.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Bill Mc
Gunnigle</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 02, 2006
1:44 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for
his discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another way of
looking at A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas holus bolus.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and
Douglas's price discount is the neatest way of balancing
production with demand, without demanding unnecessary work from
anyone, that I know of - a definitely better
alternative.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB
CANADA<BR>Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca href="mailto:thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca">Joe
Thomson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 31,
2005 10:31 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>That's a very interesting paper,
Martin, as are all your pieces. Thanks. I
don't think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others in
comparison to those of Douglas. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>In Soddy I see some similarities with
Douglas, but different terminology and concepts. And
objective. Soddy seems to be more in favour of a 'stable price
level' than a constantly 'falling' one. As
Douglas envisioned through an application of
credit enabling all the benefits of continually advancing
technology to be accessed 'financially' by consumers in the
provision of desired product, As well as provision
for increased leisure . </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating
credit for spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free
'consumer' credits to individuals. Is this a large part of
the reason why many find 'government'
infrastructure spending in a slump so attractive? To
try to keep up the price level? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I guess it's difficult for many to initially
envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold for less than
financial cost on an ongoing basis without businesses being
ruined, Simply through the employment of a
different technique of credit. But I think
true 'consumer' demand made ''effective demand''
would then create renewed economic activity far more
effectively than 'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever
will. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial> I've nothing against 'needed'
infrastructure being built, but not as 'make work' projects to
provide an unnecessary 'moral' reason for paying people an
'income'. As well as a means of
keeping them 'under control'. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan'
to me in that regard~ he seems concerned to keep
everyone 'working'. The goal of a triumph of the
individual's 'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power'
externally imposed economically on
him, something so prevalent in Douglas,
seems to be absent with Soddy. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial> I get the impression from what you've
written and quoted he thinks the 'government' knows
best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas
completely figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered
for discovering isotopes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Joe</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December
29, 2005 7:02 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the
late Professor Soddy for the <BR>Eastern Economics Association.
I think Soddy's description of the "J curve" <BR>phenomenon
essentially describes the problem we have to
tackle.<BR><BR>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99
St.,<BR>EDMONTON AB CANADA<BR>Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A><BR>-----
Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Joe Thomson"
<thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca><BR>To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com><BR>Sent: Thursday, December 29,
2005 9:35 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all
together<BR><BR><BR>>I agree with a great deal of what Martin
has written identifying the<BR>> problems, but I do not fully
concur with some of the solutions. This may<BR>> well
be due to a lack of knowledge on my part, or that I'm reading
into <BR>> what<BR>> Martin's proposing something that
isn't intended by him. But there are <BR>> some<BR>>
concerns I have with some of what's proposed nevertheless.
I'll come back<BR>> to them later, but for the moment I'd
like to comment on just this.<BR>><BR>> (Martin
wrote:-) > 5. What this initial expression of the
theorem omitted<BR>> was the fact that<BR>>> certain
industries distribute wages to their workers, while not
putting<BR>>> goods on the market for immediate sale to
consumers. These are the<BR>> factories<BR>>> that make
the tools that workers will later use to turn out actual<BR>>
products.<BR>>> While this new capital formation is taking
place, its distribution of<BR>> funds<BR>>> to
consumers in wages and dividends, particularly when financed by
newly<BR>>> created bank credit, serves as a form of
National Dividend that makes it<BR>>> possible for the
consuming public to buy all that is on the market for<BR>>
sale,<BR>>> without producers being forced to sell below
cost.<BR>><BR>> (Joe replies:-) There is a quote in
one of the early Douglas books that<BR>> remarks "
....just as the construction of a new railway bridge raises
the<BR>> price of bacon in a village shop." While there
is no doubt that 'newly<BR>> created bank credit' to finance
new works serves as you say, however it is<BR>> also, I
think, true what Douglas says.<BR>><BR>> He notes that the
upper limit of price is governed roughly by the <BR>>
'quantity<BR>> theory of money'. The lower by financial
'cost'. If there's 'more money<BR>> about' the merchant
is going to try and get 'more' of it. He has to,
if<BR>> he's to stay in business. Simply because the
fact there IS 'more money<BR>> about' has diluted the
purchasing power of ALL money about.<BR>><BR>> He is
selling in the hopes of making a profit. The same as a bank
lends at<BR>> interest in hopes of the same. But money
is variable in what it will <BR>> 'buy',<BR>> and he
has to continually replace and, if selling more, increase, his
<BR>> stock<BR>> in trade. (Just as a bank has to
increase its 'stock', its 'deposits' or<BR>> whatever else
we've been foolish enough to allow it to use as its <BR>>
reserves,<BR>> if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost'
to doing this ~ banks 'pay'<BR>> interest as well as receive
it. And 'more' interest when they want more<BR>>
deposits.)<BR>><BR>> If the stock the merchant buys has
risen in price, what he might have <BR>> taken<BR>> for
himself in profit is diminished. It goes back to fund the
new stock, <BR>> or<BR>> he has to take out a larger
overdraft to do so. His sales may be rising,<BR>> and
so in terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE of
profit in<BR>> ratio to that increase in sales taken
over time is in continuing <BR>> decline.<BR>>
'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the business sense, are
exactly the<BR>> same. One of the components of
'interest', as we've seen, is allowance <BR>> for<BR>>
'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit' would
likely then have to <BR>> be<BR>> the same. It is
why I believe Douglas noted that "large works on <BR>>
completion<BR>> are paid for by an expansion of
credit." The words "on completion" imply<BR>> there
must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond that which took
place <BR>> to<BR>> initiate the construction of those
'large works'. The 'inflation' is<BR>> continuous, and
the community pays for its progress twice. Unless there
<BR>> is<BR>> an implimentation of the SC prescription,
whereupon we can finally begin <BR>> to<BR>> enjoy as
consumers the fruits of progress at the proper decline in
overall<BR>> retail prices that capital appreciation should
have brought about.<BR>><BR>>
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