| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Re: Swanwick Principles | | Date: | Monday, December 13, 2004 07:08:22 (+0000) | | From: | Timothy Carpenter <timbeau_hk @........uk>
|
| In reply to: | Message 348 (written by Joe Thomson) |
Hi Joe,
Good to see some people also notice the non-productive 'friction' or 'churn'
in society. It is an indirect way to collect more taxes by putting lots of
people in the supply chain (each after-tax expenditure goes to other people
who are in turn taxed and spend after-tax on more people who are taxed).
As to 'workfare' I am not aware that the UK's 'sure-start' is such a thing.
If it is I agree with you.
Joe, as to rebates...how else is it then implemented? If you rebate the cost
of something then it costs less and people can then buy more, right? If it
costs less which goods are going to be rebated? Are you seriously suggesting
that country A rebates goods produced from country B? It does not matter if
you rebate the purchaser, reduce the sales tax or subsidise the producer,
whatever happens the net "ticket" price goes down and the company gets the
sale, right? Help me out if I this rebate operates in a different way, Joe.
As to your 300lb oaf, indeed we all have such examples, but it is important
to know that they are, alas, exceptions that prove the rule and an entire
economic model cannot rest upon an idealistic hope. The lazy rich-kids (now
middle class too) are a different manifestation of the same affliction.
Again, it is not about poor staying poor (for if this were the case we would
have no middle class) but about nurturing the lack of ambition and drive.
Tim
On 11/12/04 5:23 pm, "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Tim,
>
> Thanks for your response below, Tim, and also for elaborating some of the
> points you're concerned about here, and in your reply to Wally. I'll
> interject some further comments below:-
>>
> {Tim:-}> Indeed, you hit a nail - but interestingly the response I got also
> indicates
>> that a "Guaranteed National Income" is implied by some who support A+B!
> ----------------------------------------------------------(Joe:-) I don't
> doubt that there are some 'Social Crediters' who do believe in having a
> substantial "Guaranteed" Annual (or National) income scheme. Though, in my
> opinion, the only thing that would really 'guarantee' would be the truth of
> a very old saying. The one that states "The only things 'guaranteed' in
> life are death AND TAXES!" As I've seen such schemes usually proposed they
> are highly 'socialistic' in nature. And would quite possibly have some of
> the deleterious effects on 'initiative', you allude to. Though probably to
> the 'initiative' of those 'contributing', rather than the recipients!
>
> They seem to involve the 'Robin(g) Hood' idea of removing 'money' from the
> 'Rich' and distributing it, (less 'costs incurred', of course), to the
> 'Poor'. But are the Poor really poor because the 'Rich' are rich? Or
> because of the way the current financial system 'works'?
>
> We know, or should, that there are no real problems with 'production' in
> regards to our ability to actually 'produce' anything our little hearts
> desire. Not in the 'developed' world of today. (There may well be, though,
> if we keep on our present course of 'outsourcing'~ we may lose the
> 'knowledge' of 'how' to do things, as well as the plants that actually did
> them!) We also know that a considerable portion of our population, around
> 7% in Canada, (officially), is permanently 'unemployed'. A much larger
> percentage is 'underemployed', in that they are not working at jobs which
> provide what's considered to be a 'full' workweek.
>
> An even greater percentage are engaged in employment which can only be
> described as 'redundant'. And often a very costly, and largely unnecessary
> redundancy. e.g. Does a small town really need an 'Investment Advisor's'
> office on virtually every downtown corner? Or 300 of its citizens trying to
> 'earn' their daily bread peddling real estate? Or the most recent downtown
> private plethora, now kitty-cornered to the Realtor and Investment Advisor
> offices, (in BC, anyways), the JOB Training Centre?
>
> And do we really 'need' to keep building 'new and improved' larger plants,
> that often are no such thing, when the existing plants they'll replace have
> never been able to run at anywhere near full capacity and are far from 'worn
> out'?
>
> There is, in other words, already an underutilized capacity for 'production'
> far, far, in excess of our current requirements.. And would continue to be,
> even if we had everyone now 'unemployed', or 'underemployed', all working.
