| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together | | Date: | Friday, January 13, 2006 22:40:14 (+1300) | | From: | Peter Haines <cymric @.......nz>
|
Thanks Bill,
In the local case, as I recall a German student who had lived in NZ several
years, was studying at Waikato and he was doing research by interviewing
people on a subject not related to the holocaust, while he was a doubting
Thomas re the Shoa details and I interpreted it that the people ( mainly
Germans who immigtated to NZ after the war I believe) who he was
interviewing were capable of answering questions about World War 2 and I
suspected ( Zionist?) Prof Dov Bing who now heads the local NZ branch of
the Royal Institute of International Affairs (the sister of the Council On
Foreign Relations in the US) may have guessed that this guy could have
ulterior motives.
It also came out that he had passed a paper that included comments that
indicated a lack of complete subjection to a certain claim. So he was a
neo-Nazi, what else. Only two on the staff, but they threatened to
discredit the University internationally if it didnt do the ten push-ups in
penance and revamp their tutoring practise to demands. The occasion was to
be at either Oxford or Cambridge at a function some members were soon to
attend. The Waikato Uni spokesperson's reply was that they could tell them
what they liked as long as it was the truth. I think that was the last of
it in the media then.
I felt sorry for all the students in previous years as the impact intended
would have meant their credentials were good for toilet paper.
I agree with your sentiment. How can anyone deny the suffering of others of
any number of millions, those Kiwis who never came back gave for all.
This is another case of select racism. If anyone else did it it would be
wrong.
The Second World War is over exposed in regards several things except
perhaps the most important dimension which is the political and social
manipulation that created the environment for such abuses of power and the
dehumanising of peoples who couldnt conform or simply were of a philosophy
of life that had to become extinct- which Christians and non-Talmud Jews may
soon face. I am talking about coersion of various kinds ( PC is one, media
monopoly/manipulation another) intimidation and terror to control and change
peoples minds and actions which developed through the thirties ( in the wake
of free-market instability from banking policy) and I see the same happening
now including hate crime laws and the like and making criminals out of
disidents ( as the Nazi and Soviets did) when anyone who is widely read
knows the true story of the Second World War has yet to be told. September
11 wasnt the beginning of 'Holywood' in reallife theatre.
Henry Ford said history was bunk and Napoleon said it was a set of agreed
lies.
Books on the WW11 were on equal footing with rock 'n roll with me when I was
a teenager. Eventually one developes a nose more 'articulate' than the
tongue regards the nature of the beast.
Every Anzac day the media mindlessly repeat the phrase 'lest we forget' but
they are never able to say what it is we need to remember. There is an
embargo on the missing dimension- the psychological war.
This is what makes Douglas unique- all policy derives from philosophy- (by
their fruit ye shall know them.)
Those who control the past control the future.
Peter H
----- Original Message -----
From: "W. McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> Hi Peter
> The case that caused the problem was the Master's degree issued
> by Canterbury University. The lecturer involved was actually lecturing on
> Military History at Massey University in Palmerston North. The Military
> History Dept is a relatively new one brought into being by the transfer of
> officer training to Linton Camp (just outside Palmerston North) from the
> previous main training camp at Waiouru in the central North Island.
> Officer
> training now requires certain university papers at Batchelor and Masters
> level to be completed successfully as a requirement for promotion. The
> university provides that opportunity. I knew the lecturer personally and
> was
> very annoyed to say the least that the heirarchy at Massey actually took
> notice of the press vilification of the man in question. Ultimately the
> odium received by the senior management at Massey in Palmerston North led
> to
> five resignations among that fraternity as well as a big drop in the
> numbers
> of students opting to take courses at the Palmerston North Campus. Albany
> campus near Auckland (where I do my work) gained by this and remained
> unaffected by the matter. Indeed several senior staff members including
> one
> of my own professors wrote privately to the senior staff at Palmerston
> North
> protesting at his treatment. I had first hand knowledge of the matter
> because one of my fellow graduates from my year helped him to weather the
> storm, and eventually he was able to obtain a post overseas.I think it was
> in Britain.
> It was a very unsavoury episode that did a great deal of harm to the
> academic reputation of New Zealand universities. It also highlighted the
> unfortunate tendency of certain elements in our society to try to pervert
> the direction in which our studies should be directed.
> My big argument about the "Holocaust" is simple. There is a big song
> and dance about the estimated 6 million Jews being killed. Very little is
> said about other WWII casualties : the estimated 25 million Russians who
> died or the 50 Million Chinese or the 4-5 million allied prisoners in
> Japanese hands, or the 100 million people who have died as a result of the
> conflicts perpetrated in the Cold War. The Rape of Nanking is never
> mentioned when an estimated 300000 chinese were slaughtered in three days
> by
> Japanese troops when that city was captured during the Chinese/Japanese
> War
> from 1937-45. Young Japanese officers held beheading competitions to
> demonstrate their ability with their Samuri swords. The Jews weren't the
> only people to be subjected to genocide during WWII. It all seems very
> distorted to me. Put in perspective with these facts the "Holocaust" is
> simply another ghastly example of man's inhumanity to man conducted during
> that incredible true Holocaust know as World War Two. I witnessed some of
> that war and the memories are etched on my mind for ever.
> Bill McGunnigle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Haines" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 7:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>
>
>> Howdy Bill,
>> That is good news. Waikato University had its own case as well and
> another
>> at Canterbury was mentioned but I never heard anything about Massey.
>> Peter H
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "W. McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 11:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>>
>>
>> > Hi Ken
>> > My Masters is just a straight History one, but does include a
>> > considerable amount of NZ History. My research has been confined to NZ
>> > railways. A topic that is my hobby, and about which I have extensive
>> > knowledge. My intention after completing this Masters is to do either a
>> > PhD
>> > or an M Phil (by thesis) on the effects of the new right policies on
>> > industry particularly the period in NZ history called the "Rogernomics
>> > Era"
>> > approx 1985-1999.
