In-Reply-To: <002001c617d7$d8cc1a20$926637d2@computer>
Hi Bill.
I am sure you count it great privilege to have met and known such a man,
I know I would have.
Surprising how similar our experiences have been in academia. My foray was
as a result of exasperation at my job being sold for m over my head,, yet
again. As I had responsibilities within the group I worked with for
Graduate development in marketing, though I had no academic qualifications
myself, and seeing my pupils on fast track for promotion, I took the
attitude of "Sodemall", and went off to college myself :-)
That was a laugh in itself, I had NO relevant bits of paper to get me in,
I had to do what salesmen are best at, I TALKED my way in :-)
I found that the tutors in marketing were, without exception, failed
salesmen :-(For me the saying about doing and teaching was found to be
true.
My salvation was found in other college faculties, and if the truth were
known, I had a ball :-))) Being "Grandad" had very definite advantages :-)
Though my experience then, compared with the situation of students here
today makes me very angry indeed.
I entered college in the mid 1970s, and as a "mature " student the rules
then were that not only was I entitled to a statutory grant, this was
enhanced in line with my previous Three years income. That, and the rebate
of the income tax I had paid in past years, made life fairly comfortable.
There were no tuition fees, indeed there were no fees then for students
from overseas either.
Compare that with the current situation. There are tuition fees, there are
no statutory grants, though there is a "loans" scheme that have students
leaving college with £15-20.000 debt. How about THAT for effective social
control ?
Overseas students are treated a milch cows, charged hefty fees that
Universities now see as their greatest income.
As we as a society are now in fact wealthier than we have ever been, WHAT
HAPPENED. And my party colleagues wonder why I have such strange
attitudes about money and finance :-(((
Ken.
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From: "W. McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
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Hi Ken
Like you I renewed my studies after retiring in1998 changing
disiplines from Science/Technology (BSc eqivalent Applied Chemistry) to
History. It was quite a shock to many young lecturers to meet up with a
hardcase senior citizen who only respected their ability if they could
answerhis questions in a satisfactory manner. They began to understand why
onlywhen my professor(s) pointed out that I already had a proven record of
accomplishment that many of them should strive to emulate. Needless to say
my main professors were considerably more difficuilt to handle particularly
one named Kerry Howe. He has one of the finest minds for lateral thinking I
have ever met. He is the accepted icon in NZ about the origins of NZ
settlement, and his arguments supporting his conclusions are clear, concise
and eminently understandable. He has a very dry sense of humour, and is a
mad sea canoeist having canoed his way all around the NZ coastline.Some of
it under quite hazardous sea conditions. He is not a man whom suffers fools
gladly, and is certainly not a man to have as an enemy.
Bill McGunnigle
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> In-Reply-To: <001b01c61637$9a5aeba0$516537d2@computer>
> Hi Bill.
>
> Thank you very much for sharing all that with me/us.
>
> I have to admit to you my serious misgivings about the present world of
> academia. As a simple and naive individual I had always had the belief
> that "education" was about the search for truth, and the growth of the
> individual.
>
> Yes I know, deluded and simplistic. But I NEVER realised that there was
> another agenda until I actually got to college, aged 40.
>
> The first run in I had was concerning the economics component of my BA
> (hons) course. As a committed Christian I was being told that "Economics
> was the study of the distribution of scarcity". As a Christian I did not
> believe that we in fact lived in scarcity, so why were we studying it ?
>
> That was my first mistake. And there is a long story, that I will not
bore> you with. Unless you are foolish enough to ask :-)
>
> My college period coincided with an increasing awareness of the MR
> movement worldwide. And a deterioration of a health problem that had
> caused problems for some years. So, when I started to investigate the
> possibility of filling my then restricted life with study, I found that I
> was on my own. No one would validate study on the sorts of things I
wanted> to study, and put into some sort of order that academic discipline
would> aid.
>
> Would you believe that it was establishing contact with British Muslims,
> as a Christian, that offered the best possibilities for study? Contacts
> with academics in Qum, Ankara, Khartoum, Kuala Lumpur, and Karachi
> universities, that had the most open of minds to what we would call MR.
>
> I have a close English friend here in Manchester who has given up his
> Masters studies very recently due to not being allowed to follow his own
> study agenda.
>
> I had read of the difficulties of the Kiwi with the Zionists, though not
> in detail. But I had wondered if what I believe is a more open society in
> NZ would have allowed some common sense to shine through :-)))
>
> As said elsewhere, the struggle goes on:-)
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
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> From: "W. McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> References: <memo.249529@cix.compulink.co.uk>
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>
> Hi Ken
> My Masters is just a straight History one, but does include a
> considerable amount of NZ History. My research has been confined to NZ
> railways. A topic that is my hobby, and about which I have extensive
> knowledge. My intention after completing this Masters is to do either a
PhD
> or an M Phil (by thesis) on the effects of the new right policies on
> industry particularly the period in NZ history called the "Rogernomics
Era"
> approx 1985-1999.
