In-Reply-To: <NCBBKCEMIKELNEFLLFEHIEMDGIAB.dan@danmorin.com>
As economics is not science, I am not at all surprised that those who
study it are no scientist :-)))
Ken.
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(EST)From: "Daniel Morin" <dan@danmorin.com>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:53:39 -0500
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In-Reply-To: <002601c63086$00668ef0$0200000a@MICROGENESIS.local>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Definition of inflation
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> Thus, and from a scientist's point of view a useful definition of
inflation that would be axiomatic and acceptable to all is:
> Inflation: A continued rise of overall price levels within a period of
time.
I disagree. What you mean by "continued"? This term is quite a vague.
Prices go up and down all the time. Is a day or a week counts as a
"continued rise" or you need a month, a quarter or a year? The next thing
is what do you mean by "overall"? This term is even more vague. Do you
mean the "Core Inflation" or the "Overall Inflation". Remember all the
timethe medias talk about "Inflation", the refer to the Core Inflation,
whichexcludes housing, energy and food costs (basically everything
significant).As a result, the Core Inflation may go down while the
"Overall Inflation"goes up. This fetish number is highly massaged to
please the politicians sothey look good while in office. Who decides what
goes in the "basket" tocompute the "overall" price of goods & services
within a period of time?Now, we have a definition according to some
arbitrary basket of goods andservices. Also, if you have an increase of
price level of 0.0000001%, doesthat count as "inflation" according to your
definition?
You make a lousy scientist from my point of view.
-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Gauvin [mailto:gauvin@wanadoo.es]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 5:13 AM
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Definition of inflation
All,
It is clear that those who accept the quoted webster definition are not
qualified to discuss money matters. Why? Because, inlfation is treated
axiomatically in the pseudo science of "economics" and therefore must be
complete and self contained i.e.self evident. Introducing a theory
requiring proof cannot be part of such an axiomatic definition particularly
when such a definition is so debated by its proponents.
Thus, and from a scientist's point of view a useful definition of
inflation that would be axiomatic and acceptable to all is:
Inflation: A continued rise of overall price levels within a period of
time.
This is consistent with reality irrespective of what causes it. As for
what causes it, the following is certainly and indisputably a candidate:
Cause of Inflation: A continued rise of overall debt beyond available
pruchasing power.
Such has certainly been the case in our recent and foolish history.
Anyone who argues otherwise, is reckless and irresponsible given that
inflation is the Prima Facie tool for maintaining poverty in the face of
potential abundance. This tool regulates the gradient of need between
abject poverty and exhorbitant wealth whereby the probability of sinking
into poverty is greater than that of gravitating towards wealth. I.e it is
stealing from the rich to give to the poor using the pen or keyboard that
writes financial policy.
Of course, there are many ways to play such a tool, for example one can
use deficit financing to obfuscate the simple underlying truth, a rather
effective way to dupe proponents of such flimsy definitions as the above
quoted webster's definition.
Best,
Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Morin
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 3:01 AM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Definition of inflation
Before making your own definition of inflation to fit your A+B model,
here is the definition of Inflation according to my Webster Dictionary:
"An increase in the volume of money and credit relative to available
goods and services resulting in a continuing rise in the general price
level."
Source: Webster Collegial Dictionary, 1996.
-----Original Message-----
From: John G Rawson [mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 3:02 PM
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit and Inflation--and related
issues
First, define inflation. Invariably, it is measured as "rising
prices", which therefore that is my, and I think our Party's, definition of
it. It may be caused by "too much money ...", when it is "demand-pull
inflation", or by other factors (e.g. rising oil prices or higher interest
rates) when it is "cost-push inflation".
And, once again, the A+B model postulates as a corollary that we have
cost-push inflation more than demand-pull. "There are factors in the
economy (B costs) that push the cost of goods above the level of consumer
purchasing power." So of course economists who deny the Douglas analkysis
don't understand where inflation is coming from.
Regards. John R.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "W. McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit and Inflation--and
relatedissues
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 23:04:53 +1300
>Hi Kenneth
> I had not really considered that question of "inflation"
>as it operated in our economy, but was intrigued by your comment
that
>socalled "economic experts" have never produced a really
satisfactory answer
>as to why it happens. I find that, on reflection, all their
"explanations"
>appear to be waffle with little or no substance to back up their
comments.
>They are very good at manipulating figures, but very short on
statisdtical
>analysis of those figures. They always have an excuse as to why
their
>forecasts are incorrect. My youngest brother has a theory that
inflation has
>nothing to do with money or product availablity, but is the direct
result of
>propaganda perpetrated by banking organisations who encourage
price >increases by simply stating that inflation is increasing and
pricesmust
>increase to compensate for it. They don't have to state any
reasons, but
>simply create an atmosphere whereby price increases are accepted.
Inflation,
>i.e. increased costs for goods and services, follows on as a
self-induced,
>self-fullfilling prophesy. Effectively "inflation" is a mind set
rather
>than an economic consequence. I cannot see how this can be
quantified, but I
>can see the logic in his argument. It certainly explains the
"stagflation"
>phenomena where costs still increased despite falling industrial
production
>and increasing unemployment.