>> > Ajudication is a complex affair at Massey University NZ, and
> includes
>> > your own supervisor and to seperate indepedent professor-grade
>> > assessors
>> > from different disciplines. They check your structure, argument, and
>> > verify
>> > your source material. Care is taken to ensure that political bias is
>> > evened
>> > out. I have found their critiques to be fair, even handed, and very
>> > professional. They are looking for valid argument and logical siupport
> to
>> > that argument in our theses. There has been a big row recently among
>> > the
>> > senior heirarchy of our universities about a Masters thesis in 1990 by
>> > a
>> > lecturer at Massey for his Masters degree. It questioned aspects of the
>> > "Holocaust", and was not well received by certain parts of the
>> > establishment
>> > in 2002, when it was published in a popular newspaper. That paper
> demanded
>> > the lecturer be stripped of his degree for his conclusions. The
>> > unpleasantness led to his resignation, but he had been given a good
>> > honours
>> > grade for the work. Basically he had "followed the rules" with respect
> to
>> > the work and deserved recognition. He was not deprived of his degree. A
>> > few
>> > cowards wanted to give way to the news media, but the odium heaped upon
>> > those individuals by the rest of the academic world here has quashed
>> > any
>> > further attempts at this type of media pressure.
>> > Bill McGunnigle
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
>> > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> > Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:28 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>> >
>> >
>> >> In-Reply-To: <001d01c614d9$6825bc00$5d6437d2@computer>
>> >> Hi Bill.
>> >>
>> >> "Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat its failures"
> :-)))
>> >>
>> >> For nearly Thirty years I have been fascinated by the NZ political
> scene.
>> >> Fed to me largely through Colin Whitmill. So please someone, keep the
>> >> information flowing :-)
>> >>
>> >> I remember well the excitement here when SoCred gained 22% of the
>> >> vote.
>> >> Though at the time you were the only other developed nation with that
> God
>> >> awful first past the post electoral system. So it earned you only Two
>> >> seats in Parliament :-((
>> >>
>> >> We knew, and still know the feeling :-(
>> >>
>> >> Ken.
>> >>
>> >> By the way Bill, is the subject of your Masters anything to do with MR
> ?
>> >>
>> >> If so, how did you manage to find someone who would adjudicate ?
>> >>
>> >> Ken.
>> >>
>> >> -------- Original Message --------
>> >>
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>> >> Message-ID: <001d01c614d9$6825bc00$5d6437d2@computer>
>> >> From: "W. McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
>> >> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> >> References: <000501c60bee$9fe0a720$de5b22cf@martinh4>
>> >> <000e01c60c95$d2e7b9e0$bad44246@cc.shawcable.net>
>> >> <00bf01c60cef$b970c3d0$984722cf@martinh4>
>> >> <002801c60e94$9f60aea0$bad44246@cc.shawcable.net>
>> >> <00ab01c60f37$db424890$e423e5cf@martinh4>
>> >> <004801c61012$818a0640$b86437d2@computer>
>> >> <005e01c61093$de655e60$9c4722cf@martinh4>
>> >> <004c01c61247$7534a440$cb6637d2@computer>
>> >> <001801c6124e$a459dea0$807ba8c0@martinhmicron>
>> >> <001201c6132a$e7814240$e06437d2@computer>
>> >> <004101c613df$50030dd0$6600a8c0@HAINESCOMPUTER>
>> >> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 17:58:59 +1300
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>> >> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
>> >> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
>> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>> >> X-Envelope-To: kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk
>> >> X-UIDL: _zBG.CzkwDB.mta02.mx
>> >>
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>> >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> >>
>> >> Hi Peter
>> >> Basically I agree with your comments. We, in Northland, =
>> >> were aware of those very problems, and made out opinion known. We were
> =
>> >> over-ruled by others in the party. With respect to our campaign I
>> >> don't
> =
>> >> share your pessimism with respect to its being a total failure. Our
> Name
>> >> =
>> >> is now back on the ballot paper and people are aware we have returned.
> =
>> >> This gives us a starting point to canvass old supporters and woo them
>> >> =
>> >> back into the fold. We did precisely what you suggested in Northland =
>> >> with respect to electoral meetings, and it proved revealing. Certainly
> =
>> >> the majority of candidates had difficulty handling the financial =
>> >> questions that we presented to them. That vindicates your expressed =
>> >> views. Keep in contact Peter I appreciate your comments
>> >> Bill McGunnigle
>> >>
>> >> Incidently I am an historian and I am in the process of
>> >> completing
> =
>> >> a Masterate in History hence the historical bent in some of my =
>> >> discources.
>> >> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> >> From: Peter Haines=20
>> >> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 12:08 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Howdy Bill,
>> >>
>> >> I agree with your overview which was largely history. The one =
>> >> sentence about this past election - that you were still rebuilding the
> =
>> >> power-base and reminding NZ there was still a m/reform party - was a =
>> >> very expensive exercise that probably undermined both. There is a =
>> >> presumption that the electorate knows what monetary reform is.
>> >> From the scattered fragments I received I percieved that the party
> has
>> >> =
>> >> a financial blowout, resulting in substantial dissension which is =
>> >> counterproductive for any powerbase developent and showed the
> electorate
>> >> =
>> >> that the party cant attract any interest in todays world.
>> >> In short they would have been better off to just keep on building =
>> >> membership, gone in twos and threes to National and Labour meetings
>> >> and
> =
>> >> challenged them on debt issues in public and the like to put these
> issue
>> >> =
>> >> in the public mind.
>> >> The gauntlet small parties have to run as you pointed out are old =
>> >> parts of the political landscape. So its foot soldiers that are
> needed,
>> >> =
>> >> for letterbox drops, door knocking and letters to the editor. In my =
>> >> electorate I saw two billboards and nothing else. It's not a
> commercial
>> >> =
>> >> art competition.
>> >> I would say that the number of people who appreciate the need of =
>> >> monetary reform, mostly past supporters number a lot more than those
> who
>> >> =
>> >> voted for them.
>> >> If this was the basis of the election campaign then it would have
> been
>> >> =
>> >> cheaper to call on past members in a variety of electorates and =
>> >> interview them and make an accessment of potential support at no cost.
> =
>> >> After all the wasted money they still dont know what these people
>> >> think
> =
>> >> today. =20
>> >> The arguing that goes on within the party shows it is a mixed bag of
> =
>> >> people who have a simple and clear idea of what they are against but =
>> >> fragented regards a clear and comprehensive idea of what they are FOR
>> >> =
>> >> and how to go about it.
>> >> The decisions regarding the election appear to be based more on =
>> >> immature and psychological internal needs not cold reality of the
>> >> world
> =
>> >> outside. One of the biggest hurdles is the desire in the majority of
>> >> =
>> >> the rank and file membership- we want a messiah ( like Betheem became)
> =
>> >> because then it all happens so easily and no one has to get out and =
>> >> footslog or fundraise etc as much, just pay their sub, attend a few =
>> >> meetings, shake the Mans hand and sit back and wait for the votes to =
>> >> roll in.
>> >> There have been a lot of frustrated and very talented people go =
>> >> through the SC party over the decades and they rarely go back.
