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Hi Peter
Basically I agree with your comments. We, in Northland, were aware of
those very problems, and made out opinion known. We were over-ruled by
others in the party. With respect to our campaign I don't share your pessimism
with respect to its being a total failure. Our Name is now back on the ballot
paper and people are aware we have returned. This gives us a starting point to
canvass old supporters and woo them back into the fold. We did precisely what
you suggested in Northland with respect to electoral meetings, and it proved
revealing. Certainly the majority of candidates had difficulty handling the
financial questions that we presented to them. That vindicates your expressed
views. Keep in contact Peter I appreciate your comments
Bill
McGunnigle
Incidently I am an
historian and I am in the process of completing a Masterate in History hence the
historical bent in some of my discources.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 12:08
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together
Howdy Bill,
I agree with your overview which was largely
history. The one sentence about this past election - that you were still
rebuilding the power-base and reminding NZ there was still a m/reform party -
was a very expensive exercise that probably undermined both. There
is a presumption that the electorate knows what monetary reform
is.
From the scattered fragments I received I
percieved that the party has a financial blowout, resulting in
substantial dissension which is counterproductive for any powerbase developent
and showed the electorate that the party cant attract any interest in todays
world.
In short they would have been better off to just
keep on building membership, gone in twos and threes to National and Labour
meetings and challenged them on debt issues in public and the like to put
these issue in the public mind.
The gauntlet small parties have to run as you
pointed out are old parts of the political landscape. So its foot
soldiers that are needed, for letterbox drops, door knocking and letters
to the editor. In my electorate I saw two billboards and nothing
else. It's not a commercial art competition.
I would say that the number of people who
appreciate the need of monetary reform, mostly past supporters number a lot
more than those who voted for them.
If this was the basis of the election campaign
then it would have been cheaper to call on past members in a variety of
electorates and interview them and make an accessment of potential support at
no cost. After all the wasted money they still dont know what these
people think today.
The arguing that goes on within the party shows
it is a mixed bag of people who have a simple and clear idea of what they are
against but fragented regards a clear and comprehensive idea of
what they are FOR and how to go about it.
The decisions regarding the election appear to be
based more on immature and psychological internal needs not cold reality of
the world outside. One of the biggest hurdles is the
desire in the majority of the rank and file membership- we want a messiah (
like Betheem became) because then it all happens so easily and no one has to
get out and footslog or fundraise etc as much, just pay their sub, attend a
few meetings, shake the Mans hand and sit back and wait for the votes to roll
in.
There have been a lot of frustrated and very
talented people go through the SC party over the decades and they rarely
go back.
There were huge structural and functional faults
in the party when I was involved, the late 80s to mid 90s, which can be
the measure of their results.
There was also another party that just started
out in the last election, the leader of which has an understanding of SC but
the party was focused more towards constitutional issues, appreciating that
one needs to build on good foundations not just on anything, consistent
with Douglas. It was called Direct Democracy. I havent seen
their election results and I expect they would not have done any better.
The average NZer who watches the 6 pm news on tellie and looks through the
headlines of a newspaper several times a week and reads some letters to the
editor probably feels they know it all so any party that gets out on the
fringe and wants to prove chalk isnt cheese is going to find it hard
going.
However there seems to be an absense of 'lessons
learned in the past' in the party and so they seem to be moving around in
a circle not moving on.
Social Crediters should be the most
dynamic organised people in the world. The keys, I believe,
are right under our noses but we are only interested in money
in the main and so we remain divided servants. Rather ironic
really.
Thanks for your very interesting post re the
international banks.
Peter H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:37
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it
all together
Hi Martin
The poor showing of the Democrats for Social Credit in the last NZ elections
were the result of a combination of factors. Some were external to the party
and some internal.
We were part of
a coalition of minor parties called the Alliance from 1993 prior to the 2002
election and had two MP's who, unfortunately, were very ineffective in
propagating SC monetary reform policies. That Alliance split apart in 2002
and we supported the ousted leader of the Alliance at the 2002 election. In
restrospect I believe we should have gone out on our own then. We decided to
revert to the independant Democrat party in 2003, and then had to rebuild
our membership and reorganise which we had allowed to lapse during our
Alliance days. The 2005 election took place while we are still rebuilding
our power base and reminding the electorate that a monetary reform party
still exists on NZ. These were the internal problems. Externally, we along
with every other minor party in NZ, have had to fight the TV news media
for air time and news paper coverage. The former is effectively controlled
by the two major parties, who have bagged lion's share of public
electioneering monies by virtue of their representation in Parliament. The
latter are controlled by international finance who have a vested interest in
trying to restore the old corrupt two party system responsible for the
disasterous indeptedness of our country.
