|
Howdy John,
You have never liked me calling a spade a spade
John. Part-true? Come come, they were my perspectives from the
information I received and I didnt make them up so they are true to my
perspectives. You wouldnt know if you received the same. You on the
other hand said nothing about any specific fact regarding the your party and the
election. You waffled on generalities and made suggestions about how to
campaign after it is over.
Get real John.
Why talk about the public not appreciating your
policies. Did one percent of the voters actually see your policies?
The party I expect simply didnt have the resourses to sell anything to the the
general public other than select spots.
It was a little lean this time around for minor
parties which wouldnt have helped.
It should be a close one again next time but I
would expect that voters will be more liberal and take more interest in whats in
the derby.
Old traits die hard. Every election has
thrown up a new variation of MMP composition. And every election just
about has caused some to say 'it wont last' and it does. Many expected
National to go back in because it would have under first past the post. I
think people will start to realise that it is very different and
take a little more interest which will mean the voting should become more
positive less negative. I would expect the door knockers will pick
that up it if does. I assume you are one of those John.
Peter H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 5:05
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together
OK, we have had an excellent overview of the factors affecting small
parties in general from Bill and a somewhat antagonistic but nevertheless
true-in-parts comment from Peter. We all have those who want the glory
but someone else to do the work.
Yes, the last election was successfully turned into a clash between those
scared of the Government continuing and those afraid of change. It succeeded
even with some of our own Party Members. But the Greens, by comparison,
retained representation. The reason for the difference, I
believe, is that they sell the need for environmental legislation to a
good number of people. We tried to sell the product, excellent policy
(which we have had always), to a public who couldn't see the need for
it. And who couldn't give a stuff about even finding out what the policy
was of a group without a snowball's chance of applying any of
it in the forseeable future. A "presidential" campaign requires
possession of someone with the chance to become the "president" at the end of
the campaign. We need many years of hard work to reach this
stage.
Politics, particularly in relation to economics, like insurance in the
community, is an imponderable. Insurance agents who try to
sell excellent policies without pointing out the dangers of not having
any, go broke. I believe Douglas' "people power" approach might succeed
if it heeded this principle, but is handicapped if it concentrates on
simply promoting his policies, no matter how sound. And doomed
completely the moment there is dissension on how some point might be
applied.
In addition, New Zealanders, (like others in the world?), tend mostly to
vote negatively. In 2005 this probably was more accentuated than ever,
with the nation divided fairly evenly between those who feared the prospect of
a National government and those badly wanting a change from Labour. The
media, of course, whipped it to a frenzy.
The answer, I believe applies to all forms of the monetary reform
movements, whether through political action or not. We need to get
across to people that fact that the present financial system is evil,
dishonest and outdated. That it hurts both rich (except for the few
directly benefitting from it) and the poor. We need to explain it in common
standard language, avoiding anything that looks like lunatic fringe
lingo. We need to get it across so well that many people become
determined to vote against this monstrosity (vote for us); that they are
ashamed to support those old political parties. And with tight control
of most of the media, we have only two avenues, the "net" and personal
approach to people. Yes, hard work. So is selling insurance,
believe it or not.
What is more, the propaganda aligned against us through the standard media
is so strong that, even if a miracle placed a monetary reform government
into power, the public could be turned against it in months, possibly weeks,
if there was not a reasonable number of citizens who understood what they were
doing and why.
One of our greatest problems, I believe, is that so many of our proposals
are so sensible and the present system so stupid, that many people simply will
not believe that the policies need putting into place. There are many
good, intelligent, honest and well-meaning people in all political parties,
and in a small country at least, many know them personally. They just can't
believe they would ever condone anything so bad as we portray needing
reform. They fail to take note of the fact that most of these
politicians and officxials either are well-educated experts in their own
fields who instinctively leave economic concerns to the "experts" in that
one, or are simply too busy (or lazy) to check out the problems.
I am not saying that we must not have crystal clear ideas of exactly what
we intend to do and how, for the sake of policy formulation and for those very
few who approach us from an intellectual level and therefore may become
valuable workers for us. Possibly nobody else in our party has done more
"stirring" along these lines than I have. But for the general public we need a
simple approach that gets them at least worried about what the present system
is costing them now and where it is leading their nation.