> Ajudication is a complex affair at Massey University NZ, and
includes
> your own supervisor and to seperate indepedent professor-grade assessors
> from different disciplines. They check your structure, argument, and
verify
> your source material. Care is taken to ensure that political bias is
evened
> out. I have found their critiques to be fair, even handed, and very
> professional. They are looking for valid argument and logical siupport to
> that argument in our theses. There has been a big row recently among the
> senior heirarchy of our universities about a Masters thesis in 1990 by a
> lecturer at Massey for his Masters degree. It questioned aspects of the
> "Holocaust", and was not well received by certain parts of the
> establishmentin 2002, when it was published in a popular newspaper. That
> paper demandedthe lecturer be stripped of his degree for his conclusions.
> Theunpleasantness led to his resignation, but he had been given a good
> honoursgrade for the work. Basically he had "followed the rules" with
> respect tothe work and deserved recognition. He was not deprived of his
> degree. A fewcowards wanted to give way to the news media, but the odium
> heaped uponthose individuals by the rest of the academic world here has
> quashed anyfurther attempts at this type of media pressure.
> Bill McGunnigle
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
>
>
> > In-Reply-To: <001d01c614d9$6825bc00$5d6437d2@computer>
> > Hi Bill.
> >
> > "Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat its failures"
:-)))> >
> > For nearly Thirty years I have been fascinated by the NZ political
scene.
> > Fed to me largely through Colin Whitmill. So please someone, keep the
> > information flowing :-)
> >
> > I remember well the excitement here when SoCred gained 22% of the vote.
> > Though at the time you were the only other developed nation with that
God
> > awful first past the post electoral system. So it earned you only Two
> > seats in Parliament :-((
> >
> > We knew, and still know the feeling :-(
> >
> > Ken.
> >
> > By the way Bill, is the subject of your Masters anything to do with MR
?> >
> > If so, how did you manage to find someone who would adjudicate ?
> >
> > Ken.
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> >
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> > Message-ID: <001d01c614d9$6825bc00$5d6437d2@computer>
> > From: "W. McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
> > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > References: <000501c60bee$9fe0a720$de5b22cf@martinh4>
> > <000e01c60c95$d2e7b9e0$bad44246@cc.shawcable.net>
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> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
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> >
> > Hi Peter
> > Basically I agree with your comments. We, in Northland, =
> > were aware of those very problems, and made out opinion known. We were
=> > over-ruled by others in the party. With respect to our campaign I
don't=
> > share your pessimism with respect to its being a total failure. Our
Name> => is now back on the ballot paper and people are aware we have
returned.=
> > This gives us a starting point to canvass old supporters and woo them =
> > back into the fold. We did precisely what you suggested in Northland =
> > with respect to electoral meetings, and it proved revealing. Certainly
=> > the majority of candidates had difficulty handling the financial =
> > questions that we presented to them. That vindicates your expressed =
> > views. Keep in contact Peter I appreciate your comments
> > Bill McGunnigle
> >
> > Incidently I am an historian and I am in the process of completing
=
> > a Masterate in History hence the historical bent in some of my =
> > discources.
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: Peter Haines=20
> > To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
> > Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 12:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> >
> >
> > Howdy Bill,
> >
> > I agree with your overview which was largely history. The one =
> > sentence about this past election - that you were still rebuilding the
=> > power-base and reminding NZ there was still a m/reform party - was a =
> > very expensive exercise that probably undermined both. There is a =
> > presumption that the electorate knows what monetary reform is.
> > From the scattered fragments I received I percieved that the party
has> => a financial blowout, resulting in substantial dissension which is =
> > counterproductive for any powerbase developent and showed the
electorate> => that the party cant attract any interest in todays world.
> > In short they would have been better off to just keep on building =
> > membership, gone in twos and threes to National and Labour meetings and
=
> > challenged them on debt issues in public and the like to put these
issue> => in the public mind.
> > The gauntlet small parties have to run as you pointed out are old =
> > parts of the political landscape. So its foot soldiers that are
needed,> => for letterbox drops, door knocking and letters to the editor.
In my => > electorate I saw two billboards and nothing else. It's not a
commercial> => art competition.
> > I would say that the number of people who appreciate the need of =
> > monetary reform, mostly past supporters number a lot more than those
who> => voted for them.
> > If this was the basis of the election campaign then it would have
been> => cheaper to call on past members in a variety of electorates and =
> > interview them and make an accessment of potential support at no cost.
