In-Reply-To: <00a801c63211$5e7fbb60$6400a8c0@cdv73pbgpo6eny>
Hi Wally.
My apologies if I have provoked you into a monologue upon your feelings
about the Soviet system. And though I agree with you about the downside s,
that provocation was NOT my intention.
I wished to challenge the orthodox assumption, that is universally taught
in the west, that if there is an increase in the money supply, there HAS
to be an increase in prices.
I have pointed out Galbraith s job of price control in WW2 in the US,
though to suggest it now would almost certainly give the Gurus of Wall
Street apoplexy :-)))
Our experience here in the UK at that time was that Keynes invented a form
of compulsory saving, euphemistically called "Post War Credits". In which
the high wages of the workers left at home, and not unproductive and in
uniform, were syphoned off from immediate purchasing power.
So that cast iron "law" that we are all taught is not so cast iron after
all :-))
Ken.
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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:22:40 -0700
From: "Wallace M. Klinck" <wmklinck@shaw.ca>
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
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References: <memo.703877@cix.compulink.co.uk>
<001301c631a3$69b2e5c0$bad44246@cc.shawcable.net>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Definition of inflation
X-Envelope-To: kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk
X-UIDL: _1cD.M5y8DB.mta02.mx
Precisely, Joe.
I was in Russia (and the Ukraine) around 1980 prior to the "fall" of
"communism." They did not even have refrigeration. There were only two
bookstores in Moscow--with nothing displayed (although McGraw-Hill
textbooks were being unpacked in the back!) other than the works of Marx,
Lenin, and other communist authors. We flew on AeroFlot--but even our
guide, Luba, was white-knuckled and admitted she didn't like flying.. The
food in the hotel was most unsavoury--and, although the paper menu in the
dining room was decidedly "gourmet", an attempt to order revealed that
only about two dishes could actually be obtained--Stroganoff and chicken
which latter was so tough it was impossible to cut! I suggested to our
guide that it must have been run over by a Russian tank! Oddly, caviar
(which I can't stand) was served at a special dinner! Any building in the
country-side looked like a dilapidated relic from out of a previous
century. Of course, I was aware that the state elite had special
accommodation, imported food, special medical care, etc. The distribution
of income was actually much more unequal than in the West--with the
existence of the Nomenklatura, a more or less secret class of
millionaires. Sombre middle-aged men on aircraft pretended to be reading
newspapers while their eyes were trained on the back of the seat in front,
listening to whatever they could hear of other passengers' talk. A friend
of mine, raised to be sympathetic to communism, assisted in the conduct of
guided tours from Canada to the U.S.S.R. He was picked up and
interrogated at nights by the K.G.B. and shown extensive scrapbooks
listing people in Northern Alberta and asked what were their politics and
activities. Needless to say, my friend did an about face when confronted
with this priority given to "security" and "intelligence" by the "supreme
state." The socialist Utopia was seen to have "feet of clay."
The point is, the scarcity and lack of elementary freedom characteristic
of the Soviet "system" represented inefficiency in delivering abundance
and freedom to the consuming (or better, "working" or "slaving") public.
The command economic (and political) system allocated resources according
to "state" priorities and was heavily skewed toward capital vs consumer
goods--and was grossly inefficient from the standpoint of delivering
consumer satisfaction. Money was plentiful because of the Soviet system
of accountancy and controlled or administered prices, but motivational and
organizational problems resulted in shortages of real consumer goods and
services. The Soviet "economy" was more a mechanism designed for "people
control" than a genuine production system.
Social Credit recognizes that excess and unnecessary production of capital
(and wasteful consumer) goods, merely to provide purchasing-power for
purchase of earlier production, and so to "keep the system going", is
inefficiency in terms of the Social Credit objective of a
consumer-motivated economy. In both "capitalism" and "communism" an
increasing and unwarranted
emphasis is given to capital production--as a means of "people control."
So although prices were controlled in a system of central
state-administered "production" in communist U.S.S.R., this was merely a
masking of inflation by arbitrary means. The price to be paid in real
terms was scarcity, misdirection of resources and political tyranny.
Thus, according to the Social Credit concept of "inflation" as a measure
or reflection of inefficiency, the U.S.S.R. was characterized by a very
high level of "inflation."