If anyone replying to this can name one really successful politician,
anywhere in the world or at any time, who has not given his public an "enemy"
to fear or hate, it will be new to me. Our problem will
be to keep it to principles and organisations, without descending to the
personalities employed by many of our present leaders.
Regards. John R.
From:
"Peter Haines" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
Reply-To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 12:08:46
+1300
Howdy Bill,
I agree with your overview which was largely
history. The one sentence about this past election - that you were
still rebuilding the power-base and reminding NZ there was still a m/reform
party - was a very expensive exercise that probably undermined
both. There is a presumption that the electorate knows what
monetary reform is.
From the scattered fragments I received I
percieved that the party has a financial blowout, resulting in
substantial dissension which is counterproductive for any powerbase
developent and showed the electorate that the party cant attract any
interest in todays world.
In short they would have been better off to
just keep on building membership, gone in twos and threes to National and
Labour meetings and challenged them on debt issues in public and the like to
put these issue in the public mind.
The gauntlet small parties have to run as you
pointed out are old parts of the political landscape. So its foot
soldiers that are needed, for letterbox drops, door knocking
and letters to the editor. In my electorate I saw two billboards
and nothing else. It's not a commercial art
competition.
I would say that the number of people who
appreciate the need of monetary reform, mostly past supporters number a lot
more than those who voted for them.
If this was the basis of the election campaign
then it would have been cheaper to call on past members in a variety of
electorates and interview them and make an accessment of potential support
at no cost. After all the wasted money they still dont know what these
people think today.
The arguing that goes on within the party shows
it is a mixed bag of people who have a simple and clear idea of what they
are against but fragented regards a clear and comprehensive
idea of what they are FOR and how to go about it.
The decisions regarding the election appear to
be based more on immature and psychological internal needs not cold reality
of the world outside. One of the biggest hurdles is the
desire in the majority of the rank and file membership- we want a messiah (
like Betheem became) because then it all happens so easily and no one has to
get out and footslog or fundraise etc as much, just pay their sub, attend a
few meetings, shake the Mans hand and sit back and wait for the votes to
roll in.
There have been a lot of frustrated and very
talented people go through the SC party over the decades and
they rarely go back.
There were huge structural and functional
faults in the party when I was involved, the late 80s to mid 90s,
which can be the measure of their results.
There was also another party that just started
out in the last election, the leader of which has an understanding of SC but
the party was focused more towards constitutional issues, appreciating that
one needs to build on good foundations not just on anything, consistent
with Douglas. It was called Direct Democracy. I havent seen
their election results and I expect they would not have done any
better. The average NZer who watches the 6 pm news on tellie and looks
through the headlines of a newspaper several times a week and reads some
letters to the editor probably feels they know it all so any party that gets
out on the fringe and wants to prove chalk isnt cheese is going to find it
hard going.
However there seems to be an absense of
'lessons learned in the past' in the party and so they seem to be moving
around in a circle not moving on.
Social Crediters should be the most
dynamic organised people in the world. The keys, I believe,
are right under our noses but we are only interested in
money in the main and so we remain divided servants. Rather ironic
really.
Thanks for your very interesting post re the
international banks.
Peter H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:37
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together
Hi Martin
The poor showing of the Democrats for Social Credit in the last NZ
elections were the result of a combination of factors. Some were external
to the party and some internal.
We were part
of a coalition of minor parties called the Alliance from 1993 prior to the
2002 election and had two MP's who, unfortunately, were very ineffective
in propagating SC monetary reform policies. That Alliance split apart in
2002 and we supported the ousted leader of the Alliance at the 2002
election. In restrospect I believe we should have gone out on our own
then. We decided to revert to the independant Democrat party in 2003, and
then had to rebuild our membership and reorganise which we had allowed to
lapse during our Alliance days. The 2005 election took place while we are
still rebuilding our power base and reminding the electorate that a
monetary reform party still exists on NZ. These were the internal
problems. Externally, we along with every other minor party in NZ,
have had to fight the TV news media for air time and news paper coverage.
The former is effectively controlled by the two major parties, who have
bagged lion's share of public electioneering monies by virtue of their
representation in Parliament. The latter are controlled by international
finance who have a vested interest in trying to restore the old corrupt
two party system responsible for the disasterous indeptedness of our
country.