=
> > After all the wasted money they still dont know what these people think
=
> > today. =20
> > The arguing that goes on within the party shows it is a mixed bag of
=> > people who have a simple and clear idea of what they are against but =
> > fragented regards a clear and comprehensive idea of what they are FOR =
> > and how to go about it.
> > The decisions regarding the election appear to be based more on =
> > immature and psychological internal needs not cold reality of the world
=
> > outside. One of the biggest hurdles is the desire in the majority of =
> > the rank and file membership- we want a messiah ( like Betheem became)
=> > because then it all happens so easily and no one has to get out and =
> > footslog or fundraise etc as much, just pay their sub, attend a few =
> > meetings, shake the Mans hand and sit back and wait for the votes to =
> > roll in.
> > There have been a lot of frustrated and very talented people go =
> > through the SC party over the decades and they rarely go back.
> > There were huge structural and functional faults in the party when I
=> > was involved, the late 80s to mid 90s, which can be the measure of =
> > their results.
> > There was also another party that just started out in the last =
> > election, the leader of which has an understanding of SC but the party
=> > was focused more towards constitutional issues, appreciating that one
=> > needs to build on good foundations not just on anything, consistent
with> => Douglas. It was called Direct Democracy. I havent seen their
election> => results and I expect they would not have done any better.
The average=
> > NZer who watches the 6 pm news on tellie and looks through the
headlines> => of a newspaper several times a week and reads some letters
to the> editor => probably feels they know it all so any party that gets
out on> the fringe => and wants to prove chalk isnt cheese is going to
find it> hard going.> However there seems to be an absense of 'lessons
learned in> the past' => in the party and so they seem to be moving around
in a circle> not moving => on.
> > Social Crediters should be the most dynamic organised people in the =
> > world. The keys, I believe, are right under our noses but we are only
=
> > interested in money in the main and so we remain divided servants. =
> > Rather ironic really.
> > Thanks for your very interesting post re the international banks.
> > Peter H =20
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: W. McGunnigle=20
> > To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
> > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> >
> >
> > Hi Martin
> > The poor showing of the Democrats for Social Credit in
=
> > the last NZ elections were the result of a combination of factors. Some
=
> > were external to the party and some internal.
> > We were part of a coalition of minor parties called the =
> > Alliance from 1993 prior to the 2002 election and had two MP's who, =
> > unfortunately, were very ineffective in propagating SC monetary reform
=> > policies. That Alliance split apart in 2002 and we supported the
ousted=
> > leader of the Alliance at the 2002 election. In restrospect I believe
we> => should have gone out on our own then. We decided to revert to the =
> > independant Democrat party in 2003, and then had to rebuild our =
> > membership and reorganise which we had allowed to lapse during our =
> > Alliance days. The 2005 election took place while we are still =
> > rebuilding our power base and reminding the electorate that a monetary
=> > reform party still exists on NZ. These were the internal problems. =
> > Externally, we along with every other minor party in NZ, have had to =
> > fight the TV news media for air time and news paper coverage. The
former> => is effectively controlled by the two major parties, who have
bagged => > lion's share of public electioneering monies by virtue of
their => > representation in Parliament. The latter are controlled by
international> => finance who have a vested interest in trying to restore
the old corrupt> => two party system responsible for the disasterous
indeptedness of our => > country.
> > Alternative policies to those of the two major parties were =
> > deliberately ignored by the news media. We are back to the situation we
=
> > faced in the mid 1970's when a big split nearly destroyed the party,
but> => there are ways we can correct the problems before the next
election. => > There is a fertile ground for our policies particularly if
we attack the> => banking system here which is almost totally foreigned
owned. It was one> => of the conditions for accepting IMF loans together
with cutting of => > "welfare spending" (This included reducing old age
pensions and => > unemployment benefits). =20
> > Incidently in case the plug is totally pulled on this forum
my> => personal e-mail is wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz ifyou ever wish to contact
me => > personally.
> > Have a good New Year Martin
> > Bill McGunnigle
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: Martin Hattersley=20
> > To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
> > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 12:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> >
> >
> > Bill -
> >
> > Thanks for all the background.
> >
> > I ordered a copy of Michel Chossudovsky's "Globalization of =
> > Poverty", and his comments on the work of the IMF, WTO and World Bank =
> > make them look more like a criminal conspiracy to take over the world
by> => putting countries through the "race to the bottom" in the name of
"free> => enterprise" than any sort of organizations devoted to the public
good.> >
> > Makes me sad to see that New Zealand (which used to get worried
if> => unemployment went over 1%) has now joined the ranks of the indebted
=> > "have nots". It seems as if the Democratic-Social Credit party bombed
=> > badly in the past election, presumably because the electorate either =
> > didn't understand or didn't want monetary reform. Any comments or =
> > explanations of this?
