| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Definition of inflation | | Date: | Wednesday, February 15, 2006 21:37:18 (-0800) | | From: | Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu @....ca>
|
| In reply to: | Message 3421 (written by Kenneth Palmerton) |
Hello Ken,
I'm obviously not an 'economist', Ken, but it seems to me that what is being
issued as bank credit is issued for the purposes of 'production', and
becomes accounted for as a firm's 'costs'. These 'costs' have to somehow
be fully recovered in 'prices' through sales into final 'consumption', or
the loans that initiated them can't ever be totally repaid.
As I understand it, Social Credit defines inflation as "a rise in prices
accompanied by a commensurate rise in the supply of money ". A general
ongoing rise in prices alone, without a commensurate rise in the money
supply, would seem to me to be somewhat of an impossibility. An increasing
number of goods couldn't be sold at the prices asked, since they can't
'fetch' what obviously isn't there to be fetched
So it would seem to me that 'inflation' in regards to each of us as
'consumers' just means that it takes more money to purchase what less money
would purchase before. While for 'firms' in general, if there wasn't more
money available those higher prices couldn't be obtained. And since it now
takes them, too, continually more money to purchase what less money would
before, i.e. to fund ongoing operations, increased 'profit' in any 'real'
sense (of what it should be indicating) is a cruel illusion.
Now as to inflation's 'causes', I think we'd have to go back to A+B, and
'labour displacement', what 'profit' really is, and what is really
happening in relation to what modern 'cost-accounting', (without the Social
Credit 'corrections' in place), incompletely tells us is happening. For the
moment, sufficeth to say if we had a rise in the money supply and it was
distributed to 'Consumers' in a way WITHOUT causing a commensurate rise in
prices, something I believe is quite possible to do, we'd not be concerned
with 'inflation', but finally be enjoying a genuine 'prosperity'. I don't
think we need to limit consumer choice, nor stifle individual freedoms, nor
suppress individual initiative and enterprise, nor replace the true,
primary function of any economic system, (the delivery of needed and desired
goods and services), with the perverted provision of endless 'work', all
things the Soviet system unquestionably did, just to accomplish that.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Definition of inflation
> In-Reply-To: <001301c631a3$69b2e5c0$bad44246@cc.shawcable.net>
> Hi Joe.
>
> I completely agree with the gist of what you say. My point was not about
> support for a command economy.
>
> It was about the assumption that we have rammed down our throats by
> orthodox economists that if there is an increase in the money supply,
> there HAS to be an increase in prices.
>
> I believe that they do NOT KNOW how inflation comes about. All the
> explanations I have come across have exceptions, some very obvious, like
> the control of prices, some more obscure, like the example I quoted of
> company decision making.
>
> Ken.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
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> Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:15:34 -0800
> From: Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Message-id: <001301c631a3$69b2e5c0$bad44246@cc.shawcable.net>
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> References: <memo.703877@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Definition of inflation
> X-Envelope-To: kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk
> X-UIDL: _PaC.BMo8DB.mta02.mx
>
> Who wants to live in any of those Russian apartments and have a lifelong
> diet of only one kind of bread?
>
> Joe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 12:56 PM
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Definition of inflation
>
>
> > In-Reply-To: <NCBBKCEMIKELNEFLLFEHIEFGGIAB.dan@danmorin.com>
> > Hi Dan.
> >
> > If Webster is to be elevated to the rank of biblical truth, then maybe
> you> can offer me an explanation of why it was that in the USSR between
> 1917> and 1970 the price of a loaf of bread, and the rent of a Moscow flat
> did> not increase.
> >
> > Despite the working population having huge amounts of un-spendable
money
> > in their bank accounts.
> >
> > This was a classic case of increasing money supply, with inadequate
goods
> > for sale.
> >
> > Why no price rise ?
> >
> > Ken.