The inefficiency and misdirection of resources toward wasteful and
destructive (e.g. war) ends in the West is a measure of the real
"inflation" in this part of the world. Because the consumer is charged in
prices with capital depreciation but not credited with capital
appreciation the consumer is robbed of the real benefits of modern
technology by being allowed to access the results which flow from it only
by increasing work. The citizenry is, thereby, denied the increased
potential leisure by which to enjoy not only the actual, but also the
potential, real abundance which does, and which might, flow from the ever
modernizing productive system. All existing systems which employ tools to
produce goods and services are "capitalist." They merely vary in degree
of centralized control and administration. They all are firmly based upon
the concept of work as the essential requisite and justification for
consumption--as I have previously noted, upon the unChristian (and
un-Social Credit) notion of Salvation through Works, as opposed to the
concept of Salvation through Grace.
Social Credit is distributist and offers a very different dispensation,
where access to wealth is increasingly based upon right by general
inheritance and increasingly less upon industrial, commercial or
institutional "work", now essentially forced upon the individual by the
necessity of survival in the context of excess overall financial
costs--"payable" only by means of exponentially expanding debt claims
against the future.
Wally
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Definition of inflation
> Who wants to live in any of those Russian apartments and have a lifelong
> diet of only one kind of bread?
>
> Joe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 12:56 PM
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Definition of inflation
>
>
>> In-Reply-To: <NCBBKCEMIKELNEFLLFEHIEFGGIAB.dan@danmorin.com>
>> Hi Dan.
>>
>> If Webster is to be elevated to the rank of biblical truth, then maybe
>> you
>> can offer me an explanation of why it was that in the USSR between 1917
>> and 1970 the price of a loaf of bread, and the rent of a Moscow flat did
>> not increase.
>>
>> Despite the working population having huge amounts of un-spendable
money>> in their bank accounts.
>>
>> This was a classic case of increasing money supply, with inadequate
goods>> for sale.
>>
>> Why no price rise ?
>>
>> Ken.
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>>
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>> (EST)From: "Daniel Morin" <dan@danmorin.com>
>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 21:01:58 -0500
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>> In-Reply-To: <BAY21-F27F9B18DD2F90F8C2C9A6BD040@phx.gbl>
>> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Definition of inflation
>> X-Envelope-To: kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk
>> X-UIDL: _egH.Hs_7DB.mta02.mx
>>
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>>
>> Before making your own definition of inflation to fit your A+B model,
>> here
>> is the definition of Inflation according to my Webster Dictionary:
>>
>> "An increase in the volume of money and credit relative to available
>> goods
>> and services resulting in a continuing rise in the general price level."
>>
>> Source: Webster Collegial Dictionary, 1996.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John G Rawson [mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 3:02 PM
>> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit and Inflation--and related
>> issues
>>
>>
>> First, define inflation. Invariably, it is measured as "rising
>> prices",
>> which therefore that is my, and I think our Party's, definition of it.
>> It
>> may be caused by "too much money ...", when it is "demand-pull
>> inflation",
>> or by other factors (e.g. rising oil prices or higher interest rates)
>> when
>> it is "cost-push inflation".
>>
>> And, once again, the A+B model postulates as a corollary that we have
>> cost-push inflation more than demand-pull. "There are factors in the
>> economy (B costs) that push the cost of goods above the level of
consumer>> purchasing power." So of course economists who deny the Douglas
analkysis>> don't understand where inflation is coming from.
>>
>> Regards. John R.
>>
>>
>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------->
-
>> -
>> From: "W. McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
>> Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit and Inflation--and related
>> issues
>> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 23:04:53 +1300
>> >Hi Kenneth
>> > I had not really considered that question of "inflation"
>> >as it operated in our economy, but was intrigued by your comment
>> that
>> >socalled "economic experts" have never produced a really
>> satisfactory
>> answer
>> >as to why it happens. I find that, on reflection, all their
>> "explanations"
>> >appear to be waffle with little or no substance to back up their
>> comments.
>> >They are very good at manipulating figures, but very short on
>> statisdtical
>> >analysis of those figures. They always have an excuse as to why
>> their
>> >forecasts are incorrect. My youngest brother has a theory that
>> inflation has
>> >nothing to do with money or product availablity, but is the direct
>> result of
>> >propaganda perpetrated by banking organisations who encourage price
>> >increases by simply stating that inflation is increasing and prices
>> must
>> >increase to compensate for it. They don't have to state any
reasons,>> but
>> >simply create an atmosphere whereby price increases are accepted.