> >
> > All the best for 2006 -
> >
> > Martin Hattersley
> > 1970-10123-99 St. Edmonton AB Canada
> > Phone (780)423-2081; Fax (780)425-5247
> > e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca;
> > hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: W. McGunnigle=20
> > To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
> > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> >
> >
> > Hi Martin=20
> > Thanks for the help. Will follow through with =
> > those references. John Rawson says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual =
> > Wealth and Debt", so I will be able to access that volume. John and I =
> > have been friends and fellow workers in the Socred Movement in NZ for =
> > over 20 years. I joined the movement in 1980 after retiring from the =
> > Army. I was unable to do so prior to this because serving Army Officers
=
> > are forbidden by law to be members of a political organisation in NZ. =
> > John and I began working together in 1984 when I moved to Northland NZ.
=
> > I appreciate all the comments made by members of the forum on monetary
=> > reform matters. Incidently I have a brother in Singapore who,
although => > he has no connection to the Socerd movement, has moved into
the monetary> => reform camp. He compared the way Singapore and Malaysia
handled the => > "Monetary Crisis" of the late 1980's to that of countries
that begged => > funding from the IMF and World Bank. Those who borrowed
from the IMF are> => still in crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia are
flourishing. this => > contrasts to Indonesia where a country rich in
natural resources cannot=
> > provide for its people because of crippling debt requirements. When he
=> > retires he intends to broadcast his findings in an attempt to educate
=> > people to the scam of international banking.
> > Bill Mc Gunnigle
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: Martin Hattersley=20
> > To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> >
> >
> > I do have a copy of Soddy's "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and
Debt",> => that was reprinted by Omni Publications in California quite
some time => > ago - I'm not sure that they are still in business. I could
perhaps ask=
> > Wally Klinck to scan it for me and send you a copy, though that's a bit
=
> > of a tall order..
> >
> > I looked up "Cartesian Economics" on Google, and there are =
> > several references to Soddy and his writings there. I think you might =
> > follow that route up and get what you are looking for. Good Luck!
> >
> > Martin Hattersley
> > 1970-10123-99 St.,=20
> > EDMONTON AB CANADA
> > Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
> > e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: W. McGunnigle=20
> > To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
> > Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:05 PM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> >
> >
> > Hi Martin
> > Where can I obtain copies of the work of =
> > Professor Soddy? The paper you created in 1988 was of great interest to
=
> > me, and followed much of the thinking pattern that colours my thoughts
=> > on the monetary reform matters.=20
> > I certainly agree that the monetary concepts that =
> > govern so called "modern economics" definitely do not cope with the
ever> => increasing debt problem, and its stiffling effect on human
development.> => Effectively we have a monetary system developed in the
15th century => > geared to the selfish needs of Italian single city
states trying to cope> => with a global economy that requires global
equity of opportunity to => > access finance. The situation is unstable,
hence we have want and => > starvation in a world of plenty.
> > Bill Mc Gunnigle
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: Martin Hattersley=20
> > To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
> > Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> >
> >
> > Yes, Joe, I sent that paper on Soddy out more for his =
> > discussion of the "J curve", which I think is another way of looking at
=
> > A+B, rather than for adopting his ideas holus bolus.=20
> >
> > There are more ways than one to skin a cat, and Douglas's
=
> > price discount is the neatest way of balancing production with demand,
=
> > without demanding unnecessary work from anyone, that I know of - a =
> > definitely better alternative.