Alternative policies to
those of the two major parties were deliberately ignored by the news media.
We are back to the situation we faced in the mid 1970's when a big
split nearly destroyed the party, but there are ways we can correct the
problems before the next election. There is a fertile ground for our
policies particularly if we attack the banking system here which is almost
totally foreigned owned. It was one of the conditions for accepting IMF
loans together with cutting of "welfare spending" (This included reducing
old age pensions and unemployment benefits).
Incidently in
case the plug is totally pulled on this forum my personal e-mail is wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz ifyou ever wish
to contact me personally.
Have a good New
Year Martin
Bill
McGunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 12:20
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together
Bill -
Thanks for all the background.
I ordered a copy of Michel Chossudovsky's
"Globalization of Poverty", and his comments on the work of the IMF, WTO
and World Bank make them look more like a criminal conspiracy to take over
the world by putting countries through the "race to the bottom" in the
name of "free enterprise" than any sort of organizations devoted to the
public good.
Makes me sad to see that New Zealand (which
used to get worried if unemployment went over 1%) has now joined the ranks
of the indebted "have nots". It seems as if the Democratic-Social Credit
party bombed badly in the past election, presumably because the electorate
either didn't understand or didn't want monetary reform. Any comments or
explanations of this?
All the best for 2006 -
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006
3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting
it all together
Hi Martin
Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those references. John
Rawson says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", so I
will be able to access that volume. John and I have been friends and
fellow workers in the Socred Movement in NZ for over 20 years. I joined
the movement in 1980 after retiring from the Army. I was unable to do so
prior to this because serving Army Officers are forbidden by law to be
members of a political organisation in NZ. John and I began working
together in 1984 when I moved to Northland NZ. I appreciate all the
comments made by members of the forum on monetary reform matters.
Incidently I have a brother in Singapore who, although he has no
connection to the Socerd movement, has moved into the monetary reform
camp. He compared the way Singapore and Malaysia handled the "Monetary
Crisis" of the late 1980's to that of countries that begged funding from
the IMF and World Bank. Those who borrowed from the IMF are still in
crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia are flourishing. this contrasts to
Indonesia where a country rich in natural resources cannot provide for
its people because of crippling debt requirements. When he retires he
intends to broadcast his findings in an attempt to educate people to the
scam of international banking.
Bill Mc
Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006
7:27 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual Wealth
and Debt", that was reprinted by Omni Publications in California quite
some time ago - I'm not sure that they are still in business. I could
perhaps ask Wally Klinck to scan it for me and send you a copy, though
that's a bit of a tall order..
I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and
there are several references to Soddy and his writings there. I think
you might follow that route up and get what you are looking for. Good
Luck!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006
8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
Hi Martin
Where can I obtain copies of the work of Professor Soddy? The paper
you created in 1988 was of great interest to me, and followed much
of the thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on the monetary
reform matters.
I
certainly agree that the monetary concepts that govern so called
"modern economics" definitely do not cope with the ever increasing debt problem, and its
stiffling effect on human development. Effectively we have a
monetary system developed in the 15th century geared to the selfish
needs of Italian single city states trying to cope with a global
economy that requires global equity of opportunity to access
finance. The situation is unstable, hence we have want and
starvation in a world of plenty.
Bill Mc
Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 02,
2006 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more
for his discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another way
of looking at A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas holus bolus.
There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and
Douglas's price discount is the neatest way of balancing
production with demand, without demanding unnecessary work from
anyone, that I know of - a definitely better
alternative.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December
31, 2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Putting it all together
That's a very interesting paper,
Martin, as are all your pieces. Thanks. I
don't think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of others in
comparison to those of Douglas.
In Soddy I see some similarities with
Douglas, but different terminology and concepts. And
objective. Soddy seems to be more in favour of a 'stable price
level' than a constantly 'falling'
one. As Douglas envisioned through an
application of credit enabling all the benefits of
continually advancing technology to be
accessed 'financially' by consumers in the provision of
desired product, As well as provision for increased
leisure .
Soddy seems to prefer 'government'
creating credit for spending on infrastructure rather than new
debt-free 'consumer' credits to individuals. Is this a
large part of the reason why many find
'government' infrastructure spending in a slump so
attractive? To try to keep up the price level?