>> >> There were huge structural and functional faults in the party when I
> =
>> >> was involved, the late 80s to mid 90s, which can be the measure of =
>> >> their results.
>> >> There was also another party that just started out in the last =
>> >> election, the leader of which has an understanding of SC but the party
> =
>> >> was focused more towards constitutional issues, appreciating that one
>> >> =
>> >> needs to build on good foundations not just on anything, consistent
> with
>> >> =
>> >> Douglas. It was called Direct Democracy. I havent seen their
>> >> election
> =
>> >> results and I expect they would not have done any better. The average
> =
>> >> NZer who watches the 6 pm news on tellie and looks through the
> headlines
>> >> =
>> >> of a newspaper several times a week and reads some letters to the
> editor
>> >> =
>> >> probably feels they know it all so any party that gets out on the
> fringe
>> >> =
>> >> and wants to prove chalk isnt cheese is going to find it hard going.
>> >> However there seems to be an absense of 'lessons learned in the
>> >> past'
> =
>> >> in the party and so they seem to be moving around in a circle not
> moving
>> >> =
>> >> on.
>> >> Social Crediters should be the most dynamic organised people in the
>> >> =
>> >> world. The keys, I believe, are right under our noses but we are
>> >> only
> =
>> >> interested in money in the main and so we remain divided servants. =
>> >> Rather ironic really.
>> >> Thanks for your very interesting post re the international banks.
>> >> Peter H =20
>> >> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> >> From: W. McGunnigle=20
>> >> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:37 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi Martin
>> >> The poor showing of the Democrats for Social Credit
>> >> in
> =
>> >> the last NZ elections were the result of a combination of factors.
>> >> Some
> =
>> >> were external to the party and some internal.
>> >> We were part of a coalition of minor parties called the =
>> >> Alliance from 1993 prior to the 2002 election and had two MP's who, =
>> >> unfortunately, were very ineffective in propagating SC monetary reform
> =
>> >> policies. That Alliance split apart in 2002 and we supported the
>> >> ousted
> =
>> >> leader of the Alliance at the 2002 election. In restrospect I believe
> we
>> >> =
>> >> should have gone out on our own then. We decided to revert to the =
>> >> independant Democrat party in 2003, and then had to rebuild our =
>> >> membership and reorganise which we had allowed to lapse during our =
>> >> Alliance days. The 2005 election took place while we are still =
>> >> rebuilding our power base and reminding the electorate that a monetary
> =
>> >> reform party still exists on NZ. These were the internal problems. =
>> >> Externally, we along with every other minor party in NZ, have had to =
>> >> fight the TV news media for air time and news paper coverage. The
> former
>> >> =
>> >> is effectively controlled by the two major parties, who have bagged =
>> >> lion's share of public electioneering monies by virtue of their =
>> >> representation in Parliament. The latter are controlled by
> international
>> >> =
>> >> finance who have a vested interest in trying to restore the old
>> >> corrupt
> =
>> >> two party system responsible for the disasterous indeptedness of our =
>> >> country.
>> >> Alternative policies to those of the two major parties were =
>> >> deliberately ignored by the news media. We are back to the situation
>> >> we
> =
>> >> faced in the mid 1970's when a big split nearly destroyed the party,
> but
>> >> =
>> >> there are ways we can correct the problems before the next election. =
>> >> There is a fertile ground for our policies particularly if we attack
> the
>> >> =
>> >> banking system here which is almost totally foreigned owned. It was
>> >> one
> =
>> >> of the conditions for accepting IMF loans together with cutting of =
>> >> "welfare spending" (This included reducing old age pensions and =
>> >> unemployment benefits). =20
>> >> Incidently in case the plug is totally pulled on this forum
> my
>> >> =
>> >> personal e-mail is wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz ifyou ever wish to contact me
>> >> =
>> >> personally.
>> >> Have a good New Year Martin
>> >> Bill McGunnigle
>> >> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> >> From: Martin Hattersley=20
>> >> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 12:20 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Bill -
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for all the background.
>> >>
>> >> I ordered a copy of Michel Chossudovsky's "Globalization of =
>> >> Poverty", and his comments on the work of the IMF, WTO and World Bank
>> >> =
>> >> make them look more like a criminal conspiracy to take over the world
> by
>> >> =
>> >> putting countries through the "race to the bottom" in the name of
>> >> "free
> =
>> >> enterprise" than any sort of organizations devoted to the public good.
>> >>
>> >> Makes me sad to see that New Zealand (which used to get worried
> if
>> >> =
>> >> unemployment went over 1%) has now joined the ranks of the indebted =
>> >> "have nots". It seems as if the Democratic-Social Credit party bombed
>> >> =
>> >> badly in the past election, presumably because the electorate either =
>> >> didn't understand or didn't want monetary reform. Any comments or =
>> >> explanations of this?
>> >>
>> >> All the best for 2006 -
>> >>
>> >> Martin Hattersley
>> >> 1970-10123-99 St. Edmonton AB Canada
>> >> Phone (780)423-2081; Fax (780)425-5247
>> >> e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca;
>> >> hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> >> From: W. McGunnigle=20
>> >> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:29 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi Martin=20
>> >> Thanks for the help. Will follow through with =
>> >> those references. John Rawson says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual =
>> >> Wealth and Debt", so I will be able to access that volume. John and I
>> >> =
>> >> have been friends and fellow workers in the Socred Movement in NZ for
>> >> =
>> >> over 20 years. I joined the movement in 1980 after retiring from the =
>> >> Army. I was unable to do so prior to this because serving Army
>> >> Officers
> =
>> >> are forbidden by law to be members of a political organisation in NZ.
>> >> =
>> >> John and I began working together in 1984 when I moved to Northland
>> >> NZ.
> =
>> >> I appreciate all the comments made by members of the forum on monetary
> =
>> >> reform matters. Incidently I have a brother in Singapore who, although
> =
>> >> he has no connection to the Socerd movement, has moved into the
> monetary
>> >> =
>> >> reform camp. He compared the way Singapore and Malaysia handled the =
>> >> "Monetary Crisis" of the late 1980's to that of countries that begged
>> >> =
>> >> funding from the IMF and World Bank. Those who borrowed from the IMF
> are
>> >> =
>> >> still in crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia are flourishing. this =
>> >> contrasts to Indonesia where a country rich in natural resources
>> >> cannot
> =
>> >> provide for its people because of crippling debt requirements. When he
> =
>> >> retires he intends to broadcast his findings in an attempt to educate
>> >> =
>> >> people to the scam of international banking.