> >
> > Martin Hattersley
> > 1970-10123-99 St.,=20
> > EDMONTON AB CANADA
> > Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
> > e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: Joe Thomson=20
> > To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
> > Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 10:31 PM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> >
> >
> > That's a very interesting paper, Martin, as are all
your> => pieces. Thanks. I don't think it hurts to explore some of the
ideas> of => others in comparison to those of Douglas. =20
> >
> > In Soddy I see some similarities with Douglas, but =
> > different terminology and concepts. And objective. Soddy seems to be =
> > more in favour of a 'stable price level' than a constantly 'falling' =
> > one. As Douglas envisioned through an application of credit
enabling> => all the benefits of continually advancing technology to be
accessed => > 'financially' by consumers in the provision of desired
product, As well=
> > as provision for increased leisure . =20
> >
> > Soddy seems to prefer 'government' creating credit for
=> > spending on infrastructure rather than new debt-free 'consumer'
credits=
> > to individuals. Is this a large part of the reason why many find =
> > 'government' infrastructure spending in a slump so attractive? To try
=
> > to keep up the price level? =20
> >
> > I guess it's difficult for many to initially envision
=> > how 'consumer' goods could be sold for less than financial cost on an
=> > ongoing basis without businesses being ruined, Simply through the =
> > employment of a different technique of credit. But I think true =
> > 'consumer' demand made ''effective demand'' would then create renewed
=> > economic activity far more effectively than 'infrastructure spending'
=> > pump priming ever will.=20
> >
> > I've nothing against 'needed' infrastructure being =
> > built, but not as 'make work' projects to provide an unnecessary
'moral'> => reason for paying people an 'income'. As well as a means of
keeping => > them 'under control'.=20
> >
> > Soddy sounds like a bit of a 'puritan' to me in that =
> > regard~ he seems concerned to keep everyone 'working'. The goal of a
=
> > triumph of the individual's 'will-to-freedom' over the 'will-to-power'
=
> > externally imposed economically on him, something so prevalent in =
> > Douglas, seems to be absent with Soddy. =20
> >
> > I get the impression from what you've written and =
> > quoted he thinks the 'government' knows best. Personally, I think =
> > once we get Douglas completely figured out, Soddy will best remain =
> > remembered for discovering isotopes.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: Martin Hattersley=20
> > To: socialcredit@elistas.com=20
> > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> >
> >
> > I'm attaching a paper I did a while back on the late
=> > Professor Soddy for the=20
> > Eastern Economics Association. I think Soddy's =
> > description of the "J curve"=20
> > phenomenon essentially describes the problem we have
=> > to tackle.
> >
> > Martin Hattersley
> > 1970-10123-99 St.,
> > EDMONTON AB CANADA
> > Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
> > e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 AM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Putting it all together
> >
> >
> > >I agree with a great deal of what Martin has written
=
> > identifying the
> > > problems, but I do not fully concur with some of
the> => solutions. This may
> > > well be due to a lack of knowledge on my part, or =
> > that I'm reading into=20
> > > what
> > > Martin's proposing something that isn't intended by
=
> > him. But there are=20
> > > some
> > > concerns I have with some of what's proposed =
> > nevertheless. I'll come back
> > > to them later, but for the moment I'd like to =
> > comment on just this.
> > >
> > > (Martin wrote:-) > 5. What this initial expression
=
> > of the theorem omitted
> > > was the fact that
> > >> certain industries distribute wages to their =
> > workers, while not putting
> > >> goods on the market for immediate sale to =
> > consumers. These are the
> > > factories
> > >> that make the tools that workers will later use to
=
> > turn out actual
> > > products.
> > >> While this new capital formation is taking place,
=> > its distribution of
> > > funds
> > >> to consumers in wages and dividends, particularly
=> > when financed by newly
> > >> created bank credit, serves as a form of National
=> > Dividend that makes it
> > >> possible for the consuming public to buy all that
=> > is on the market for
> > > sale,
> > >> without producers being forced to sell below cost.
> > >
> > > (Joe replies:-) There is a quote in one of the =
> > early Douglas books that
> > > remarks " ....just as the construction of a new =
> > railway bridge raises the
> > > price of bacon in a village shop." While there is
=> > no doubt that 'newly
> > > created bank credit' to finance new works serves as
=
> > you say, however it is
> > > also, I think, true what Douglas says.
> > >
> > > He notes that the upper limit of price is governed
=> > roughly by the=20
> > > 'quantity
> > > theory of money'. The lower by financial 'cost'.
If> => there's 'more money
> > > about' the merchant is going to try and get 'more'
=> > of it. He has to, if
> > > he's to stay in business. Simply because the fact
=> > there IS 'more money
> > > about' has diluted the purchasing power of ALL
money> => about.
> > >
> > > He is selling in the hopes of making a profit. The
=> > same as a bank lends at
> > > interest in hopes of the same. But money is =
> > variable in what it will=20
> > > 'buy',
> > > and he has to continually replace and, if selling
=> > more, increase, his=20
> > > stock
> > > in trade. (Just as a bank has to increase its =
> > 'stock', its 'deposits' or
> > > whatever else we've been foolish enough to allow it
=
> > to use as its=20
> > > reserves,
> > > if it wants to lend 'more'. There is a 'cost' to =
> > doing this ~ banks 'pay'
> > > interest as well as receive it. And 'more' interest
=
> > when they want more
> > > deposits.)
> > >
> > > If the stock the merchant buys has risen in price,
=> > what he might have=20
> > > taken
> > > for himself in profit is diminished. It goes back
=> > to fund the new stock,=20
> > > or
> > > he has to take out a larger overdraft to do so.
His> => sales may be rising,
> > > and so in terms of dollars may be his profit. But
=> > the RATE of profit in
> > > ratio to that increase in sales taken over time
is> => in continuing=20
> > > decline.