> Bill Mc Gunnigle
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
>To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
>Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:40 AM
>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit and Inflation--and
related issues
>
>
> > In-Reply-To: <00aa01c62844$b0b3d320$6400a8c0@cdv73pbgpo6eny>
> > Hi Wallace.
> >
> > For a very long time I have been of the opinion that economists
do NOT
> > understand "inflation". Even their attempts to describe it, and
offer a
> > definition leave me much less than convinced of their
competence.
> >
> > They seem to offer no logical explanation of why prices rise.
> >
> > I have sat with fellow directors of a manufacturing company
around our
> > board room table looking at each other wondering if our
competitors would
> > let us get away with a price rise of our products.
> >
> > This was not so much an exercise in maximising our profits, as
trying
> > desperately to cover our costs. This I believe is a common
scenario,
> > common to most companies in mature markets.
> >
> > Coming to understand later the rightness of A+B has helped,
withits
> > reference to purchasing power, which was the other thing we
Directors
> > agonised over. Would our customers have the money in their
pockets when
> > they chose our products ?
> >
> > This enlightenment came too late for me and mine I fear :-))
> >
> > Ken.
> >
> >
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D359275914-13022006><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> =
Thus, and from=20
a scientist's point of view a useful definition of inflation that =
would be=20
axiomatic and acceptable to all is:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359275914-13022006><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> =
Inflation: A=20
continued rise of overall price levels within a period of =
time. =20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359275914-13022006><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359275914-13022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
disagree. What you mean by "continued"? This term is quite a =
vague. Prices go up and down all the time. Is a day or a =
week counts=20
as a "continued rise" or you need a month, a quarter or a=20
year? The next thing is what do you mean by "overall"? =
This=20
term is even more vague. Do you mean the "Core Inflation" or the =
"Overall=20
Inflation". Remember all the time the medias talk about =
"Inflation", the=20
refer to the Core Inflation, which excludes housing, energy and food =
costs=20
(basically everything significant). As a result, the Core =
Inflation may go=20
down while the "Overall Inflation" goes up. =
This fetish number=20
is highly massaged to please the politicians so they look good =
while in=20
office. Who decides what goes in the "basket" to compute the =
"overall"=20
price of goods & services within a period of =
time?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D359275914-13022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2> Now, we=20
have a definition according to some arbitrary basket of goods and =
services.=20
Also, if you have an increase of price level of 0.0000001%, =
does that=20
count as "inflation" according to your =
definition?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359275914-13022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359275914-13022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>You=20
make a lousy scientist from my point of view.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359275914-13022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D359275914-13022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Marc =
Gauvin=20
[mailto:gauvin@wanadoo.es]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 13, 2006 =
5:13=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> socialcredit@elistas.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[socialcredit]=20
Definition of inflation<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is clear that those who accept the =
quoted=20
webster definition are not qualified to discuss money matters. =
Why?=20
Because, inlfation is treated axiomatically in the pseudo science of=20
"economics" and therefore </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>must =
be complete=20
and self contained i.e.self evident. Introducing a theory =
requiring=20
proof cannot be part of such an axiomatic definition =
particularly=20
when such a definition is so debated by its proponents.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thus, and from a scientist's point of =
view a=20
useful definition of inflation that would be axiomatic and acceptable =
to all=20
is:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Inflation: A continued rise of =
overall price=20
levels within a period of time. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is consistent with reality =
irrespective of=20
what causes it. As for what causes it, the following is certainly and=20
indisputably a candidate</FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cause of Inflation: A continued rise =
of=20
overall debt beyond available pruchasing power.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Such has certainly been the case in =
our recent=20
and foolish history. Anyone who argues otherwise, is =
reckless and=20
irresponsible given that inflation is the Prima Facie tool for=20
maintaining poverty in the face of potential abundance. This =
tool=20
regulates the gradient of need between abject poverty =
and=20
exhorbitant wealth whereby the probability of sinking into poverty is =
greater=20
than that of gravitating towards wealth. I.e it is stealing from =
the=20
rich to give to the poor using the pen or keyboard that writes =
financial=20
policy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Of course, there are many ways to =
play such a=20
tool, for example one can use deficit financing to obfuscate the =
simple=20
underlying truth, a rather effective way to dupe proponents of such =
flimsy=20
definitions as the above quoted webster's definition.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Marc</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Ddan@danmorin.com href=3D"mailto:dan@danmorin.com">Daniel =