>> Inflation,
>> >i.e. increased costs for goods and services, follows on as a
>> self-induced,
>> >self-fullfilling prophesy. Effectively "inflation" is a mind set
>> rather >than an economic consequence. I cannot see how this can be
>> quantified,but I
>> >can see the logic in his argument. It certainly explains the
>> "stagflation"
>> >phenomena where costs still increased despite falling industrial
>> production
>> >and increasing unemployment.
>> > Bill Mc Gunnigle
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
>> >To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> >Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
>> >Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:40 AM
>> >Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit and Inflation--and
related>> issues
>> >
>> >
>> > > In-Reply-To: <00aa01c62844$b0b3d320$6400a8c0@cdv73pbgpo6eny>
>> > > Hi Wallace.
>> > >
>> > > For a very long time I have been of the opinion that economists
>> do
>> NOT
>> > > understand "inflation". Even their attempts to describe it, and
>> offer a
>> > > definition leave me much less than convinced of their
competence.>> > >
>> > > They seem to offer no logical explanation of why prices rise.
>> > >
>> > > I have sat with fellow directors of a manufacturing company
>> around
>> our
>> > > board room table looking at each other wondering if our
> competitors
>> would
>> > > let us get away with a price rise of our products.
>> > >
>> > > This was not so much an exercise in maximising our profits, as
>> trying
>> > > desperately to cover our costs. This I believe is a common
>> scenario, > > common to most companies in mature markets.
>> > >
>> > > Coming to understand later the rightness of A+B has helped, with
>> its > > reference to purchasing power, which was the other thing we
>> Directors
>> > > agonised over. Would our customers have the money in their
>> pockets
>> when
>> > > they chose our products ?
>> > >
>> > > This enlightenment came too late for me and mine I fear :-))
>> > >
>> > > Ken.
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list
are>> at >http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> >You're subscribed to this list with the email
>> johngrawson@hotmail.com
>> >For more information, visit
http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit>;>
>>
>>
>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------->
-
>> -
>> --
>> Shop 'til you drop at XtraMSN Shopping
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email dan@danmorin.com
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email kenpalmerton@cix.co.uk
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>
>> ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C63017.90412F90
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>> charset="iso-8859-1"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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>> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>> charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
>> <BODY>
>> <DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006><FONT face=3DArial
>> color=3D#0000ff =
>> size=3D2>Before=20
>> making your own definition of inflation to fit your A+B model, here is =
>> the=20
>> definition of Inflation according to my Webster=20
>> Dictionary:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
>> <DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006><FONT face=3DArial
>> color=3D#0000ff =
>>
>> size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
>> <DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006>"An increase in the volume of =
>> money and=20
>> credit relative to available goods and services resulting in a =
>> continuing rise=20
>> in the general price level.</SPAN><SPAN =
>> class=3D703295401-13022006>"</SPAN></DIV>
>> <DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006></SPAN> </DIV>
>> <DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006><FONT face=3DArial
>> color=3D#0000ff =
>>
>> size=3D2>Source: Webster Collegial Dictionary, 1996.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
>> style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff
2px
>> =
>> solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
>> face=3DTahoma=20
>> size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> John G Rawson=20
>> [mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 12,
=
>> 2006=20
>> 3:02 PM<BR><B>To:</B> socialcredit@elistas.com<BR><B>Subject:</B>
>> Re:=20
>> [socialcredit] Social Credit and Inflation--and related=20
>> issues<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
>> <DIV>
>> <P>First, define inflation. Invariably, it is measured as =
>> "rising=20
>> prices", which therefore that is my, and I think our Party's, =
>> definition=20