> > > 'Interest' and 'profit', considered in the business
=
> > sense, are exactly the
> > > same. One of the components of 'interest', as
we've> => seen, is allowance=20
> > > for
> > > 'inflation'. One of the components of 'profit' =
> > would likely then have to=20
> > > be
> > > the same. It is why I believe Douglas noted that =
> > "large works on=20
> > > completion
> > > are paid for by an expansion of credit." The words
=
> > "on completion" imply
> > > there must be a FURTHER expansion of credit beyond
=> > that which took place=20
> > > to
> > > initiate the construction of those 'large works'.
=> > The 'inflation' is
> > > continuous, and the community pays for its progress
=
> > twice. Unless there=20
> > > is
> > > an implimentation of the SC prescription, whereupon
=
> > we can finally begin=20
> > > to
> > > enjoy as consumers the fruits of progress at the =
> > proper decline in overall
> > > retail prices that capital appreciation should have
> => brought about.
> > >
> > > =
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Some introductory materials to the discussion topic
=
> > of this list are at
> > > http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> > > You're subscribed to this list with the email =
> > hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> > > For more information, visit =
> > http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
> > >
> > >
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> > >
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> >
> >
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> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> > You're subscribed to this list with the email =
> > thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
> > For more information, visit =
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> >
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> > You're subscribed to this list with the email =
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> > For more information, visit =
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> >
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> -
> >
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> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C61546.5E0AD4E0
> > Content-Type: text/html;
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> > <HTML><HEAD>
> > <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
> > charset=3Diso-8859-1">
> > <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
> > <STYLE></STYLE>
> > </HEAD>
> > <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Peter</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
> >
>
size=3D2> &nb
> > sp;&nbs=
> > p; =20
> > Basically I agree with your comments. We, in Northland, were aware
of=20> > those very problems, and made out opinion known. We were
over-ruled
> =
> > by=20
> > others in the party. With respect to our campaign I don't share your =
> > pessimism=20
> > with respect to its being a total failure. Our Name is now back on the
=> > ballot=20
> > paper and people are aware we have returned. This gives us a starting =
> > point to=20
> > canvass old supporters and woo them back into the fold. We did
precisely> => what=20
> > you suggested in Northland with respect to electoral meetings, and it =
> > proved=20
> > revealing. Certainly the majority of candidates had difficulty handling
=
> > the=20
> > financial questions that we presented to them. That vindicates your =
> > expressed=20
> > views. Keep in contact Peter I appreciate your comments</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
> > size=3D2>
> > Bill=20
> > McGunnigle</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Incidently I
=
> > am an=20
> > historian and I am in the process of completing a Masterate in History
=> > hence the=20
> > historical bent in some of my discources.</FONT></DIV>
> > <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
> > style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
> > BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> > <DIV=20
> > style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
> > black"><B>From:</B>=20
> > <A title=3Dcymric@xtra.co.nz href=3D"mailto:cymric@xtra.co.nz">Peter
=> > Haines</A>=20
> > </DIV>
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
> > title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
> > href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>
=
> > </DIV>
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 08, 2006
=
> > 12:08=20
> > PM</DIV>
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] =
> > Putting it=20
> > all together</DIV>
> > <DIV><BR></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Howdy Bill,</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I agree with your overview which was
=
> > largely=20
> > history. The one sentence about this past election - that you =
> > were still=20
> > rebuilding the power-base and reminding NZ there was still a m/reform
=
> > party -=20
> > was a very expensive exercise that probably undermined =
> > both. There=20
> > is a presumption that the electorate knows what monetary reform=20
> > is.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From the scattered fragments =
> > I received I=20
> > percieved that the party has a financial blowout, resulting
in=20> > substantial dissension which is counterproductive for any
powerbase => > developent=20
> > and showed the electorate that the party cant attract any interest in
=
> > todays=20
> > world.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In short they would have been better
=
> > off to just=20
> > keep on building membership, gone in twos and threes to National and
=> > Labour=20
> > meetings and challenged them on debt issues in public and the like to
=
> > put=20
> > these issue in the public mind.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The gauntlet small parties have to =
> > run as you=20
> > pointed out are old parts of the political landscape. So its =
> > foot=20
> > soldiers that are needed, for letterbox drops, door knocking =
> > and letters=20
> > to the editor. In my electorate I saw two billboards and
nothing> =>
> > else. It's not a commercial art =
> > competition.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I would say that the number of
people> => who=20