>> >> Bill Mc Gunnigle
>> >> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> >> From: Martin Hattersley=20
>> >> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:27 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and
> Debt",
>> >> =
>> >> that was reprinted by Omni Publications in California quite some time
>> >> =
>> >> ago - I'm not sure that they are still in business. I could perhaps
>> >> ask
> =
>> >> Wally Klinck to scan it for me and send you a copy, though that's a
>> >> bit
> =
>> >> of a tall order..
>> >>
>> >> I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and there are =
>> >> several references to Soddy and his writings there. I think you might
>> >> =
>> >> follow that route up and get what you are looking for. Good Luck!
>> >>
>> >> Martin Hattersley
>> >> 1970-10123-99 St.,=20
>> >> EDMONTON AB CANADA
>> >> Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
>> >> e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> >> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> >> From: W. McGunnigle=20
>> >> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:05 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi Martin
>> >> Where can I obtain copies of the work of =
>> >> Professor Soddy? The paper you created in 1988 was of great interest
>> >> to
> =
>> >> me, and followed much of the thinking pattern that colours my thoughts
> =
>> >> on the monetary reform matters.=20
>> >> I certainly agree that the monetary concepts that =
>> >> govern so called "modern economics" definitely do not cope with the
> ever
>> >> =
>> >> increasing debt problem, and its stiffling effect on human
>> >> development.
> =
>> >> Effectively we have a monetary system developed in the 15th century =
>> >> geared to the selfish needs of Italian single city states trying to
> cope
>> >> =
>> >> with a global economy that requires global equity of opportunity to =
>> >> access finance. The situation is unstable, hence we have want and =
>> >> starvation in a world of plenty.
>> >> Bill Mc Gunnigle
>> >> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> >> From: Martin Hattersley=20
>> >> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:44 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for his =
>> >> discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another way of looking
>> >> at
> =
>> >> A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas holus bolus.=20
>> >>
>> >> There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and
>> >> Douglas's
> =
>> >> price discount is the neatest way of balancing production with
>> >> demand,
> =
>> >> without demanding unnecessary work from anyone, that I know of - a =
>> >> definitely better alternative.
>> >>
>> >> Martin Hattersley
>> >> 1970-10123-99 St.,=20
>> >> EDMONTON AB CANADA
>> >> Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
>> >> e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> >> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> >> From: Joe Thomson=20
>> >> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 10:31 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's a very interesting paper, Martin, as are all
> your
>> >> =
>> >> pieces. Thanks. I don't think it hurts to explore some of the ideas
> of
>> >> =
>> >> others in comparison to those of Douglas. =20
>> >>
>> >> In Soddy I see some similarities with Douglas, but =
>> >> different terminology and concepts. And objective. Soddy seems to be
>> >> =
>> >> more in favour of a 'stable price level' than a constantly 'falling' =
>> >> one. As Douglas envisioned through an application of credit
> enabling
>> >> =
>> >> all the benefits of continually advancing technology to be accessed =
>> >> 'financially' by consumers in the provision of desired product, As
>> >> well
> =
>> >> as provision for increased leisure . =20
>> >>
>> >> Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating credit for
> =
>> >> spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer'
>> >> credits
> =
>> >> to individuals. Is this a large part of the reason why many find =
>> >> 'government' infrastructure spending in a slump so attractive? To
>> >> try
> =
>> >> to keep up the price level? =20
>> >>
>> >> I guess it's difficult for many to initially envision
> =
>> >> how 'consumer' goods could be sold for less than financial cost on an
>> >> =
>> >> ongoing basis without businesses being ruined, Simply through the =
>> >> employment of a different technique of credit. But I think true =
>> >> 'consumer' demand made ''effective demand'' would then create renewed
> =
>> >> economic activity far more effectively than 'infrastructure spending'
>> >> =
>> >> pump priming ever will.=20
>> >>
>> >> I've nothing against 'needed' infrastructure being =
>> >> built, but not as 'make work' projects to provide an unnecessary
> 'moral'
>> >> =
>> >> reason for paying people an 'income'. As well as a means of keeping
>> >> =
>> >> them 'under control'.=20
>> >>
>> >> Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to me in that
>> >> =
>> >> regard~ he seems concerned to keep everyone 'working'. The goal of a
> =
>> >> triumph of the individual's 'will-to-freedom' over the
>> >> 'will-to-power'
> =
>> >> externally imposed economically on him, something so prevalent in =
>> >> Douglas, seems to be absent with Soddy. =20
>> >>
>> >> I get the impression from what you've written and =
>> >> quoted he thinks the 'government' knows best. Personally, I think =
>> >> once we get Douglas completely figured out, Soddy will best remain =
>> >> remembered for discovering isotopes.
>> >>
>> >> Joe
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> >> From: Martin Hattersley=20
>> >> To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:02 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late
> =
>> >> Professor Soddy for the=20
>> >> Eastern Economics Association. I think Soddy's =
>> >> description of the "J curve"=20
>> >> phenomenon essentially describes the problem we have
> =
>> >> to tackle.
>> >>
>> >> Martin Hattersley
>> >> 1970-10123-99 St.,
>> >> EDMONTON AB CANADA
>> >> Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
>> >> e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> >> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> >> From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
>> >> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >I agree with a great deal of what Martin has
>> >> written
> =
>> >> identifying the
>> >> > problems, but I do not fully concur with some of
> the
>> >> =
>> >> solutions. This may
>> >> > well be due to a lack of knowledge on my part, or
>> >> =
>> >> that I'm reading into=20
>> >> > what
>> >> > Martin's proposing something that isn't intended
>> >> by
> =
>> >> him. But there are=20
>> >> > some
>> >> > concerns I have with some of what's proposed =
>> >> nevertheless. I'll come back
>> >> > to them later, but for the moment I'd like to =
>> >> comment on just this.
>> >> >
>> >> > (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this initial
>> >> expression
> =
>> >> of the theorem omitted
>> >> > was the fact that
>> >> >> certain industries distribute wages to their =
>> >> workers, while not putting
>> >> >> goods on the market for immediate sale to =
>> >> consumers. These are the
>> >> > factories
>> >> >> that make the tools that workers will later use
>> >> to
> =
>> >> turn out actual
>> >> > products.
>> >> >> While this new capital formation is taking place,
> =
>> >> its distribution of
>> >> > funds
>> >> >> to consumers in wages and dividends, particularly
> =
>> >> when financed by newly
>> >> >> created bank credit, serves as a form of National
> =
>> >> Dividend that makes it
>> >> >> possible for the consuming public to buy all that
> =
>> >> is on the market for
>> >> > sale,
>> >> >> without producers being forced to sell below
>> >> cost.