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> >
> > X-Envelope-From:
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from
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> > (EST)From: "Daniel Morin" <dan@danmorin.com>
> > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 21:01:58 -0500
> > Message-ID: <NCBBKCEMIKELNEFLLFEHIEFGGIAB.dan@danmorin.com>
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> > In-Reply-To: <BAY21-F27F9B18DD2F90F8C2C9A6BD040@phx.gbl>
> > Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Definition of inflation
> > X-Envelope-To: kenpalmerton@cixcouk.cix.co.uk
> > X-UIDL: _egH.Hs_7DB.mta02.mx
> >
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> >
> > Before making your own definition of inflation to fit your A+B model,
> here> is the definition of Inflation according to my Webster Dictionary:
> >
> > "An increase in the volume of money and credit relative to available
> goods> and services resulting in a continuing rise in the general price
> level.">
> > Source: Webster Collegial Dictionary, 1996.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John G Rawson [mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 3:02 PM
> > To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit and Inflation--and related
> > issues
> >
> >
> > First, define inflation. Invariably, it is measured as "rising
> prices",> which therefore that is my, and I think our Party's, definition
> of it. It> may be caused by "too much money ...", when it is "demand-pull
> inflation",> or by other factors (e.g. rising oil prices or higher
> interest rates) when> it is "cost-push inflation".
> >
> > And, once again, the A+B model postulates as a corollary that we have
> > cost-push inflation more than demand-pull. "There are factors in the
> > economy (B costs) that push the cost of goods above the level of
consumer
> > purchasing power." So of course economists who deny the Douglas
analkysis
> > don't understand where inflation is coming from.
> >
> > Regards. John R.
> >
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> > -
> > From: "W. McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
> > Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit and Inflation--and related
> > issues
> > Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 23:04:53 +1300
> > >Hi Kenneth
> > > I had not really considered that question of "inflation"
> > >as it operated in our economy, but was intrigued by your comment
> that> >socalled "economic experts" have never produced a really
> satisfactory> answer
> > >as to why it happens. I find that, on reflection, all their
> > "explanations"
> > >appear to be waffle with little or no substance to back up their
> > comments.
> > >They are very good at manipulating figures, but very short on
> > statisdtical
> > >analysis of those figures. They always have an excuse as to why
> their> >forecasts are incorrect. My youngest brother has a theory that
> > inflation has
> > >nothing to do with money or product availablity, but is the direct
> > result of
> > >propaganda perpetrated by banking organisations who encourage price
> > >increases by simply stating that inflation is increasing and prices
> > must
> > >increase to compensate for it. They don't have to state any
reasons,
> > but
> > >simply create an atmosphere whereby price increases are accepted.
> > Inflation,
> > >i.e. increased costs for goods and services, follows on as a
> > self-induced,
> > >self-fullfilling prophesy. Effectively "inflation" is a mind set
> > rather >than an economic consequence. I cannot see how this can be
> > quantified,but I
> > >can see the logic in his argument. It certainly explains the
> > "stagflation"
> > >phenomena where costs still increased despite falling industrial
> > production
> > >and increasing unemployment.
> > > Bill Mc Gunnigle
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> > >To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > >Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> > >Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:40 AM
> > >Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit and Inflation--and
related
> > issues
> > >
> > >
> > > > In-Reply-To: <00aa01c62844$b0b3d320$6400a8c0@cdv73pbgpo6eny>
> > > > Hi Wallace.
> > > >
> > > > For a very long time I have been of the opinion that economists
> do> NOT
> > > > understand "inflation". Even their attempts to describe it, and
> > offer a
> > > > definition leave me much less than convinced of their
competence.
> > > >
> > > > They seem to offer no logical explanation of why prices rise.
> > > >
> > > > I have sat with fellow directors of a manufacturing company
> around> our
> > > > board room table looking at each other wondering if our
> competitors
> > would
> > > > let us get away with a price rise of our products.
> > > >
> > > > This was not so much an exercise in maximising our profits, as
> > trying
> > > > desperately to cover our costs. This I believe is a common
> > scenario, > > common to most companies in mature markets.
> > > >
> > > > Coming to understand later the rightness of A+B has helped, with
> > its > > reference to purchasing power, which was the other thing we
> > Directors
> > > > agonised over. Would our customers have the money in their
> pockets> when
> > > > they chose our products ?