> > appreciate the need of monetary reform, mostly past supporters number
=
> > a lot=20
> > more than those who voted for them.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If this was the basis of the
election> => campaign=20
> > then it would have been cheaper to call on past members in a =
> > variety of=20
> > electorates and interview them and make an accessment of potential =
> > support at=20
> > no cost. After all the wasted money they still dont know what =
> > these=20
> > people think today. </FONT> </DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The arguing that goes on within the
=> > party shows=20
> > it is a mixed bag of people who have a simple and clear idea of what
=> > they are=20
> > against but fragented regards a clear and
comprehensive
> =
> > idea of=20
> > what they are FOR and how to go about it.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The decisions regarding the election
=
> > appear to be=20
> > based more on immature and psychological internal needs not cold =
> > reality of=20
> > the world outside. One of the biggest hurdles is
=
> > the=20
> > desire in the majority of the rank and file membership- we want a =
> > messiah (=20
> > like Betheem became) because then it all happens so easily and no one
=
> > has to=20
> > get out and footslog or fundraise etc as much, just pay their sub, =
> > attend a=20
> > few meetings, shake the Mans hand and sit back and wait for the votes
=
> > to roll=20
> > in.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There have been a lot of frustrated
=> > and very=20
> > talented people go through the SC party over the decades and =
> > they rarely=20
> > go back.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There were huge structural and =
> > functional faults=20
> > in the party when I was involved, the late 80s to mid 90s,
which> => can be=20
> > the measure of their results.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There was also another party that =
> > just started=20
> > out in the last election, the leader of which has an understanding of
=
> > SC but=20
> > the party was focused more towards constitutional issues,
appreciating> => that=20
> > one needs to build on good foundations not just on anything, =
> > consistent=20
> > with Douglas. It was called Direct Democracy. I =
> > havent seen=20
> > their election results and I expect they would not have done any =
> > better. =20
> > The average NZer who watches the 6 pm news on tellie and looks
through> => the=20
> > headlines of a newspaper several times a week and reads some letters
=> > to the=20
> > editor probably feels they know it all so any party that gets out on
=> > the=20
> > fringe and wants to prove chalk isnt cheese is going to find it
hard=20
> > going.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However there seems to be an absense
=
> > of 'lessons=20
> > learned in the past' in the party and so they seem to be moving
around> => in=20
> > a circle not moving on.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Social Crediters should be the
most=20
> > dynamic organised people in the world. The keys, I
believe,> =>
> > are right under our noses but we are only interested
=> > in money=20
> > in the main and so we remain divided servants. Rather ironic=20
> > really.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for your very interesting
post> => re the=20
> > international banks.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Peter =
> > H </FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> > <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
> > style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
> > BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> > <DIV=20
> > style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
> > black"><B>From:</B>=20
> > <A title=3Dwmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz =
> > href=3D"mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">W.=20
> > McGunnigle</A> </DIV>
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
> > title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
> > =
> > href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
> > </DIV>
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 07,
=> > 2006 2:37=20
> > PM</DIV>
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit]
=> > Putting it=20
> > all together</DIV>
> > <DIV><BR></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Martin</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
> > =
> >
>
size=3D2> &nb
> > sp;&nbs=
> > p; =20
> > The poor showing of the Democrats for Social Credit in the last NZ
=> > elections=20
> > were the result of a combination of factors. Some were external to
=> > the party=20
> > and some internal.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
We
> =
> > were part of=20
> > a coalition of minor parties called the Alliance from 1993 prior to
=
> > the 2002=20
> > election and had two MP's who, unfortunately, were very ineffective
=
> > in=20
> > propagating SC monetary reform policies. That Alliance split apart
=> > in 2002=20
> > and we supported the ousted leader of the Alliance at the 2002 =
> > election. In=20
> > restrospect I believe we should have gone out on our own then. We =
> > decided to=20
> > revert to the independant Democrat party in 2003, and then had to =
> > rebuild=20
> > our membership and reorganise which we had allowed to lapse during
=> > our=20
> > Alliance days. The 2005 election took place while we are still =
> > rebuilding=20
> > our power base and reminding the electorate that a monetary reform
=> > party=20
> > still exists on NZ. These were the internal problems. Externally,
we> => along=20
> > with every other minor party in NZ, have had to fight the TV =
> > news media=20
> > for air time and news paper coverage. The former is effectively =
> > controlled=20
> > by the two major parties, who have bagged lion's share of public=20
> > electioneering monies by virtue of their representation in =
> > Parliament. The=20
> > latter are controlled by international finance who have a vested =
> > interest in=20
> > trying to restore the old corrupt two party system responsible for
=> > the=20
> > disasterous indeptedness of our country.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Alternative =
> > policies to=20
> > those of the two major parties were deliberately ignored by the