>> >> >
>> >> > (Joe replies:-) There is a quote in one of the =
>> >> early Douglas books that
>> >> > remarks " ....just as the construction of a new =
>> >> railway bridge raises the
>> >> > price of bacon in a village shop." While there is
> =
>> >> no doubt that 'newly
>> >> > created bank credit' to finance new works serves
>> >> as
> =
>> >> you say, however it is
>> >> > also, I think, true what Douglas says.
>> >> >
>> >> > He notes that the upper limit of price is governed
> =
>> >> roughly by the=20
>> >> > 'quantity
>> >> > theory of money'. The lower by financial 'cost'.
> If
>> >> =
>> >> there's 'more money
>> >> > about' the merchant is going to try and get 'more'
> =
>> >> of it. He has to, if
>> >> > he's to stay in business. Simply because the fact
> =
>> >> there IS 'more money
>> >> > about' has diluted the purchasing power of ALL
> money
>> >> =
>> >> about.
>> >> >
>> >> > He is selling in the hopes of making a profit. The
> =
>> >> same as a bank lends at
>> >> > interest in hopes of the same. But money is =
>> >> variable in what it will=20
>> >> > 'buy',
>> >> > and he has to continually replace and, if selling
> =
>> >> more, increase, his=20
>> >> > stock
>> >> > in trade. (Just as a bank has to increase its =
>> >> 'stock', its 'deposits' or
>> >> > whatever else we've been foolish enough to allow
>> >> it
> =
>> >> to use as its=20
>> >> > reserves,
>> >> > if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to =
>> >> doing this ~ banks 'pay'
>> >> > interest as well as receive it. And 'more'
>> >> interest
> =
>> >> when they want more
>> >> > deposits.)
>> >> >
>> >> > If the stock the merchant buys has risen in price,
> =
>> >> what he might have=20
>> >> > taken
>> >> > for himself in profit is diminished. It goes back
> =
>> >> to fund the new stock,=20
>> >> > or
>> >> > he has to take out a larger overdraft to do so.
> His
>> >> =
>> >> sales may be rising,
>> >> > and so in terms of dollars may be his profit. But
> =
>> >> the RATE of profit in
>> >> > ratio to that increase in sales taken over time
> is
>> >> =
>> >> in continuing=20
>> >> > decline.
>> >> > 'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the
>> >> business
> =
>> >> sense, are exactly the
>> >> > same. One of the components of 'interest', as
> we've
>> >> =
>> >> seen, is allowance=20
>> >> > for
>> >> > 'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit' =
>> >> would likely then have to=20
>> >> > be
>> >> > the same. It is why I believe Douglas noted that
>> >> =
>> >> "large works on=20
>> >> > completion
>> >> > are paid for by an expansion of credit." The
>> >> words
> =
>> >> "on completion" imply
>> >> > there must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond
> =
>> >> that which took place=20
>> >> > to
>> >> > initiate the construction of those 'large works'.
> =
>> >> The 'inflation' is
>> >> > continuous, and the community pays for its
>> >> progress
> =
>> >> twice. Unless there=20
>> >> > is
>> >> > an implimentation of the SC prescription,
>> >> whereupon
> =
>> >> we can finally begin=20
>> >> > to
>> >> > enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the =
>> >> proper decline in overall
>> >> > retail prices that capital appreciation should
>> >> have
>> >> =
>> >> brought about.
>> >> >
>> >> > =
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Some introductory materials to the discussion
>> >> topic
> =
>> >> of this list are at
>> >> > http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> > You're subscribed to this list with the email =
>> >> hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> >> > For more information, visit =
>> >> http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --=20
>> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >> > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 -
>> >> =
>> >> Release Date: 29/12/2005
>> >> >
>> >> >=20
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> =
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic
> of
>> >> =
>> >> this list are at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email =
>> >> thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
>> >> For more information, visit =
>> >> http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - =
>> >> Release Date: 29/12/2005
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> =
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic
> of
>> >> =
>> >> this list are at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email =
>> >> thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
>> >> For more information, visit =
>> >> http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
>> >> at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email
> hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> >> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.10/218 - =
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
>> >> at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
>> >> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.10/218 -
> Release
>> >> =
>> >> Date: 02/01/2006
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> =
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of =
>> >> this list are at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email =
>> >> wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
>> >> For more information, visit =
>> >> http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
>> >> at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email
> hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> >> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.11/219 - Release
> =
>> >> Date: 02/01/2006
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
>> >> at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
>> >> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.11/219 - Release =
>> >> Date: 02/01/2006
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> =
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this
>> >> =
>> >> list are at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email =
>> >> wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
>> >> For more information, visit =
>> >> http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
>> >> at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email
> hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> >> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release
> Date:
>> >> =
>> >> 1/4/2006
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
>> >> at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
>> >> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> =
>> >> -
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date:
> =
>> >> 1/4/2006
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> =
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list
> =
>> >> are at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email
> wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
>> >> For more information, visit =
>> >> http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >> at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email cymric@xtra.co.nz
>> >> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >> at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
>> >> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >> at
>> >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >> You're subscribed to this list with the email kenpalmerton@cix.co.uk
>> >> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >>
>> >> ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C61546.5E0AD4E0
>> >> Content-Type: text/html;
>> >> charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> >>
>> >> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>> >> <HTML><HEAD>
>> >> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>> >> charset=3Diso-8859-1">
>> >> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
>> >> <STYLE></STYLE>
>> >> </HEAD>
>> >> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Peter</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> >> size=3D2> &nb
>> >> sp;&nbs=
>> >> p; =20
>> >> Basically I agree with your comments. We, in Northland, were aware
> of=20
>> >> those very problems, and made out opinion known. We were
> over-ruled
>> >> =
>> >> by=20
>> >> others in the party. With respect to our campaign I don't share your =
>> >> pessimism=20
>> >> with respect to its being a total failure. Our Name is now back on the
> =
>> >> ballot=20
>> >> paper and people are aware we have returned. This gives us a starting
>> >> =
>> >> point to=20
>> >> canvass old supporters and woo them back into the fold. We did
> precisely
>> >> =
>> >> what=20
>> >> you suggested in Northland with respect to electoral meetings, and it
>> >> =
>> >> proved=20
>> >> revealing. Certainly the majority of candidates had difficulty