> And eliminated, if we could, the 'redundant'. For there would be still,
> definitely, a problem in 'distribution' of that production. 'A+B'
> identifies the reasons for that problem. The 'Swanwick proposals' hold the
> solution. It cannot be successfully done otherwise, in my opinion, or we
> would have long-ago done it.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
> (Tim:-) > Indeed, I came across A+B when I was investigating such an income
> as a
>> possible alternative to social security which can be degrading, complex
> and
>> open to abuse. It makes a lot of sense initially but then in the UK we see
>> rules and funding applied with idealism only resulting in the wrong result
>> e.g. People now claim 'disability' instead of unemployment as it 'pays
>> better'! On the flip side things like 'sure start' aim to help people up
> the
>> ladder out of the poverty cycle and this is where money appears to do good
>> and boosts people's dignity because they are earning their way with honest
>> effort.
> ----------------------------------------------------------(Joe:-) I'm
> afraid I disagree with the whole concept of what we call in this country
> "Workfare", Tim. It is 'patronising', and those on it know it. It's like a
> school taking a kid who doesn't like sports and 'forcing' him on a sports
> team, with the idea that it will build 'sportsmanship' in him. What it
> really builds is 'resentment'. (I know, I was such a kid!) He doesn't want
> to be there, (and I'm talking about 'extra-curricular activities' now, not a
> mandatory Physical Education course that's part of the regular school day),
> and he's going to make minimal effort towards the game. This detracts from
> the enjoyment of those who DO want to be there, and their abilities to
> excell at an activity they enjoy. And they resent having someone 'forced'
> on them who they would never otherwise willingly pick for a team. One that
> this 'someone' wouldn't want to be on anyways. What is really accomplished
> in terms of 'human satisfaction'? Nothing. And is it not 'human
> satisfaction' that we should be 'measuring' when we associate in all the
> many ways we do?
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
> (Tim:-) > If it is a consumer discount it is interesting as I would think
> that a form
>> of sales tax refund could be arranged when people pay electronically. This
>> has the benefit that it moves people away from potentially untaxable cash.
> I
>> will raise this thought with another who I believe has thought a lot about
>> automatic price and inflation control.
>>
>> It could also be used as a form of tax relief for the domiciled companies
> so
>> they can remain competitive in the world markets (why spend dividend to
>> encourage wealth to leave the country?) but then we get 'free trade'
>> opposition from such 'subsidy', right? A combination could be a partial
>> electronic sales tax refund for local companies only.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> (Joe:-)> I'm afraid you've missed the point, Tim. Which is easy to do when
> discussing 'social credit'. The 'Consumer Discount' is not to provide
> 'companies' with a 'subsidy', but is more in the nature of a 'rebate' on
> prices to consumers. To bridge the gap between deficient 'consumer incomes'
> in relation to 'consuumer prices' at point of retail that's prevalent in
> each accounting cycle.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> (Tim:-) > As to 'forcing people to work' I agree with your position. The
> real issue is
>> into the future by not encouraging such people to have children whom they
> in
>> general teach the same lifestyle - the cruellest child poverty of all -
>> poverty of ambition! (If anyone says a person who is willingly idle can
>> teach ambition and drive in their children then they have fooled
> themselves
>> first and now attempt to fool others).
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> (Joe:-) Tim, one of my long-time customers was a 300 pound oaf who never did
> a day's labour towards 'earning' an income all the time I knew him, (about
> 20 years, he finally had a coronary and croaked a few years ago). He was on
> 'social assistance' from the time he arrived in our area, until his death.
> He had six kids, a wife to whom he was obviously happily wed, and bought
> many a board from me to keep up his residence and outbuildings. Every one
> of his kids were 'ambitious', found jobs, and have worked steadily since
> they left school. One boy is probably well on his way to being a
> millionaire, if he's not already there. The 'sins of the father' are NOT
> always visited upon his offspring. His is not the only instance I've seen of
> this happening. And I've seen the process in reverse, too, where the
> 'super-ambitious' bred the hopelessly 'lazy'.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------- (Tim:-) Any
> further down such a road then it
>> becomes social engineering with sinister overtones (e.g. Do you reward
>> graduate parents more, as in Singapore). Right now, a universal payment IS
>> social engineering in that it engineers the growth of an underclass - how
>> cruel! THAT is elitism...throwing bread to keep those below instead of
>> offering out a hand to pull them up
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> (Joe:-) There is a considerable difference between OFFERING out a hand to
> help someone up and grabbing them and yanking them up when they may just as
> well be satisfied with where they are
>
> Best wishes,
> Joe
>
>
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