news> => media.=20
> > We are back to the situation we faced in the mid =
> > 1970's when a big=20
> > split nearly destroyed the party, but there are ways we can correct
=
> > the=20
> > problems before the next election. There is a fertile ground for
our> =>
> > policies particularly if we attack the banking system here which is
=
> > almost=20
> > totally foreigned owned. It was one of the conditions for accepting
=
> > IMF=20
> > loans together with cutting of "welfare spending" (This included =
> > reducing=20
> > old age pensions and unemployment benefits).</FONT><FONT =
> > face=3DArial=20
> > size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =
> > Incidently in=20
> > case the plug is totally pulled on this forum my personal e-mail is
=
> > <A=20
> > href=3D"mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz</A>
> ifyou
> > =
> > ever wish=20
> > to contact me personally.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
> Have
> > =
> > a good New=20
> > Year Martin</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
> > size=3D2> Bill=20
> > McGunnigle</FONT></DIV>
> > <BLOCKQUOTE=20
> > style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
=
> > BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
> > </DIV>
> > <DIV=20
> > style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
> > black"><B>From:</B>=20
> > <A title=3Dhattersleyjm@interbaun.com=20
> > href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A>
=> > </DIV>
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
> > title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
> > =
> > href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
> > </DIV>
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 06,
=> > 2006 12:20=20
> > PM</DIV>
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[socialcredit]> => Putting=20
> > it all together</DIV>
> > <DIV><BR></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bill -</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for all the =
> > background.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I ordered a copy of Michel =
> > Chossudovsky's=20
> > "Globalization of Poverty", and his comments on the work of the =
> > IMF, WTO=20
> > and World Bank make them look more like a criminal conspiracy to
=> > take over=20
> > the world by putting countries through the "race to the bottom"
in> => the=20
> > name of "free enterprise" than any sort of organizations devoted
=> > to the=20
> > public good.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Makes me sad to see that New =
> > Zealand (which=20
> > used to get worried if unemployment went over 1%) has now joined
=> > the ranks=20
> > of the indebted "have nots". It seems as if the Democratic-Social
=
> > Credit=20
> > party bombed badly in the past election, presumably because the =
> > electorate=20
> > either didn't understand or didn't want monetary reform. Any =
> > comments or=20
> > explanations of this?</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All the best for 2006 =
> > -</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR>Martin =
> > Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99=20
> > St. Edmonton AB Canada<BR>Phone (780)423-2081; Fax=20
> > (780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A=20
> > href=3D"mailto:jmartinh@shaw.ca">jmartinh@shaw.ca</A>;<BR><A=20
> > =
> >
>
href=3D"mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A>=
> > </DIV>
> > <DIV> </DIV>
> > <DIV> </DIV>
> > <BLOCKQUOTE=20
> > style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
=
> > BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
> > </DIV>
> > <DIV=20
> > style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
> > black"><B>From:</B>=20
> > <A title=3Dwmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz =
> > href=3D"mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz">W.=20
> > McGunnigle</A> </DIV>
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
> > title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
> > =
> >
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A>=20>
> </DIV>> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, January => > 05, 2006=20
> > 3:29 PM</DIV>
> > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
> > [socialcredit] Putting=20
> > it all together</DIV>
> > <DIV><BR></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Martin </FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
> > =
> >
>
size=3D2> &nb
> > sp;&nbs=
> > p; =20
> > Thanks for the help. Will follow through with those references.
=
> > John=20
> > Rawson says he has a copy of "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt",
=
> > so I=20
> > will be able to access that volume. John and I have been
friends> => and=20
> > fellow workers in the Socred Movement in NZ for over 20 years.
I> => joined=20
> > the movement in 1980 after retiring from the Army. I was unable
=
> > to do so=20
> > prior to this because serving Army Officers are forbidden by
law> => to be=20
> > members of a political organisation in NZ. John and I began =
> > working=20
> > together in 1984 when I moved to Northland NZ. I appreciate all
=
> > the=20
> > comments made by members of the forum on monetary reform =
> > matters.=20
> > Incidently I have a brother in Singapore who, although he has
no> =>
> > connection to the Socerd movement, has moved into the monetary
=> > reform=20
> > camp. He compared the way Singapore and Malaysia handled the =
> > "Monetary=20
> > Crisis" of the late 1980's to that of countries that begged =
> > funding from=20
> > the IMF and World Bank. Those who borrowed from the IMF are =
> > still in=20
> > crisis, but Singapore and Malaysia are flourishing. this =
> > contrasts to=20
> > Indonesia where a country rich in natural resources cannot =
> > provide for=20
> > its people because of crippling debt requirements. When he =
> > retires he=20
> > intends to broadcast his findings in an attempt to educate =
> > people to the=20
> > scam of international banking.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
> >
> size=3D2>
> > =
> > Bill Mc=20
> > Gunnigle</FONT></DIV>
> > <BLOCKQUOTE=20
> > style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
> > 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> > <DIV sty |
Re: [socialcredit]
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