>> >> handling
> =
>> >> the=20
>> >> financial questions that we presented to them. That vindicates your =
>> >> expressed=20
>> >> views. Keep in contact Peter I appreciate your comments</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> >> size=3D2>
>> >> Bill=20
>> >> McGunnigle</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Incidently I
> =
>> >> am an=20
>> >> historian and I am in the process of completing a Masterate in History
> =
>> >> hence the=20
>> >> historical bent in some of my discources.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
>> >> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>> >> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
>> >> <DIV=20
>> >> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>> >> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> >> <A title=3Dcymric@xtra.co.nz href=3D"mailto:cymric@xtra.co.nz">Peter
> =
>> >> Haines</A>=20
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
>> >> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >>
>> >> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
> =
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 08,
>> >> 2006
> =
>> >> 12:08=20
>> >> PM</DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
>> >> Putting it=20
>> >> all together</DIV>
>> >> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Howdy Bill,</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I agree with your overview which
>> >> was
> =
>> >> largely=20
>> >> history. The one sentence about this past election - that you
>> >> =
>> >> were still=20
>> >> rebuilding the power-base and reminding NZ there was still a
>> >> m/reform
> =
>> >> party -=20
>> >> was a very expensive exercise that probably undermined =
>> >> both. There=20
>> >> is a presumption that the electorate knows what monetary reform=20
>> >> is.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From the scattered fragments =
>> >> I received I=20
>> >> percieved that the party has a financial blowout, resulting
> in=20
>> >> substantial dissension which is counterproductive for any powerbase
>> >> =
>> >> developent=20
>> >> and showed the electorate that the party cant attract any interest
>> >> in
> =
>> >> todays=20
>> >> world.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In short they would have been
>> >> better
> =
>> >> off to just=20
>> >> keep on building membership, gone in twos and threes to National and
> =
>> >> Labour=20
>> >> meetings and challenged them on debt issues in public and the like
>> >> to
> =
>> >> put=20
>> >> these issue in the public mind.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The gauntlet small parties have to
>> >> =
>> >> run as you=20
>> >> pointed out are old parts of the political landscape. So its =
>> >> foot=20
>> >> soldiers that are needed, for letterbox drops, door knocking =
>> >> and letters=20
>> >> to the editor. In my electorate I saw two billboards and
> nothing
>> >> =
>> >>
>> >> else. It's not a commercial art =
>> >> competition.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I would say that the number of
> people
>> >> =
>> >> who=20
>> >> appreciate the need of monetary reform, mostly past supporters
>> >> number
> =
>> >> a lot=20
>> >> more than those who voted for them.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If this was the basis of the
> election
>> >> =
>> >> campaign=20
>> >> then it would have been cheaper to call on past members in a =
>> >> variety of=20
>> >> electorates and interview them and make an accessment of potential =
>> >> support at=20
>> >> no cost. After all the wasted money they still dont know what
>> >> =
>> >> these=20
>> >> people think today. </FONT> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The arguing that goes on within the
> =
>> >> party shows=20
>> >> it is a mixed bag of people who have a simple and clear idea of what
> =
>> >> they are=20
>> >> against but fragented regards a clear and
> comprehensive
>> >> =
>> >> idea of=20
>> >> what they are FOR and how to go about it.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The decisions regarding the
>> >> election
> =
>> >> appear to be=20
>> >> based more on immature and psychological internal needs not cold =
>> >> reality of=20
>> >> the world outside. One of the biggest
>> >> hurdles is
> =
>> >> the=20
>> >> desire in the majority of the rank and file membership- we want a =
>> >> messiah (=20
>> >> like Betheem became) because then it all happens so easily and no
>> >> one
> =
>> >> has to=20
>> >> get out and footslog or fundraise etc as much, just pay their sub, =
>> >> attend a=20
>> >> few meetings, shake the Mans hand and sit back and wait for the
>> >> votes
> =
>> >> to roll=20
>> >> in.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There have been a lot of frustrated
> =
>> >> and very=20
>> >> talented people go through the SC party over the decades and =
>> >> they rarely=20
>> >> go back.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There were huge structural and =
>> >> functional faults=20
>> >> in the party when I was involved, the late 80s to mid 90s,
> which
>> >> =
>> >> can be=20
>> >> the measure of their results.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There was also another party that =
>> >> just started=20
>> >> out in the last election, the leader of which has an understanding
>> >> of
> =
>> >> SC but=20
>> >> the party was focused more towards constitutional issues,
> appreciating
>> >> =
>> >> that=20
>> >> one needs to build on good foundations not just on anything, =
>> >> consistent=20
>> >> with Douglas. It was called Direct Democracy. I =
>> >> havent seen=20
>> >> their election results and I expect they would not have done any =
>> >> better. =20
>> >> The average NZer who watches the 6 pm news on tellie and looks
> through
>> >> =
>> >> the=20
>> >> headlines of a newspaper several times a week and reads some letters
> =
>> >> to the=20
>> >> editor probably feels they know it all so any party that gets out on
> =
>> >> the=20
>> >> fringe and wants to prove chalk isnt cheese is going to find it
> hard=20
>> >> going.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However there seems to be an
>> >> absense
> =
>> >> of 'lessons=20
>> >> learned in the past' in the party and so they seem to be moving
> around
>> >> =
>> >> in=20
>> >> a circle not moving on.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Social Crediters should be the
> most=20
>> >> dynamic organised people in the world. The keys, I
> believe,
>> >> =
>> >>
>> >> are right under our noses but we are only interested
> =
>> >> in money=20
>> >> in the main and so we remain divided servants. Rather
>> >> ironic=20
>> >> really.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for your very interesting
> post
>> >> =
>> >> re the=20
>> >> international banks.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Peter =
>> >> H </FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
>> >> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
>> >> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>> >> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> >> <DIV=20
>> >> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>> >> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> >> <A title=3Dwmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz =
>> >> href=3D"mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">W.=20
>> >> McGunnigle</A> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
>> >> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> =
>> >> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
>> >> =
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 07,
> =
>> >> 2006 2:37=20
>> >> PM</DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit]
> =
>> >> Putting it=20
>> >> all together</DIV>
>> >> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Martin</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> >> =
>> >> size=3D2> &nb
>> >> sp;&nbs=
>> >> p; =20
>> >> The poor showing of the Democrats for Social Credit in the last NZ
> =
>> >> elections=20
>> >> were the result of a combination of factors. Some were external to
> =
>> >> the party=20
>> >> and some internal.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> We
> =
>> >> were part of=20
>> >> a coalition of minor parties called the Alliance from 1993 prior
>> >> to
> =
>> >> the 2002=20
>> >> election and had two MP's who, unfortunately, were very
>> >> ineffective
> =
>> >> in=20
>> >> propagating SC monetary reform policies. That Alliance split apart
> =
>> >> in 2002=20
>> >> and we supported the ousted leader of the Alliance at the 2002 =
>> >> election. In=20
>> >> restrospect I believe we should have gone out on our own then. We
>> >> =
>> >> decided to=20