I guess it's difficult for many to
initially envision how 'consumer' goods could be sold for
less than financial cost on an ongoing basis without businesses
being ruined, Simply through the
employment of a different technique of
credit. But I think true 'consumer' demand
made ''effective demand'' would then create renewed
economic activity far more effectively than 'infrastructure
spending' pump priming ever will.
I've nothing against 'needed'
infrastructure being built, but not as 'make work' projects to
provide an unnecessary 'moral' reason for paying people an
'income'. As well as a means of
keeping them 'under control'.
Soddy sounds like a bit of a
'puritan' to me in that regard~ he seems concerned to
keep everyone 'working'. The goal of a triumph
of the individual's 'will-to-freedom' over the
'will-to-power' externally imposed economically on
him, something so prevalent in Douglas,
seems to be absent with Soddy.
I get the impression from what
you've written and quoted he thinks the 'government' knows
best. Personally, I think once we get Douglas
completely figured out, Soddy will best remain remembered
for discovering isotopes.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December
29, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Re:
[socialcredit] Putting it all together
I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the
late Professor Soddy for the
Eastern Economics
Association. I think Soddy's description of the "J curve"
phenomenon essentially describes the problem we have to
tackle.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99
St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
-----
Original Message -----
From: "Joe Thomson"
<thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Thursday, December
29, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all
together
>I agree with a great deal of what
Martin has written identifying the
> problems, but I do
not fully concur with some of the solutions. This
may
> well be due to a lack of knowledge on my part, or
that I'm reading into
> what
> Martin's proposing
something that isn't intended by him. But there are
> some
> concerns I have with some of what's
proposed nevertheless. I'll come back
> to them
later, but for the moment I'd like to comment on just
this.
>
> (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this
initial expression of the theorem omitted
> was the fact
that
>> certain industries distribute wages to their
workers, while not putting
>> goods on the market for
immediate sale to consumers. These are the
>
factories
>> that make the tools that workers will
later use to turn out actual
> products.
>>
While this new capital formation is taking place, its
distribution of
> funds
>> to consumers in
wages and dividends, particularly when financed by
newly
>> created bank credit, serves as a form of
National Dividend that makes it
>> possible for the
consuming public to buy all that is on the market for
>
sale,
>> without producers being forced to sell below
cost.
>
> (Joe replies:-) There is a quote
in one of the early Douglas books that
> remarks "
....just as the construction of a new railway bridge raises
the
> price of bacon in a village shop." While
there is no doubt that 'newly
> created bank credit' to
finance new works serves as you say, however it is
>
also, I think, true what Douglas says.
>
> He
notes that the upper limit of price is governed roughly by the
> 'quantity
> theory of money'. The lower by
financial 'cost'. If there's 'more money
> about'
the merchant is going to try and get 'more' of it.
He has to, if
> he's to stay in business. Simply
because the fact there IS 'more money
> about' has
diluted the purchasing power of ALL money
about.
>
> He is selling in the hopes of making a
profit. The same as a bank lends at
> interest in hopes
of the same. But money is variable in what it will
> 'buy',
> and he has to continually
replace and, if selling more, increase, his
>
stock
> in trade. (Just as a bank has to increase
its 'stock', its 'deposits' or
> whatever else we've
been foolish enough to allow it to use as its
>
reserves,
> if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a
'cost' to doing this ~ banks 'pay'
> interest as well as
receive it. And 'more' interest when they want more
>
deposits.)
>
> If the stock the merchant buys has
risen in price, what he might have
> taken
> for
himself in profit is diminished. It goes back to fund
the new stock,
> or
> he has to take out a larger
overdraft to do so. His sales may be rising,
> and
so in terms of dollars may be his profit. But the RATE
of profit in
> ratio to that increase in sales
taken over time is in continuing
>
decline.
> 'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the
business sense, are exactly the
> same. One of the
components of 'interest', as we've seen, is allowance
>
for
> 'inflation'. One of the components of
'profit' would likely then have to
> be
> the
same. It is why I believe Douglas noted that "large
works on
> completion
> are paid for by an
expansion of credit." The words "on completion"
imply
> there must be a FURTHER expansion of credit
beyond that which took place
> to
> initiate the
construction of those 'large works'. The 'inflation'
is
> continuous, and the community pays for its progress
twice. Unless there
> is
> an
implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon we can
finally begin
> to
> enjoy as consumers the
fruits of progress at the proper decline in overall
>
retail prices that capital appreciation should have
brought about.
>
>
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Re: [socialcredit]
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