Alternative policies to
those of the two major parties were deliberately ignored by the news
media. We are back to the situation we faced in the mid
1970's when a big split nearly destroyed the party, but there are
ways we can correct the problems before the next election. There is a
fertile ground for our policies particularly if we attack the banking
system here which is almost totally foreigned owned. It was one of the
conditions for accepting IMF loans together with cutting of "welfare
spending" (This included reducing old age pensions and unemployment
benefits).
Incidently in
case the plug is totally pulled on this forum my personal e-mail is wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz ifyou ever
wish to contact me personally.
Have a good
New Year Martin
Bill
McGunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006
12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together
Bill -
Thanks for all the background.
I ordered a copy of Michel Chossudovsky's
"Globalization of Poverty", and his comments on the work of the IMF, WTO
and World Bank make them look more like a criminal conspiracy to take
over the world by putting countries through the "race to the bottom" in
the name of "free enterprise" than any sort of organizations devoted to
the public good.
Makes me sad to see that New Zealand (which
used to get worried if unemployment went over 1%) has now joined the
ranks of the indebted "have nots". It seems as if the Democratic-Social
Credit party bombed badly in the past election, presumably because the
electorate either didn't understand or didn't want monetary reform. Any
comments or explanations of this?
All the best for 2006 -
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006
3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
Hi Martin
Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those references. John
Rawson says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", so I
will be able to access that volume. John and I have been friends and
fellow workers in the Socred Movement in NZ for over 20 years. I
joined the movement in 1980 after retiring from the Army. I was unable
to do so prior to this because serving Army Officers are forbidden by
law to be members of a political organisation in NZ. John and I began
working together in 1984 when I moved to Northland NZ. I appreciate
all the comments made by members of the forum on monetary reform
matters. Incidently I have a brother in Singapore who, although he has
no connection to the Socerd movement, has moved into the monetary
reform camp. He compared the way Singapore and Malaysia handled the
"Monetary Crisis" of the late 1980's to that of countries that begged
funding from the IMF and World Bank. Those who borrowed from the IMF
are still in crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia are flourishing. this
contrasts to Indonesia where a country rich in natural resources
cannot provide for its people because of crippling debt requirements.
When he retires he intends to broadcast his findings in an attempt to
educate people to the scam of international banking.
Bill Mc
Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 04,
2006 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual
Wealth and Debt", that was reprinted by Omni Publications in
California quite some time ago - I'm not sure that they are still in
business. I could perhaps ask Wally Klinck to scan it for me and
send you a copy, though that's a bit of a tall order..
I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and
there are several references to Soddy and his writings there. I
think you might follow that route up and get what you are looking
for. Good Luck!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 02,
2006 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
Hi Martin
Where can I obtain copies of the work of Professor Soddy? The
paper you created in 1988 was of great interest to me, and
followed much of the thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on
the monetary reform matters.
I
certainly agree that the monetary concepts that govern so called
"modern economics" definitely do not cope with the ever increasing debt problem, and its
stiffling effect on human development. Effectively we have a
monetary system developed in the 15th century geared to the
selfish needs of Italian single city states trying to cope with a
global economy that requires global equity of opportunity
to access finance. The situation is unstable, hence we have
want and starvation in a world of plenty.
Bill Mc
Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 02,
2006 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more
for his discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another
way of looking at A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas holus
bolus.
There are more ways than one to skin a cat,
and Douglas's price discount is the neatest way of
balancing production with demand, without demanding unnecessary
work from anyone, that I know of - a definitely better
alternative.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December
31, 2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Re:
[socialcredit] Putting it all together
That's a very interesting paper,
Martin, as are all your pieces.
Thanks. I don't think it hurts to explore
some of the ideas of others in comparison to those
of Douglas.
In Soddy I see some similarities
with Douglas, but different terminology and concepts.
And objective. Soddy seems to be more in favour of a 'stable
price level' than a constantly 'falling'
one. As Douglas envisioned through an
application of credit enabling all the benefits of
continually advancing technology to be
accessed 'financially' by consumers in the provision of
desired product, As well as provision for increased
leisure .
Soddy seems to prefer 'government'
creating credit for spending on infrastructure rather than new
debt-free 'consumer' credits to individuals. Is this a
large part of the reason why many find
'government' infrastructure spending in a slump so
attractive? To try to keep up the price level?
I guess it's difficult for many to
initially envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold
for less than financial cost on an ongoing basis without
businesses being ruined, Simply through the
employment of a different technique of
credit. But I think true 'consumer'
demand made ''effective demand'' would then create
renewed economic activity far more effectively than
'infrastructure spending' pump priming ever
will.