> > > >
> > > > This enlightenment came too late for me and mine I fear :-))
> > > >
> > > > Ken.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------->
> >Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are> at
> >http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium>; >You're subscribed
> to this list with the email johngrawson@hotmail.com> >For more
> information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit>;
> >
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> > -
> > --
> > Shop 'til you drop at XtraMSN Shopping
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
> > http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> > You're subscribed to this list with the email dan@danmorin.com
> > For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
> > http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> > You're subscribed to this list with the email kenpalmerton@cix.co.uk
> > For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C63017.90412F90
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> >
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> > <BODY>
> > <DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006><FONT face=3DArial
> > color=3D#0000ff =
> > size=3D2>Before=20
> > making your own definition of inflation to fit your A+B model, here is =
> > the=20
> > definition of Inflation according to my Webster=20
> > Dictionary:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
> > <DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006><FONT face=3DArial
> > color=3D#0000ff =
> >
> > size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
> > <DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006>"An increase in the volume of =
> > money and=20
> > credit relative to available goods and services resulting in a =
> > continuing rise=20
> > in the general price level.</SPAN><SPAN =
> > class=3D703295401-13022006>"</SPAN></DIV>
> > <DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006></SPAN> </DIV>
> > <DIV><SPAN class=3D703295401-13022006><FONT face=3DArial
> > color=3D#0000ff =
> >
> > size=3D2>Source: Webster Collegial Dictionary, 1996.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
> > <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
> > style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff
> 2px
> > =
> > solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> > <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
> > face=3DTahoma=20
> > size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> John G Rawson=20
> > [mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 12,
=
> > 2006=20
> > 3:02 PM<BR><B>To:</B> socialcredit@elistas.com<BR><B>Subject:</B>
> > Re:=20
> > [socialcredit] Social Credit and Inflation--and related=20
> > issues<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV>
> > <P>First, define inflation. Invariably, it is measured as =
> > "rising=20
> > prices", which therefore that is my, and I think our Party's, =
> > definition=20
> > of it. It may be caused by "too much money ...", when it is =
> > "demand-pull=20
> > inflation", or by other factors (e.g. rising oil prices or higher =
> > interest=20
> > rates) when it is "cost-push inflation".</P>
> > <P>And, once again, the A+B model postulates as a corollary that we =
> > have=20
> > cost-push inflation more than demand-pull. "There are factors in
> => the=20
> > economy (B costs) that push the cost of goods above the level of =
> > consumer=20
> > purchasing power." So of course economists who deny the Douglas =
> > analkysis=20
> > don't understand where inflation is coming from.</P>
> > <P>Regards. <FONT color=3D#339933 size=3D4>John =
> > R.</FONT></P>
> > <BLOCKQUOTE=20
> > style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5
> > 2px =
> > solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT=20
> > style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
> > <HR color=3D#a0c6e5 SIZE=3D1>
> > From: <I>"W. McGunnigle" =
> > <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz></I><BR>Reply-To:=20
> > <I>socialcredit@elistas.com</I><BR>To:=20
> > <I><socialcredit@elistas.com></I><BR>Subject: <I>Re: =
> > [socialcredit]=20
> > Social Credit and Inflation--and related issues</I><BR>Date: <I>Sun,
> => 12 Feb=20
> > 2006 23:04:53 +1300</I><BR>>Hi Kenneth<BR>> I had not
really=20
> > considered that question of "inflation"<BR>>as it operated in our
> =>
> > economy, but was intrigued by your comment that<BR>>socalled =
> > "economic=20
> > experts" have never produced a really satisfactory answer<BR>>as
=
> > to why=20
> > it happens. I find that, on reflection, all their=20
> > "explanations"<BR>>appear to be waffle with little or no =
> > substance to=20