>> >> revert to the independant Democrat party in 2003, and then had to
>> >> =
>> >> rebuild=20
>> >> our membership and reorganise which we had allowed to lapse during
> =
>> >> our=20
>> >> Alliance days. The 2005 election took place while we are still =
>> >> rebuilding=20
>> >> our power base and reminding the electorate that a monetary reform
> =
>> >> party=20
>> >> still exists on NZ. These were the internal problems. Externally,
> we
>> >> =
>> >> along=20
>> >> with every other minor party in NZ, have had to fight the TV
>> >> =
>> >> news media=20
>> >> for air time and news paper coverage. The former is effectively =
>> >> controlled=20
>> >> by the two major parties, who have bagged lion's share of
>> >> public=20
>> >> electioneering monies by virtue of their representation in =
>> >> Parliament. The=20
>> >> latter are controlled by international finance who have a vested =
>> >> interest in=20
>> >> trying to restore the old corrupt two party system responsible for
> =
>> >> the=20
>> >> disasterous indeptedness of our country.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Alternative =
>> >> policies to=20
>> >> those of the two major parties were deliberately ignored by the
> news
>> >> =
>> >> media.=20
>> >> We are back to the situation we faced in the mid =
>> >> 1970's when a big=20
>> >> split nearly destroyed the party, but there are ways we can
>> >> correct
> =
>> >> the=20
>> >> problems before the next election. There is a fertile ground for
> our
>> >> =
>> >>
>> >> policies particularly if we attack the banking system here which
>> >> is
> =
>> >> almost=20
>> >> totally foreigned owned. It was one of the conditions for
>> >> accepting
> =
>> >> IMF=20
>> >> loans together with cutting of "welfare spending" (This included =
>> >> reducing=20
>> >> old age pensions and unemployment benefits).</FONT><FONT =
>> >> face=3DArial=20
>> >> size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =
>> >> Incidently in=20
>> >> case the plug is totally pulled on this forum my personal e-mail
>> >> is
> =
>> >> <A=20
>> >> href=3D"mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz</A>
>> >> ifyou
>> >> =
>> >> ever wish=20
>> >> to contact me personally.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
> Have
>> >> =
>> >> a good New=20
>> >> Year Martin</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
>> >> size=3D2> Bill=20
>> >> McGunnigle</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
>> >> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
>> >> =
>> >> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV=20
>> >> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>> >> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> >> <A title=3Dhattersleyjm@interbaun.com=20
>> >> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A>
> =
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
>> >> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> =
>> >> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
>> >> =
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 06,
> =
>> >> 2006 12:20=20
>> >> PM</DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
> [socialcredit]
>> >> =
>> >> Putting=20
>> >> it all together</DIV>
>> >> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bill -</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for all the =
>> >> background.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I ordered a copy of Michel =
>> >> Chossudovsky's=20
>> >> "Globalization of Poverty", and his comments on the work of the
>> >> =
>> >> IMF, WTO=20
>> >> and World Bank make them look more like a criminal conspiracy to
> =
>> >> take over=20
>> >> the world by putting countries through the "race to the bottom"
> in
>> >> =
>> >> the=20
>> >> name of "free enterprise" than any sort of organizations devoted
> =
>> >> to the=20
>> >> public good.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Makes me sad to see that New =
>> >> Zealand (which=20
>> >> used to get worried if unemployment went over 1%) has now joined
> =
>> >> the ranks=20
>> >> of the indebted "have nots". It seems as if the
>> >> Democratic-Social
> =
>> >> Credit=20
>> >> party bombed badly in the past election, presumably because the
>> >> =
>> >> electorate=20
>> >> either didn't understand or didn't want monetary reform. Any =
>> >> comments or=20
>> >> explanations of this?</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All the best for 2006 =
>> >> -</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR>Martin =
>> >> Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99=20
>> >> St. Edmonton AB Canada<BR>Phone (780)423-2081; Fax=20
>> >> (780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A=20
>> >> href=3D"mailto:jmartinh@shaw.ca">jmartinh@shaw.ca</A>;<BR><A=20
>> >> =
>> >>
> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV> </DIV>
>> >> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
>> >> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
>> >> 5px;
> =
>> >> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV=20
>> >> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>> >> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> >> <A title=3Dwmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz =
>> >> href=3D"mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">W.=20
>> >> McGunnigle</A> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
>> >> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> =
>> >>
> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>=20
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January
> =
>> >> 05, 2006=20
>> >> 3:29 PM</DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
>> >> [socialcredit] Putting=20
>> >> it all together</DIV>
>> >> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Martin </FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> >> =
>> >> size=3D2> &nb
>> >> sp;&nbs=
>> >> p; =20
>> >> Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those
>> >> references.
> =
>> >> John=20
>> >> Rawson says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and
>> >> Debt",
> =
>> >> so I=20
>> >> will be able to access that volume. John and I have been
> friends
>> >> =
>> >> and=20
>> >> fellow workers in the Socred Movement in NZ for over 20 years.
> I
>> >> =
>> >> joined=20
>> >> the movement in 1980 after retiring from the Army. I was
>> >> unable
> =
>> >> to do so=20
>> >> prior to this because serving Army Officers are forbidden by
> law
>> >> =
>> >> to be=20
>> >> members of a political organisation in NZ. John and I began =
>> >> working=20
>> >> together in 1984 when I moved to Northland NZ. I appreciate
>> >> all
> =
>> >> the=20
>> >> comments made by members of the forum on monetary reform =
>> >> matters.=20
>> >> Incidently I have a brother in Singapore who, although he has
> no
>> >> =
>> >>
>> >> connection to the Socerd movement, has moved into the monetary
> =
>> >> reform=20
>> >> camp. He compared the way Singapore and Malaysia handled the =
>> >> "Monetary=20
>> >> Crisis" of the late 1980's to that of countries that begged =
>> >> funding from=20
>> >> the IMF and World Bank. Those who borrowed from the IMF are =
>> >> still in=20
>> >> crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia are flourishing. this =
>> >> contrasts to=20
>> >> Indonesia where a country rich in natural resources cannot =
>> >> provide for=20
>> >> its people because of crippling debt requirements. When he =
>> >> retires he=20
>> >> intends to broadcast his findings in an attempt to educate =
>> >> people to the=20
>> >> scam of international banking.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> >>
>> >> size=3D2>
>> >> =
>> >> Bill Mc=20
>> >> Gunnigle</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
>> >> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
>> >> 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
> =
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV=20
>> >> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
>> >> =
>> >> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> >> <A title=3Dhattersleyjm@interbaun.com=20
>> >> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin =
>> >> Hattersley</A> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
>> >> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> =
>> >>
> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>=20
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, =
>> >> January 04, 2006=20
>> >> 7:27 AM</DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
>> >> [socialcredit]=20
>> >> Putting it all together</DIV>
>> >> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, =
>> >> Virtual Wealth=20
>> >> and Debt", that was reprinted by Omni Publications in =
>> >> California quite=20
>> >> some time ago - I'm not sure that they are still in
>> >> business.