Morin</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsocialcredit@elistas.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 13, =
2006 3:01=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [socialcredit] =
Definition=20
of inflation</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Before making your own definition of inflation to fit your =
A+B model,=20
here is the definition of Inflation according to my Webster=20
Dictionary:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006>"An increase in the volume of =
money and=20
credit relative to available goods and services resulting in a =
continuing=20
rise in the general price level.</SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D703295401-13022006>"</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Source: Webster Collegial Dictionary, =
1996.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> John G Rawson=20
[mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February =
12, 2006=20
3:02 PM<BR><B>To:</B> socialcredit@elistas.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Re:=20
[socialcredit] Social Credit and Inflation--and related=20
issues<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>First, define inflation. Invariably, it is measured as =
"rising=20
prices", which therefore that is my, and I think our Party's, =
definition of it. It may be caused by "too much money ...", =
when it=20
is "demand-pull inflation", or by other factors (e.g. rising oil =
prices or=20
higher interest rates) when it is "cost-push inflation".</P>
<P>And, once again, the A+B model postulates as a corollary that =
we have=20
cost-push inflation more than demand-pull. "There are =
factors in the=20
economy (B costs) that push the cost of goods above the level of =
consumer=20
purchasing power." So of course economists who deny the Douglas =
analkysis=20
don't understand where inflation is coming from.</P>
<P>Regards. <FONT color=3D#339933 size=3D4>John =
R.</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR color=3D#a0c6e5 SIZE=3D1>
From: <I>"W. McGunnigle" =
<wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz></I><BR>Reply-To:=20
<I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>To:=20
<I><socialcredit@elistas.com></I><BR>Subject: <I>Re:=20
[socialcredit] Social Credit and Inflation--and related=20
issues</I><BR>Date: <I>Sun, 12 Feb 2006 23:04:53 =
+1300</I><BR>>Hi=20
Kenneth<BR>> I had not really considered that question of=20
"inflation"<BR>>as it operated in our economy, but was =
intrigued by=20
your comment that<BR>>socalled "economic experts" have never =
produced=20
a really satisfactory answer<BR>>as to why it happens. I find =
that,=20
on reflection, all their "explanations"<BR>>appear to be =
waffle with=20
little or no substance to back up their comments.<BR>>They =
are very=20
good at manipulating figures, but very short on=20
statisdtical<BR>>analysis of those figures. They always have =
an=20
excuse as to why their<BR>>forecasts are incorrect. My =
youngest=20
brother has a theory that inflation has<BR>>nothing to do =
with money=20
or product availablity, but is the direct result =
of<BR>>propaganda=20
perpetrated by banking organisations who encourage=20
price<BR>>increases by simply stating that inflation is =
increasing=20
and prices must<BR>>increase to compensate for it. They don't =
have to=20
state any reasons, but<BR>>simply create an atmosphere =
whereby price=20
increases are accepted. Inflation,<BR>>i.e. increased costs =
for goods=20
and services, follows on as a =
self-induced,<BR>>self-fullfilling=20
prophesy. Effectively "inflation" is a mind set =
rather<BR>>than an=20
economic consequence. I cannot see how this can be quantified, =
but=20
I<BR>>can see the logic in his argument. It certainly =
explains the=20
"stagflation"<BR>>phenomena where costs still increased =
despite=20
falling industrial production<BR>>and increasing=20
unemployment.<BR>> Bill Mc Gunnigle<BR>>----- Original =
Message=20
-----<BR>>From: "Kenneth Palmerton"=20
<kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk><BR>>To:=20
<socialcredit@elistas.com><BR>>Cc:=20
<kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk><BR>>Sent: Friday, =
February=20
10, 2006 5:40 AM<BR>>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social =
Credit and=20
Inflation--and related issues<BR>><BR>><BR>> > =
In-Reply-To:=20
<00aa01c62844$b0b3d320$6400a8c0@cdv73pbgpo6eny><BR>> =
> Hi=20
Wallace.<BR>> ><BR>> > For a very long time I have =
been of=20
the opinion that economists do NOT<BR>> > understand =
"inflation".=20
Even their attempts to describe it, and offer a<BR>> > =
definition=20
leave me much less than convinced of their competence.<BR>>=20
><BR>> > They seem to offer no logical explanation of =
why=20
prices rise.<BR>> ><BR>> > I have sat with fellow =
directors=20
of a manufacturing company around our<BR>> > board room =
table=20
looking at each other wondering if our competitors would<BR>> =
>=20
let us get away with a price rise of our products.<BR>> =
><BR>>=20
> This was not so much an exercise in maximising our profits, =
as=20
trying<BR>> > desperately to cover our costs. This I =
believe is a=20
common scenario,<BR>> > common to most companies in mature =
markets.<BR>> ><BR>> > Coming to understand later =
the=20
rightness of A+B has helped, with its<BR>> > reference to=20
purchasing power, which was the other thing we Directors<BR>> =
>=20
agonised over. Would our customers have the money in their =
pockets=20
when<BR>> > they chose our products ?<BR>> ><BR>> =
>=20
This enlightenment came too late for me and mine I fear =
:-))<BR>>=20
><BR>> > Ken.<BR>> ><BR>>=20
=
><BR>><BR>><BR>>---------------------------------------------=
------------------------<BR>>Some=20
introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are=20
=
at<BR>>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<;BR>>You're=20
subscribed to this list with the email=20
johngrawson@hotmail.com<BR>>For more information, visit=20
=
http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit<;BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR=
=20
clear=3Dall>
<HR>
Shop =91til you drop at <A =
href=3D"http://g.msn.com/8HMAENNZ/2743??PS=3D47575";=20
target=3D_top>XtraMSN Shopping</A>=20
=
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RE: [socialcredit]
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