> > back up their comments.<BR>>They are very good at manipulating =
> > figures,=20
> > but very short on statisdtical<BR>>analysis of those figures. =
> > They always=20
> > have an excuse as to why their<BR>>forecasts are incorrect. My =
> > youngest=20
> > brother has a theory that inflation has<BR>>nothing to do with =
> > money or=20
> > product availablity, but is the direct result
of<BR>>propaganda=20
> > perpetrated by banking organisations who encourage =
> > price<BR>>increases by=20
> > simply stating that inflation is increasing and prices =
> > must<BR>>increase=20
> > to compensate for it. They don't have to state any reasons,=20
> > but<BR>>simply create an atmosphere whereby price increases are =
> > accepted.=20
> > Inflation,<BR>>i.e. increased costs for goods and services, =
> > follows on as=20
> > a self-induced,<BR>>self-fullfilling prophesy. Effectively =
> > "inflation" is=20
> > a mind set rather<BR>>than an economic consequence. I cannot see
=
> > how this=20
> > can be quantified, but I<BR>>can see the logic in his argument. =
> > It=20
> > certainly explains the "stagflation"<BR>>phenomena where costs =
> > still=20
> > increased despite falling industrial production<BR>>and =
> > increasing=20
> > unemployment.<BR>> Bill Mc Gunnigle<BR>>----- Original Message
> =>
> > -----<BR>>From: "Kenneth Palmerton"=20
> > <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk><BR>>To:=20
> > <socialcredit@elistas.com><BR>>Cc:=20
> > <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk><BR>>Sent: Friday, =
> > February 10,=20
> > 2006 5:40 AM<BR>>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Social Credit and=20
> > Inflation--and related issues<BR>><BR>><BR>> > =
> > In-Reply-To:=20
> > <00aa01c62844$b0b3d320$6400a8c0@cdv73pbgpo6eny><BR>>
> >
> > =
> > Hi=20
> > Wallace.<BR>> ><BR>> > For a very long time I have been
=
> > of the=20
> > opinion that economists do NOT<BR>> > understand "inflation".
=
> > Even=20
> > their attempts to describe it, and offer a<BR>> > definition =
> > leave me=20
> > much less than convinced of their competence.<BR>> ><BR>> =
> > > They=20
> > seem to offer no logical explanation of why prices rise.<BR>>=20
> > ><BR>> > I have sat with fellow directors of a =
> > manufacturing=20
> > company around our<BR>> > board room table looking at each =
> > other=20
> > wondering if our competitors would<BR>> > let us get away with
> => a price=20
> > rise of our products.<BR>> ><BR>> > This was not so much
> => an=20
> > exercise in maximising our profits, as trying<BR>> > =
> > desperately to=20
> > cover our costs. This I believe is a common scenario,<BR>> > =
> > common to=20
> > most companies in mature markets.<BR>> ><BR>> > Coming =
> > to=20
> > understand later the rightness of A+B has helped, with its<BR>> =
> > >=20
> > reference to purchasing power, which was the other thing we=20
> > Directors<BR>> > agonised over. Would our customers have the =
> > money in=20
> > their pockets when<BR>> > they chose our products ?<BR>>=20
> > ><BR>> > This enlightenment came too late for me and mine I
> => fear=20
> > :-))<BR>> ><BR>> > Ken.<BR>> ><BR>>=20
> > =
> >
>
><BR>><BR>><BR>>---------------------------------------------=>
> ------------------------<BR>>Some=20
> > introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are=20
> > at<BR>>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium<;BR>>You're
> =
> >
> > subscribed to this list with the email =
> > johngrawson@hotmail.com<BR>>For=20
> > more information, visit=20
> > =
> >
> http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit<;BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR
> > =
> > =20
> > clear=3Dall>
> > <HR>
> > Shop =91til you drop at <A =
> > href=3D"http://g.msn.com/8HMAENNZ/2743??PS=3D47575";=20
> > target=3D_top>XtraMSN Shopping</A>=20
> > =
> >
>
<P><PRE>-----------------------------------------------------------------=>
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> > Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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> > <P></P></PRE>
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> >
> >
> >
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<p><pre>-------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > You're subscribed to this list with the email kenpalmerton@cix.co.uk
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> > ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C63017.90412F90--
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> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
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Re: [socialcredit]
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