> =
>> >> I could=20
>> >> perhaps ask Wally Klinck to scan it for me and send you a =
>> >> copy, though=20
>> >> that's a bit of a tall order..</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on =
>> >> Google, and=20
>> >> there are several references to Soddy and his writings
>> >> there.
> =
>> >> I think=20
>> >> you might follow that route up and get what you are looking
>> >> =
>> >> for. Good=20
>> >> Luck!</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON
> AB=20
>> >> CANADA<BR>Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail:
> <A=20
>> >> =
>> >>
> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
>> >> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
> =
>> >> 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original
> Message -----
>> >> =
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV=20
>> >> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial;
>> >> font-color:
> =
>> >> black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> >> <A title=3Dwmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz =
>> >> href=3D"mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">W.=20
>> >> McGunnigle</A> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
>> >> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> =
>> >>
> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>=20
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday,
> January
>> >> =
>> >> 02, 2006=20
>> >> 8:05 PM</DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
>> >> [socialcredit]=20
>> >> Putting it all together</DIV>
>> >> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Martin</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
>> >> =
>> >> size=3D2> &nb
>> >> sp;&nbs=
>> >> p; =20
>> >> Where can I obtain copies of the work of Professor Soddy?
>> >> =
>> >> The paper=20
>> >> you created in 1988 was of great interest to me, and =
>> >> followed much=20
>> >> of the thinking pattern that colours my thoughts on the =
>> >> monetary=20
>> >> reform matters. </FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
>> >> size=3D2> I=20
>> >> certainly agree that the monetary concepts that govern so
>> >> =
>> >> called=20
>> >> "modern economics" definitely do not cope =
>> >> with</FONT> <FONT=20
>> >> face=3DArial size=3D2>the ever increasing debt problem,
>> >> and
> =
>> >> its=20
>> >> stiffling effect on human development. Effectively we have
> a
>> >> =
>> >>
>> >> monetary system developed in the 15th century geared to
>> >> the
> =
>> >> selfish=20
>> >> needs of Italian single city states trying to cope with a
>> >> =
>> >> global=20
>> >> economy that requires global equity of opportunity =
>> >> to access=20
>> >> finance. The situation is unstable, hence we have want
> and=20
>> >> starvation in a world of plenty.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Bill Mc=20
>> >> Gunnigle</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
>> >> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px;
> MARGIN-LEFT:
>> >> =
>> >> 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message =
>> >> ----- </DIV>
>> >> <DIV=20
>> >> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; =
>> >> font-color: black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> >> <A title=3Dhattersleyjm@interbaun.com=20
>> >> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin =
>> >> Hattersley</A>=20
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
>> >> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> =
>> >>
> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>=20
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, =
>> >> January 02,=20
>> >> 2006 1:44 PM</DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
>> >> [socialcredit]=20
>> >> Putting it all together</DIV>
>> >> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy
> =
>> >> out more=20
>> >> for his discussion of the "J curve", which I think is =
>> >> another way=20
>> >> of looking at A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas =
>> >> holus bolus.=20
>> >> </FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>There are more ways than one to skin
> a
>> >> =
>> >> cat, and=20
>> >> Douglas's price discount is the neatest way of =
>> >> balancing=20
>> >> production with demand, without demanding unnecessary
> work
>> >> =
>> >> from=20
>> >> anyone, that I know of - a definitely better=20
>> >> alternative.</FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St.,
>> >> <BR>EDMONTON
> =
>> >> AB=20
>> >> CANADA<BR>Phone
>> >> (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail:
> =
>> >> <A=20
>> >> =
>> >>
> href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
>> >> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
>> >> MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message
> =
>> >> -----=20
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV=20
>> >> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; =
>> >> font-color: black"><B>From:</B>=20
>> >> <A title=3Dthomsonhiyu@shaw.ca=20
>> >> href=3D"mailto:thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca">Joe Thomson</A> =
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
>> >> title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
>> >> =
>> >>
> href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>=20
>> >> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday,
> =
>> >> December=20
>> >> 31, 2005 10:31 PM</DIV>
>> >> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
>> >> [socialcredit]=20
>> >> Putting it all together</DIV>
>> >> <DIV><BR></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>That's a very interesting
> =
>> >> paper,=20
>> >> Martin, as are all your pieces. =
>> >> Thanks. I=20
>> >> don't think it hurts to explore some of the ideas of =
>> >> others in=20
>> >> comparison to those of Douglas. =
>> >> </FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>In Soddy I see some =
>> >> similarities with=20
>> >> Douglas, but different terminology and concepts.
> =
>> >> And=20
>> >> objective. Soddy seems to be more in favour of a
> 'stable
>> >> =
>> >> price=20
>> >> level' than a constantly 'falling'=20
>> >> one. As Douglas envisioned =
>> >> through an=20
>> >> application of credit enabling all the =
>> >> benefits of=20
>> >> continually advancing technology to be=20
>> >> accessed 'financially' by consumers in the =
>> >> provision of=20
>> >> desired product, As well as provision =
>> >> for increased=20
>> >> leisure . </FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Soddy seems to prefer =
>> >> 'government'=20
>> >> creating credit for spending on infrastructure rather
>> >> =
>> >> than new=20
>> >> debt-free 'consumer' credits to individuals. Is
>> >> =
>> >> this a=20
>> >> large part of the reason why many find=20
>> >> 'government' infrastructure spending in a =
>> >> slump so=20
>> >> attractive? To try to keep up the price =
>> >> level? =20
>> >> </FONT></DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
>> >> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I guess it's difficult for
>> >> many
> =
>> >> to=20
>> >> initially envision how 'consumer' goods could be
> =
>> >> sold for=20
>> >> less than f |
Re: [socialcredit]
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