>> of it. It may be caused by "too much money ...", when it is =
>> "demand-pull=20
>> inflation", or by other factors (e.g. rising oil prices or higher =
>> interest=20
>> rates) when it is "cost-push inflation".</P>
>> <P>And, once again, the A+B model postulates as a corollary that we =
>> have=20
>> cost-push inflation more than demand-pull. "There are factors
in >> =
>> the=20
>> economy (B costs) that push the cost of goods above the level of =
>> consumer=20
>> purchasing power." So of course economists who deny the Douglas =
>> analkysis=20
>> don't understand where inflation is coming from.</P>
>> <P>Regards. <FONT color=3D#339933 size=3D4>John =
>> R.</FONT></P>
>> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
>> style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5
>> 2px =
>> solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT=20
>> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
>> <HR color=3D#a0c6e5 SIZE=3D1>
>> From: <I>"W. McGunnigle" =
>> <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz></I><BR>Reply-To:=20
>> <I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>To:=20
>> <I><socialcredit@elistas.com></I><BR>Subject: <I>Re: =
>> [socialcredit]=20
>> Social Credit and Inflation--and related issues</I><BR>Date:
<I>Sun, >> =
>> 12 Feb=20
>> 2006 23:04:53 +1300</I><BR>>Hi Kenneth<BR>> I had not
really=20>> considered that question of "inflation"<BR>>as it
operated in our >> =
>>
>> economy, but was intrigued by your comment that<BR>>socalled =
>> "economic=20
>> experts" have never produced a really satisfactory answer<BR>>as
=>> to why=20
>> it happens. I find that, on reflection, all their=20
>> "explanations"<BR>>appear to be waffle with little or no =
>> substance to=20
>> back up their comments.<BR>>They are very good at manipulating =
>> figures,=20
>> but very short on statisdtical<BR>>analysis of those figures. =
>> They always=20
>> have an excuse as to why their<BR>>forecasts are incorrect. My =
>> youngest=20
>> brother has a theory that inflation has<BR>>nothing to do with =
>> money or=20
>> product availablity, but is the direct result
of<BR>>propaganda=20>> perpetrated by banking organisations who
encourage =>> price<BR>>increases by=20
>> simply stating that inflation is increasing and prices =
>> must<BR>>increase=20
>> to compensate for it. They don't have to state any reasons,=20
>> but<BR>>simply create an atmosphere whereby price increases are =
>> accepted.=20
>> Inflation,<BR>>i.e. increased costs for goods and services, =
>> follows on as=20
>> a self-induced,<BR>>self-fullfilling prophesy. Effectively =
>> "inflation" is=20
>> a mind set rather<BR>>than an economic consequence. I cannot see
=>> how this=20
>> can be quantified, but I<BR>>can see the logic in his argument. =
>> It=20
>> certainly explains the "stagflation"<BR>>phenomena where costs =
>> still=20
>> increased despite falling industrial production<BR>>and =
>> increasing=20
>> unemployment.<BR>> Bill Mc Gunnigle<BR>>----- Original
Message >> =
>>
>> -----<BR>>From: "Kenneth Palmerton"=20
>> <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk><BR>>To:=20
>> <socialcredit@elistas.com><BR>>Cc:=20
>> <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk><BR>>Sent: Friday, =
>> February 10,=20
>> 2006 5:40 AM<BR>>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit and=20
>> Inflation--and related issues<BR>><BR>><BR>> > =
>> In-Reply-To:=20
>> <00aa01c62844$b0b3d320$6400a8c0@cdv73pbgpo6eny><BR>>
>
>> =
>> Hi=20
>> Wallace.<BR>> ><BR>> > For a very long time I have been
=>> of the=20
>> opinion that economists do NOT<BR>> > understand "inflation".
=>> Even=20
>> their attempts to describe it, and offer a<BR>> > definition =
>> leave me=20
>> much less than convinced of their competence.<BR>> ><BR>> =
>> > They=20
>> seem to offer no logical explanation of why prices rise.<BR>>=20
>> ><BR>> > I have sat with fellow directors of a =
>> manufacturing=20
>> company around our<BR>> > board room table looking at each =
>> other=20
>> wondering if our competitors would<BR>> > let us get away
with >> =
>> a price=20
>> rise of our products.<BR>> ><BR>> > This was not so
much >> =
>> an=20
>> exercise in maximising our profits, as trying<BR>> > =
>> desperately to=20
>> cover our costs. This I believe is a common scenario,<BR>> > =
>> common to=20
>> most companies in mature markets.<BR>> ><BR>> > Coming =
>> to=20
>> understand later the rightness of A+B has helped, with its<BR>> =
>> >=20
>> reference to purchasing power, which was the other thing we=20
>> Directors<BR>> > agonised over. Would our customers have the =
>> money in=20
>> their pockets when<BR>> > they chose our products ?<BR>>=20
>> ><BR>> > This enlightenment came too late for me and mine
I >> =
>> fear=20
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