I've nothing against 'needed'
infrastructure being built, but not as 'make work' projects to
provide an unnecessary 'moral' reason for paying people
an 'income'. As well as a means of
keeping them 'under control'.
Soddy sounds like a bit of a
'puritan' to me in that regard~ he seems
concerned to keep everyone
'working'. The goal of a triumph of the
individual's 'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power'
externally imposed economically on
him, something so prevalent in Douglas,
seems to be absent with Soddy.
I get the impression from what
you've written and quoted he thinks the 'government'
knows best. Personally, I think once we get
Douglas completely figured out, Soddy will best remain
remembered for discovering isotopes.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday,
December 29, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Re:
[socialcredit] Putting it all together
I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on
the late Professor Soddy for the
Eastern Economics
Association. I think Soddy's description of the "J curve"
phenomenon essentially describes the problem we have to
tackle.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99
St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
-----
Original Message -----
From: "Joe Thomson"
<thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Thursday, December
29, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together
>I agree with a great deal of
what Martin has written identifying the
> problems,
but I do not fully concur with some of the solutions.
This may
> well be due to a lack of knowledge on my
part, or that I'm reading into
> what
>
Martin's proposing something that isn't intended by
him. But there are
> some
> concerns I
have with some of what's proposed nevertheless. I'll
come back
> to them later, but for the moment I'd like
to comment on just this.
>
> (Martin
wrote:-) > 5. What this initial expression of the
theorem omitted
> was the fact that
>>
certain industries distribute wages to their workers, while
not putting
>> goods on the market for immediate
sale to consumers. These are the
>
factories
>> that make the tools that workers will
later use to turn out actual
> products.
>>
While this new capital formation is taking place, its
distribution of
> funds
>> to consumers in
wages and dividends, particularly when financed by
newly
>> created bank credit, serves as a form of
National Dividend that makes it
>> possible for the
consuming public to buy all that is on the market
for
> sale,
>> without producers being forced
to sell below cost.
>
> (Joe replies:-)
There is a quote in one of the early Douglas books
that
> remarks " ....just as the construction of
a new railway bridge raises the
> price of bacon in a
village shop." While there is no doubt that
'newly
> created bank credit' to finance new works
serves as you say, however it is
> also, I think, true
what Douglas says.
>
> He notes that the upper
limit of price is governed roughly by the
>
'quantity
> theory of money'. The lower by financial
'cost'. If there's 'more money
> about' the
merchant is going to try and get 'more' of it.
He has to, if
> he's to stay in business. Simply
because the fact there IS 'more money
> about' has
diluted the purchasing power of ALL money
about.
>
> He is selling in the hopes of making
a profit. The same as a bank lends at
> interest in
hopes of the same. But money is variable in what it
will
> 'buy',
> and he has to continually
replace and, if selling more, increase, his
>
stock
> in trade. (Just as a bank has to
increase its 'stock', its 'deposits' or
> whatever
else we've been foolish enough to allow it to use as its
> reserves,
> if it wants to lend 'more'. There
is a 'cost' to doing this ~ banks 'pay'
> interest as
well as receive it. And 'more' interest when they want
more
> deposits.)
>
> If the stock the
merchant buys has risen in price, what he might have
> taken
> for himself in profit is
diminished. It goes back to fund the new stock,
> or
> he has to take out a larger overdraft to
do so. His sales may be rising,
> and so in
terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE of
profit in
> ratio to that increase in sales
taken over time is in continuing
>
decline.
> 'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the
business sense, are exactly the
> same. One of
the components of 'interest', as we've seen, is allowance
> for
> 'inflation'. One of the
components of 'profit' would likely then have to
>
be
> the same. It is why I believe Douglas noted
that "large works on
> completion
> are paid
for by an expansion of credit." The words "on
completion" imply
> there must be a FURTHER expansion
of credit beyond that which took place
> to
>
initiate the construction of those 'large works'. The
'inflation' is
> continuous, and the community pays
for its progress twice. Unless there
>
is
> an implimentation of the SC prescription,
whereupon we can finally begin
> to
> enjoy as
consumers the fruits of progress at the proper decline in
overall
> retail prices that capital appreciation
should have brought about.
>
>
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Re: [socialcredit]
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